MS Magnet admissions: are CES students at a disadvantage?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
They essentially say that with regards to the CES. Our CES had a Wait List last year of about 80 kids. MCPS told parents that the Wait Lit was a pure lottery system. Meaning that every one of those kids on the Wait List was equally qualified to get into the CES.
Which of course, leads to the question of why they don’t expand the program so that all the kids who should be admitted, do get admitted. Different discussion though.

It depends on how you define "all the kids who should be admitted." The selection committee divided up kids into four categories:

Limited
Substantial
Definitive
Exceptional

What we were told is that there were very few exceptional kids. These are the kids admitted first with 99th percentile scores across the board in MAP and on Cogat, straight As. The second category which is definitive is large, the substantial category even larger. The wait list is full of kids from the definitive or substantial categories largely based on peer cohort. ESOL, FARMS kids get a boost. SN kids in these categories may get another look to make sure they aren't being discriminated against so a child known to have dyslexia applying to Takoma may not get penalized for having 99th percentile scores everywhere but a lower score for reading. If you just take all the exceptional kids there are not enough to fill the programs. You could say they are actually allowing MORE kids into these programs than really need to be there. This is where I think the peer cohort argument makes sense because if you have a strong student in a school full of strong students and the child is not a super outlier I don't think that child will necessarily suffer but if you have a strong student in a school full of not so great students that student may not have a great experience and may lose motivation.

[Anonymous]

^^ This is in line with our experience at the CES. A handful of exceptional students with the rest of the class excellent students but similar to those at the home school.

[Anonymous]

I don't understand why there are all these complaints that the opportunities like the MS magnet should be available to all students, but when schools try to replicate magnet classes at the home MS, people complain that their kid should go to the specific MS magnet program. Isn't that what MCPS is trying to do? Have the MS magnet experiences at all MS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is anecdotal but just to give you an examples so you understand how people feel about these changes. I recently met a group of mothers with kids in a high school Magnet. Four of them also had kids in elementary school and only one was planning to let their kid apply to the magnet middle school. Two were pulling their kids out of MCPS and one was going to keep their kid in their home middle school. The reason given was the new selection criteria and their concern about the quality of the program. They were all zoned for middle schools that have experienced discrimination in the last selection process.
All of us agreed that the Magnet programs have been wonderful for our children. The three who are leaving mcps were willing to send their kids to the high school magnets if the selection process etc stays the same.

Folks must have money to burn if they are willing to pull their kids out of public school based on nothing but rumors. We are three months into the very first cohort selected under the new admissions criteria. Let's not declare the whole thing a failure quite yet, and let's not assume the "quality of the program" will go down because the system is testing more kids and prioritizing kids who otherwise would not have a peer group.

These are parents who know first hand how important it is to have a class full of the very best students. It is the peer group that allows teachers to simultaneously go fast and deep and still make it fun

Those parents are going to be very disappointed when they find out that private schools are not top-to-bottom "the very best students."

Guess what? Just as MCPS is letting some 88% kids mingle with 99% kids in order to support equity and serve outliers in lower-performing schools, private schools are letting 70% kids mingle with 99% kids to serve the bottom line of the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is anecdotal but just to give you an examples so you understand how people feel about these changes. I recently met a group of mothers with kids in a high school Magnet. Four of them also had kids in elementary school and only one was planning to let their kid apply to the magnet middle school. Two were pulling their kids out of MCPS and one was going to keep their kid in their home middle school. The reason given was the new selection criteria and their concern about the quality of the program. They were all zoned for middle schools that have experienced discrimination in the last selection process.
All of us agreed that the Magnet programs have been wonderful for our children. The three who are leaving mcps were willing to send their kids to the high school magnets if the selection process etc stays the same.

Folks must have money to burn if they are willing to pull their kids out of public school based on nothing but rumors. We are three months into the very first cohort selected under the new admissions criteria. Let's not declare the whole thing a failure quite yet, and let's not assume the "quality of the program" will go down because the system is testing more kids and prioritizing kids who otherwise would not have a peer group.

