17 year old son planning on tricking us to spend night with gf -gf’s parents away

[Anonymous]

It sounds like you'd rather keep the peace....I don't know what I would do so I commiserate with you but I would sit him down and explain that he's not fooling anyone. He wants you to treat him like an adult and he wants attention.

[Anonymous]

OP, he obviously slept over at his GFs. Don't let him spin this crazy tale and confuse you. He did exactly what he planned to, and is doing his damnedest to pull one over on you. Punish him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:if his phone was at the friends house, and you saw the dots- why do you think he saw them? You said he left phone and went out

Clearly at time he texted that he was spending the night he still had his phone with him. He was out with a group of friends which included the friend with whom he said he was spending the night. I responded immediately and saw the 3 dots showing that he was responding but nothing came through.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is the OP. First of all thanks for all the very helpful perspectives.
To address the texts issue, he said his phone crashed and he’d lost access to the Appleid-this was the day before. He asked me for the password and I sent it to him. When he reconnected his texts started coming to my phone just at the time he was making his plans. At first I though they were my 9 year old’s texts which do come to my phone but I saw some non-9year old language popping up so I opened the texts.
I sort of panicked to be honest. I didn’t want him to know I’d read his texts. He’s become so so prickly these days and Im walking on egg shells all the time. I was nervous about telling him. We’d just had a huge huge argument just 2 days prior because he simply refused to go on our long planned family holiday and told us the day we were supposed to leave. His sisters (11 and 9, who think the world of him) were in tears begging him to come. He was adamant -clearly because he’d planned all these events with his gf while her parents were away. To cut a very long and painful story short, his sisters really wanted him to be with us so we rescheduled the trip but it was a very ugly situation -his sisters crying and begging him to come, us reasoning that it was a planned family holiday and he should prioritize family etc. but he just stood there uncaring and sticking to his guns which is so unlike him-he’s such a soft, kind hearted boy.
Anyway we had formed an uneasy truce (the protecting the relationship before they leave ) so I just did not want to bring the texts up. I changed the settings in my phone so I could no longer see his texts and just reminded him before he left that he needed to be home by 12 because he insisted on taking his car and that if he felt he would break the 12 curfew to leave his car and uber home. He said he would definitely be back by 12 and, because he’d also said in the texts that he did not feel comfortable carrying out the plans, which is more in line with his usual behavior, I thought he’d rethought them and decided against them.
At 12:15 I get a text saying he’s spending the night at his friend’s. My antennae were immediately raised because of what I’d read in the texts. I reminded him that sleepovers were always off the table and that he could hang out for a while since he said there were other friends there but to be home by 2.
I saw the dots appear when someone is about to reply but he clearly decided to just ignore me and he never responded so I called and he didn’t answer. I sent a text saying I was not going to bother home anymore but that I expected him home by 2 or to expect to stay home for NYE. Again I saw the dots but no reply came. That was why I went to the friend’s house.
Anyway as you all know I decided to come back home.
He arrived home at 11 am all antagonistic about the texts I’d sent him “after he’d fallen asleep”. He said he did nothing wrong, that he’d told me he was spending the night and had promptly fallen asleep.
I know he is lying because I know he saw my texts evidenced by the dots that appear when the respondent is replying (I saw them after both texts but no reply arrived) but he chose to ignore me. I have no real proof that he slept at his gf’s house except the texts. It’s conceivable that they all (gf included) slept at the friend’s house. It is also a conceivable that he executed his original plan and left the phone at his friend’s and collected it this morning or that his friend drove it to him and he simply drove home. I don’t know.

I haven’t yet responded to him. I told him I was tired and would discuss later.
I have no idea what to do. Give him the benefit of the huge doubt and accept that he slept at his friend’s and just penalize for not responding to my texts when I know he received them so that he could spend the night -which is a hard rule at our house except if it’s a designated vacation away with friends?
This is my first go round. I do not want to push him away but I do not want him to think he can flaunt all rules because he’s going on 18 in 9 months. I know it’s normal for teens to rebel but his rebellion covers a lot of things here and I had not even considered the statutory rape issue. I just thought it was disrespectful to defy her parents and stay when they had specifically said he could not.

