MS Magnet admissions: are CES students at a disadvantage?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I think it's a combination of various things.

I can't speak for everyone, but for the other parents we've talked to at the CES, it's mostly that the trade off of a long commute isn't worth it anymore. The MS Magnet used to be the very best and brightest kids in the county. And, for that, it was worth an hour commute. But, now the MS Magnet has become something slightly different. Not necessarily better or worse, but most parents at our CES have decided that it's not worth the commute.

Nah. It used to be the kids with the very highest test scores.

If you don't want your kid to go, then don't send your kid. It will free up a spot for a kid who wants to go.

[Anonymous]

Here is the MCPS document describing their selection process

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/Middle%20school%20magnet%20selection%20process%20overview.PDF

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is anecdotal but just to give you an examples so you understand how people feel about these changes. I recently met a group of mothers with kids in a high school Magnet. Four of them also had kids in elementary school and only one was planning to let their kid apply to the magnet middle school. Two were pulling their kids out of MCPS and one was going to keep their kid in their home middle school. The reason given was the new selection criteria and their concern about the quality of the program. They were all zoned for middle schools that have experienced discrimination in the last selection process.
All of us agreed that the Magnet programs have been wonderful for our children. The three who are leaving mcps were willing to send their kids to the high school magnets if the selection process etc stays the same.

Folks must have money to burn if they are willing to pull their kids out of public school based on nothing but rumors. We are three months into the very first cohort selected under the new admissions criteria. Let's not declare the whole thing a failure quite yet, and let's not assume the "quality of the program" will go down because the system is testing more kids and prioritizing kids who otherwise would not have a peer group.

I agree. The great things about the magnet are teachers who are used to doing things in a more integrated and project-based way, who are enthusiastic about their subjects, and students who are bright and hard-working/motivated/intellectually curious. I don't think either of those elements has changed. It doesn't have to be the top X% to be a more engaged, focused, fast-paced cohort than what you would get at the home middle school. And it never was the top X% of the whole system, because it was taken from the smaller pool of those who chose to apply. I don't think there is evidence (yet) to support the position that the MS magnets have changed significantly to accommodate a different group of students. I read one thread where a teacher posted that they were concerned at first about admitting students with lower scores, but that the cohort this year has shown themselves to be plenty up for the challenge. I do think that the 2 magnet-style classes added at many home schools could possibly tip the balance in some people's calculations as the commute is a major detraction for people in certain areas of the County.

How does the selection committee identify these motivated/intellectually curious students? Is it the teacher recommendations? Is it the student’s personal essay? Is it the applicant ‘s extracurricular activities that demonstrate a child’s interest in life outside the classroom/or in doing a deep dive into an academic area of interest? That is the only justification for picking a lower scoring child over a higher scoring child. Please don’t respond with some variant of the high scoring child is a test prepping automaton. That is an offensive stereotype.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
How does the selection committee identify these motivated/intellectually curious students? Is it the teacher recommendations? Is it the student’s personal essay? Is it the applicant ‘s extracurricular activities that demonstrate a child’s interest in life outside the classroom/or in doing a deep dive into an academic area of interest? That is the only justification for picking a lower scoring child over a higher scoring child. Please don’t respond with some variant of the high scoring child is a test prepping automaton. That is an offensive stereotype.

No, it's not the only justification.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is anecdotal but just to give you an examples so you understand how people feel about these changes. I recently met a group of mothers with kids in a high school Magnet. Four of them also had kids in elementary school and only one was planning to let their kid apply to the magnet middle school. Two were pulling their kids out of MCPS and one was going to keep their kid in their home middle school. The reason given was the new selection criteria and their concern about the quality of the program. They were all zoned for middle schools that have experienced discrimination in the last selection process.
All of us agreed that the Magnet programs have been wonderful for our children. The three who are leaving mcps were willing to send their kids to the high school magnets if the selection process etc stays the same.

Folks must have money to burn if they are willing to pull their kids out of public school based on nothing but rumors. We are three months into the very first cohort selected under the new admissions criteria. Let's not declare the whole thing a failure quite yet, and let's not assume the "quality of the program" will go down because the system is testing more kids and prioritizing kids who otherwise would not have a peer group.

I agree. The great things about the magnet are teachers who are used to doing things in a more integrated and project-based way, who are enthusiastic about their subjects, and students who are bright and hard-working/motivated/intellectually curious. I don't think either of those elements has changed. It doesn't have to be the top X% to be a more engaged, focused, fast-paced cohort than what you would get at the home middle school. And it never was the top X% of the whole system, because it was taken from the smaller pool of those who chose to apply. I don't think there is evidence (yet) to support the position that the MS magnets have changed significantly to accommodate a different group of students. I read one thread where a teacher posted that they were concerned at first about admitting students with lower scores, but that the cohort this year has shown themselves to be plenty up for the challenge. I do think that the 2 magnet-style classes added at many home schools could possibly tip the balance in some people's calculations as the commute is a major detraction for people in certain areas of the County.

How does the selection committee identify these motivated/intellectually curious students? Is it the teacher recommendations? Is it the student’s personal essay? Is it the applicant ‘s extracurricular activities that demonstrate a child’s interest in life outside the classroom/or in doing a deep dive into an academic area of interest? That is the only justification for picking a lower scoring child over a higher scoring child. Please don’t respond with some variant of the high scoring child is a test prepping automaton. That is an offensive stereotype.