These are parents who know first hand how important it is to have a class full of the very best students. It is the peer group that allows teachers to simultaneously go fast and deep and still make it fun

Those parents are going to be very disappointed when they find out that private schools are not top-to-bottom "the very best students."

Guess what? Just as MCPS is letting some 88% kids mingle with 99% kids in order to support equity and serve outliers in lower-performing schools, private schools are letting 70% kids mingle with 99% kids to serve the bottom line of the school.

I am the PP you are responding to. I was not referring to private schools when I made that statement but rather to magnet programs.
I don't think the parents who are going private are expecting it to be like the magnet programs. The whole point is that MCPS had a special and distinctive set of programs for the top 3-5% of students and now that they appear to be lowering admission standards and have gutted AEI, some families are choosing to leave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why there are all these complaints that the opportunities like the MS magnet should be available to all students, but when schools try to replicate magnet classes at the home MS, people complain that their kid should go to the specific MS magnet program. Isn't that what MCPS is trying to do? Have the MS magnet experiences at all MS?

The accelerated/enriched classes MCPS is introducing into home middle schools are not the same as the MS magnet experience at Takoma/Eastern or Clemente/MLK. At the MS Magnets, there are three specialized magnet-level classes with an integrated curriculum taught by experienced magnet teachers who have a passion for what they do. Also, there is either a comp sci or media class, depending on which program the student is in, that is not offered in home middle schools. In addition, there are amazing field trips and opportunities in the magnet programs that are not replicated at the home middle schools. So MCPS isn't replicating the programs in the local MS--at least not yet. It's providing accelerated and enriched instruction, which is certainly meeting a need. But let's not confuse it with the curriculum/instruction/opportunities that are offered in the MS Magnets.

One other off-topic thought to consider: the MS Magnets are a 3-year program. I've only heard/read MCPS policy on the local MS accelerated/enriched classes with regard to 6th grade. Does anyone know what they plan to offer in 7th and 8th grades?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
What I do not like is MCPS lumping kids in the top 5% in with kids in the top 10-20%. Yes they are all highly able but the top 5% needs a much more specialized curriculum. This is the cohort traditionally served by Eastern, Takoma Park and Blair SMAC. The peer group is these programs has traditionally been quite distinctive and the pace, rigor and breadth of their curricula is a reflection of the abilities and interests of their students. If you change the student body, the programs themselves will slowly change.

It is a large school system with a very diverse student body and MCPS needs to properly serve all its constituents - the highly able, the exceptionally able, the ESOL kids, the kids with special needs etc.

Is there any evidence that this has been a problem at Takoma or Eastern? I've seen a few posts on the new classes and parents are saying they are surprised at how motivated and bright the kids are. Is there evidence that there are more kids who can't keep up or that the curriculum has to be watered down?
I agree with you in theory but I don't see any evidence that this is a problem in the MCPS MS magnets.

[Anonymous]

One other off-topic thought to consider: the MS Magnets are a 3-year program. I've only heard/read MCPS policy on the local MS accelerated/enriched classes with regard to 6th grade. Does anyone know what they plan to offer in 7th and 8th grades?

DC is a current TPMS 7th grader. Last year he had math called "MAG INVESTG MATH", but this year he has math called "ALGEBRA 1A" I think the whole MCPS final transcripts (to the high school level) are same regardless magnet or non-magnet. Other magnet courses are still in place such as "MAG COMP SCI 7" and "Mag Investig in Science 7"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
One other off-topic thought to consider: the MS Magnets are a 3-year program. I've only heard/read MCPS policy on the local MS accelerated/enriched classes with regard to 6th grade. Does anyone know what they plan to offer in 7th and 8th grades?