I am stumped.

You are telling him what he “should” prioritize because it’s what you prioritize. Consider that his priorities might be different than yours at the moment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if his phone was at the friends house, and you saw the dots- why do you think he saw them? You said he left phone and went out

Clearly at time he texted that he was spending the night he still had his phone with him. He was out with a group of friends which included the friend with whom he said he was spending the night. I responded immediately and saw the 3 dots showing that he was responding but nothing came through.

Or he really did leave his phone at his friend’s house with instructions for his friend to text you at 12:15, and then the friend started to respond but decided not to. Not that that’s any better but your son truly may not have seen your texts. It was probably his friend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thing that actually jumped out at me from your post, OP, was that he "berated" you. That's totally unacceptable. Nobody should berate you. Not ever. The lack of respect in the form of insults and outright lies -- this would be a cause of grave concern for me.

How would you react if you husband berated you or lied to you? Without suggesting that your reaction should be the same, this is a useful frame of reference. Because you are preparing to launch this person into adulthood, and your reaction should therefore be somehow congruent with another trusted adult berating your and lying to you.

As for the posters who ask you to focus on your relationship with your child as you prepare to send him off -- I agree, but I see the other side of this: Do you want to have a relationship with him where he lies to you, does not respect your wishes, berates you -- and you just let him, because you don't want to rock the boat?

OP, you deserve more from your son. You deserve more from yourself.

It's time for a frank conversation with your son. The question shouldn't be what power you're going to wield in order to coerce him into compliance (i.e. "consequences", i.e. punishment.) Rather: what kind of relationship do you want to have with each other? Tell him how it feels to be deceived. Tell him how it feels to be insulted. Tell him that you will always love him, and also you will not tolerate being treated that way. Or will you? Be honest with yourself: What are you willing / not willing to put up with? What are the very real and likely consequences here? Not, what am I going to do to him if he doesn't comply, but, how am I going to protect myself in a relationship in which the other party is not being respectful?

On the cusp of adulthood, I would insist on being respected, and I would also look hard in the mirror and see if I am treating my child with the respect I am asking for myself. Are you listening to him? Or are you dishing out rules and punishments in a way that might feel infantilizing or arbitrary? The question isn't whether the rules are restrictive or permissive, but why is this about rules at all? There is an underlying "why" to all of the rules. Is your child aware of these? Do you talk about it? Does he take responsibility for his actions?

Our job is to launch them into adulthood. We don't do it all at once, in one fell swoop. At 17+, he should be making his own decisions and communicating with you, and you should be there as a sounding board, to help his baby-adult brain connect dots he may have missed, to help him see what he may have missed. We want them to be able to come to us for advice, we want them to make their own good decisions.

I don't care a whit whether he sleeps here or there, is home at 9pm or 1am or 7am the next day. What I care about it how he treats the people in his life, and in particular the people who support him and love him and on whom he depends.

OP here. Thank you. This is such a helpful post which is helping me to focus on the real issues. This is why I posted in the first place. To see if I was off base. It I was being unrealistic in my expectations for a teenage his age and your point about whether my parenting is infantilizing him/arbitrary lies at the heart of what I was trying to convey in my OP.

I'm glad you saw this OP, this is really the best answer and most of what you need to know. A lot of this is normal, I did similar things right around this age, but that doesn't mean it's okay. My parents responded very very similarly to this poster with a focus on the hurt it causes and the deception. We worked together on solutions and what would happen going forward. They treated me like a human being, with needs/wants (to see my friends, have freedom, whatever - for your son, it's to see a girl he is probably very infatuated and maybe even in love with), but also were very clear on boundaries within our family and the expectations of how I am expected to treat others including them. This mutual respect continues in our relationship today. You've got this OP! It will probably be multiple convos, not just one. And you need your husband on board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if his phone was at the friends house, and you saw the dots- why do you think he saw them? You said he left phone and went out

Clearly at time he texted that he was spending the night he still had his phone with him. He was out with a group of friends which included the friend with whom he said he was spending the night. I responded immediately and saw the 3 dots showing that he was responding but nothing came through.

Or he really did leave his phone at his friend’s house with instructions for his friend to text you at 12:15, and then the friend started to respond but decided not to. Not that that’s any better but your son truly may not have seen your texts. It was probably his friend.