They're rolling the classes out one year at a time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A current magnet parent. Even in the previous selection system that did not penalize kids based on "cohort criterion", there has been a very wide range of capability levels among the magnet students. There is a wide misconception that there are too many very smart kids and not enough seats. This is simply not true. Especially in upper grade magnets, a significant number of magnet students struggle. If the selection criteria include the "home school cohort" criterion, the discrepancy among magnet students will get even bigger.

Totally agree. One DC went to HGC when it was still called HGC. DC was middle of the pack, but they all generally had the same abilities. The range wasn't that great.

If a high performing student from a low performing school has the same abilities compared to those higher performing students from the higher performing schools, then obviously, that's a no brainer. That child definitely belongs in a magnet program.

But if such a child only performs at the same level as the general student population in a highest performing school, then the *only* reason that child was admitted was due to the fact that there is no peer cohort in their lower performing school and not because they are the highest performers in the county. Granted, now the magnet program no longer is for the highest performing of the applicant pool, but rather within their home school, but there are challenges to such a mix.

This is kind of like HS students from low performing HSs who are admitted to HYP type universities are ill prepared compared to the students from very high performing HS. The range of abilities becomes exaggerated. Not saying such students can't eventually catch up, but such students will certainly face more difficulties.

These higher performing students didn't have a similar peer cohort in their ESs, and may not have been exposed to more rigor. Yes, such students should get the opportunity to be challenged, but throwing them in with kids who had this kind of exposure earlier on will certainly make it more challenging for those students, and I have to wonder if the standards in the magnet program won't be negatively affected by having such a big range of abilities.

I think if the original purpose of the magnet program is no longer applicable, then they should open up another magnet on the western side of the county, and not just because of academics but also for a shorter commute. And no, having one or two classes that have a similar magnet curriculum is not the same as a magnet program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A current magnet parent. Even in the previous selection system that did not penalize kids based on "cohort criterion", there has been a very wide range of capability levels among the magnet students. There is a wide misconception that there are too many very smart kids and not enough seats. This is simply not true. Especially in upper grade magnets, a significant number of magnet students struggle. If the selection criteria include the "home school cohort" criterion, the discrepancy among magnet students will get even bigger.

I'm sorry but this is total speculation on your part. There is no way you know how other kids are performing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A current magnet parent. Even in the previous selection system that did not penalize kids based on "cohort criterion", there has been a very wide range of capability levels among the magnet students. There is a wide misconception that there are too many very smart kids and not enough seats. This is simply not true. Especially in upper grade magnets, a significant number of magnet students struggle. If the selection criteria include the "home school cohort" criterion, the discrepancy among magnet students will get even bigger.

I'm sorry but this is total speculation on your part. There is no way you know how other kids are performing.

DP.. I don't think that's an illogical conclusion to make. A while ago, there was a similar discussion on here, and a quote from an mcps teacher from a wapo article was posted on here stating this very thing.. that the change in selection has lead to a wider range of capabilities, but the teacher said that was fine for her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I think if the original purpose of the magnet program is no longer applicable, then they should open up another magnet on the western side of the county, and not just because of academics but also for a shorter commute. And no, having one or two classes that have a similar magnet curriculum is not the same as a magnet program.

They did that already, in 2003.

http://www.gazette.net/gazette_archive/2003/200326/montgomery/news/164612-1.html

[Anonymous]

These higher performing students didn't have a similar peer cohort in their ESs, and may not have been exposed to more rigor. Yes, such students should get the opportunity to be challenged, but throwing them in with kids who had this kind of exposure earlier on will certainly make it more challenging for those students,

Yes, it might very well BE more challenging for kids from lower-performing schools, but that's not a reason to create the entire cohort out of kids from high-performing elementary schools. Particularly given what we know about "high performing" schools and race/income.

If your argument is "it will be hard for them so we shouldn't do it," then you are effectively saying that poor Black and brown kids are better off staying in lower-performing schools, which is just another way of saying that magnets should be for rich white/Asian kids.

[Anonymous]

maybe some of the outliners from low performing school would be better off if they join the nearby local middle school cohort MCPS identified..