OP here. That’s possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if his phone was at the friends house, and you saw the dots- why do you think he saw them? You said he left phone and went out

Clearly at time he texted that he was spending the night he still had his phone with him. He was out with a group of friends which included the friend with whom he said he was spending the night. I responded immediately and saw the 3 dots showing that he was responding but nothing came through.

Or he really did leave his phone at his friend’s house with instructions for his friend to text you at 12:15, and then the friend started to respond but decided not to. Not that that’s any better but your son truly may not have seen your texts. It was probably his friend.

Another vote that it was the friend responding potentially.

I think you need to rethink the no sleepover rule with his male friends. That makes no sense. And if he is occasionally drinking or the like, I wouldn't want him driving late at night. But that's just me, and I had more freedom than that at his age. as long as he tells you where he is and always keeps his phone with him/responds to you, those are more reasonable expectations. your rule doesn't prevent him from having sex...teens are quite innovative in that respect.

sitting in the car for 3 hours was a little crazy, but I expect you realize that with a little reflection.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The thing that actually jumped out at me from your post, OP, was that he "berated" you. That's totally unacceptable. Nobody should berate you. Not ever. The lack of respect in the form of insults and outright lies -- this would be a cause of grave concern for me.

How would you react if you husband berated you or lied to you? Without suggesting that your reaction should be the same, this is a useful frame of reference. Because you are preparing to launch this person into adulthood, and your reaction should therefore be somehow congruent with another trusted adult berating your and lying to you.

As for the posters who ask you to focus on your relationship with your child as you prepare to send him off -- I agree, but I see the other side of this: Do you want to have a relationship with him where he lies to you, does not respect your wishes, berates you -- and you just let him, because you don't want to rock the boat?

OP, you deserve more from your son. You deserve more from yourself.

It's time for a frank conversation with your son. The question shouldn't be what power you're going to wield in order to coerce him into compliance (i.e. "consequences", i.e. punishment.) Rather: what kind of relationship do you want to have with each other? Tell him how it feels to be deceived. Tell him how it feels to be insulted. Tell him that you will always love him, and also you will not tolerate being treated that way. Or will you? Be honest with yourself: What are you willing / not willing to put up with? What are the very real and likely consequences here? Not, what am I going to do to him if he doesn't comply, but, how am I going to protect myself in a relationship in which the other party is not being respectful?

On the cusp of adulthood, I would insist on being respected, and I would also look hard in the mirror and see if I am treating my child with the respect I am asking for myself. Are you listening to him? Or are you dishing out rules and punishments in a way that might feel infantilizing or arbitrary? The question isn't whether the rules are restrictive or permissive, but why is this about rules at all? There is an underlying "why" to all of the rules. Is your child aware of these? Do you talk about it? Does he take responsibility for his actions?

Our job is to launch them into adulthood. We don't do it all at once, in one fell swoop. At 17+, he should be making his own decisions and communicating with you, and you should be there as a sounding board, to help his baby-adult brain connect dots he may have missed, to help him see what he may have missed. We want them to be able to come to us for advice, we want them to make their own good decisions.

I don't care a whit whether he sleeps here or there, is home at 9pm or 1am or 7am the next day. What I care about it how he treats the people in his life, and in particular the people who support him and love him and on whom he depends.

OP here. Thank you. This is such a helpful post which is helping me to focus on the real issues. This is why I posted in the first place. To see if I was off base. It I was being unrealistic in my expectations for a teenage his age and your point about whether my parenting is infantilizing him/arbitrary lies at the heart of what I was trying to convey in my OP.

I'm glad you saw this OP, this is really the best answer and most of what you need to know. A lot of this is normal, I did similar things right around this age, but that doesn't mean it's okay. My parents responded very very similarly to this poster with a focus on the hurt it causes and the deception. We worked together on solutions and what would happen going forward. They treated me like a human being, with needs/wants (to see my friends, have freedom, whatever - for your son, it's to see a girl he is probably very infatuated and maybe even in love with), but also were very clear on boundaries within our family and the expectations of how I am expected to treat others including them. This mutual respect continues in our relationship today. You've got this OP! It will probably be multiple convos, not just one. And you need your husband on board.

pp here. some other ideas, instead of coming to him with a punishment, or to give him a lecture, make sure that it is a conversation and try to get him to lead. Be honest and open. "I'm worried about our relationship, what do you think would help? " Try to really listen to him. You have said you're just totally flabbergasted by this behavior, try to remember it is still your kind, sweet kid in there, pull those feelings out. Approach the conversations with openness and genuinely showing him you want to understand, that you trust his feelings are equally as important and valid as your own. Ask him if he loves his girlfriend, and if he says yes - say, how wonderful, what an amazing feeling that is. I'm so happy for you that you have found someone you feel like that with. etc etc. Show him this isn't a power struggle. But then also express how he has hurt you, and what you expect of him as a blossoming adult. Help him see that the way he treats others is just about the most important thing you have to teach him and that is your focus. And that you won't accept it in your home. If his responses are that he should be able to do what he wants, when we know that's obviously not an option, maybe there is more digging to do. Keep working at it. What would make him feel happy and keep the relationships intact.

[Anonymous]

OP - you should really be solving this issue in partnership with your husband instead of asking a bunch of anonymous strangers. What your son and his girlfriend are up to is pretty typical behavior for kids that age, and they will find a way to get together and have sex one way or the other. What you should be working on with your husband is what is the best path forward for teaching your immature son how to become a responsible man and what path of action will strengthen a respectful relationship between him and you. Punishments and threats at this age introduce a huge risk that you will accomplish exactly the opposite of what you intend. A better strategy might be to let him own what he did and what he is going to do about it. For instance, ask him why he felt the need to deceive you. Does he plan to deceive a future partner when he doesn’t get what he wants instead of having a productive, respectful conflict to resolve. What does he think the consequences of his actions should be. Just a few thought who is on his 4th 17 year old child right now.

[Anonymous]

I was one of the posters with a son and daughter that mentioned statutory rape and really don’t care if it’s technically legal or not. I was thinking of DH and my reaction if we found out our teen daughter had her older BF sleep over when we were gone. Sure, maybe it wouldn’t be illegal but we’d try to make his life hell and hers. That’s what we’d be warning our son about. Angry parents.

I don’t know what we would do in your situation but I admire how calm you are being. I’m following for advice if we end up in a similar situation someday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was one of the posters with a son and daughter that mentioned statutory rape and really don’t care if it’s technically legal or not. I was thinking of DH and my reaction if we found out our teen daughter had her older BF sleep over when we were gone. Sure, maybe it wouldn’t be illegal but we’d try to make his life hell and hers. That’s what we’d be warning our son about. Angry parents.

I don’t know what we would do in your situation but I admire how calm you are being. I’m following for advice if we end up in a similar situation someday.

You can make your daughter’s life hell if you wish. But if you tried to make his hell for an entirely legal act, you would be the one facing charges for harassment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters citing concerns about statutory rape are almost certainly misguided. First, in many, if not most, states a 16 year old has reached the age of consent. Second, many states require there to be a significant age gap even if one party has not reached the broader age of consent. A 17 year old sleeping with a 16 year old would not realistically face legal consequences for consensual behavior.

This is not true. Don't you watch the news?

No, I read criminal codes. I find that is a more effective way to determine what is legal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was one of the posters with a son and daughter that mentioned statutory rape and really don’t care if it’s technically legal or not. I was thinking of DH and my reaction if we found out our teen daughter had her older BF sleep over when we were gone. Sure, maybe it wouldn’t be illegal but we’d try to make his life hell and hers. That’s what we’d be warning our son about. Angry parents.

I don’t know what we would do in your situation but I admire how calm you are being. I’m following for advice if we end up in a similar situation someday.

You can make your daughter’s life hell if you wish. But if you tried to make his hell for an entirely legal act, you would be the one facing charges for harassment.

I think a simpler solution would be to not leave a 16 year home alone. Rather than trying to make kids' lives hell.

[Anonymous]

OP, where is the communication with the girls parents. I would be pissed if I said no and the other set of parents knew! I think they are natural allies. For what it is worth, I would take away the car for lying.