MY kid’s CES teacher told us that they no longer accept any input from the kids’ teachers. Teachers now give zero input.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is anecdotal but just to give you an examples so you understand how people feel about these changes. I recently met a group of mothers with kids in a high school Magnet. Four of them also had kids in elementary school and only one was planning to let their kid apply to the magnet middle school. Two were pulling their kids out of MCPS and one was going to keep their kid in their home middle school. The reason given was the new selection criteria and their concern about the quality of the program. They were all zoned for middle schools that have experienced discrimination in the last selection process.
All of us agreed that the Magnet programs have been wonderful for our children. The three who are leaving mcps were willing to send their kids to the high school magnets if the selection process etc stays the same.

Folks must have money to burn if they are willing to pull their kids out of public school based on nothing but rumors. We are three months into the very first cohort selected under the new admissions criteria. Let's not declare the whole thing a failure quite yet, and let's not assume the "quality of the program" will go down because the system is testing more kids and prioritizing kids who otherwise would not have a peer group.

I agree. The great things about the magnet are teachers who are used to doing things in a more integrated and project-based way, who are enthusiastic about their subjects, and students who are bright and hard-working/motivated/intellectually curious. I don't think either of those elements has changed. It doesn't have to be the top X% to be a more engaged, focused, fast-paced cohort than what you would get at the home middle school. And it never was the top X% of the whole system, because it was taken from the smaller pool of those who chose to apply. I don't think there is evidence (yet) to support the position that the MS magnets have changed significantly to accommodate a different group of students. I read one thread where a teacher posted that they were concerned at first about admitting students with lower scores, but that the cohort this year has shown themselves to be plenty up for the challenge. I do think that the 2 magnet-style classes added at many home schools could possibly tip the balance in some people's calculations as the commute is a major detraction for people in certain areas of the County.

How does the selection committee identify these motivated/intellectually curious students? Is it the teacher recommendations? Is it the student’s personal essay? Is it the applicant ‘s extracurricular activities that demonstrate a child’s interest in life outside the classroom/or in doing a deep dive into an academic area of interest? That is the only justification for picking a lower scoring child over a higher scoring child. Please don’t respond with some variant of the high scoring child is a test prepping automaton. That is an offensive stereotype.

I don’t think the lower scoring kids are better than the higher scoring kids in these regards, I just also don’t think they’re worse. They are still scoring high enough to be above average kids who can succeed in the program with motivation, desire and interest. The kids who aren’t motivated will decline even if they’re admitted because why leave your home school and friends if you’re not excited about the program?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is the MCPS document describing their selection process

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/Middle%20school%20magnet%20selection%20process%20overview.PDF

Thanks for the link, PP!

Holy crap! 4 rounds including 'group review' to evaluate 10-year-old children for a PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM enriched program?
Something is seriously wrong with MCPS if they have to go through these ridiculous procedures to 'meet the needs' of 100 chosen while rejecting 3000 or so who, according to MCPS's own confession, woud 'benefit from the program'. And, of course, this travesty was invented with the best interest of 'the child' in mind.

Just offer challenging classes to everyone, already, rather than insult other people's intelligence!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is the MCPS document describing their selection process

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/Middle%20school%20magnet%20selection%20process%20overview.PDF

Thanks for the link, PP!

Holy crap! 4 rounds including 'group review' to evaluate 10-year-old children for a PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM enriched program?
Something is seriously wrong with MCPS if they have to go through these ridiculous procedures to 'meet the needs' of 100 chosen while rejecting 3000 or so who, according to MCPS's own confession, woud 'benefit from the program'. And, of course, this travesty was invented with the best interest of 'the child' in mind.

Just offer challenging classes to everyone, already, rather than insult other people's intelligence!

+100

Ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is the MCPS document describing their selection process

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/Middle%20school%20magnet%20selection%20process%20overview.PDF

Thanks for the link, PP!

Holy crap! 4 rounds including 'group review' to evaluate 10-year-old children for a PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM enriched program?
Something is seriously wrong with MCPS if they have to go through these ridiculous procedures to 'meet the needs' of 100 chosen while rejecting 3000 or so who, according to MCPS's own confession, woud 'benefit from the program'. And, of course, this travesty was invented with the best interest of 'the child' in mind.

Just offer challenging classes to everyone, already, rather than insult other people's intelligence!

And that's what they are trying to do by bringing more advanced classes into middle school, now that they have a global screening process that is identifying so many students in need of better curriculum.

In the long run, that's what parents really want for their advanced/GT students. Good rigorous curriculum taught with a peer group that is actually ready for the curriculum. If middle school offerings improve, the ability to stay with your neighborhood friends and not have a 45-60 minutes bus ride twice a day becomes more appealing and the need to be in a magnet less intense.

[Anonymous]

MCPS said explicitly that many students rejected the middle school magnet seats last spring. Of course, MCPS could always find enough gifted kids as we have a large pool. I could understand reasons for both sides. Let’s appreciate the value of diversity in our choices and don’t throw out sour grape label easily when we don’t understand others’ choices.

[Anonymous]

From the document describing the selection process (I have highlighted the last sentence by bolding it):

Goal of Choice
To effectively and efficiently meet the
instructional needs of all highly able learners by
identifying a myriad of ways to ensure that they
are receiving instruction to meet their needs.

Purpose of Program
Although many students would benefit from a
selective magnet program experience, the
intent of the program is to serve students who
lack an academic cohort in their home school.

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/Middle%20school%20magnet%20selection%20process%20overview.PDF

I am not sure how narrowly they are defining an academic cohort. It nearly looks like they are identifying a large number of "highly able" learners and then using the geography criteria to make their final selections.
If you look at the number of "highly able" learners they identify it is quite a large number - just looking at the COGAT Q results nearly 800 students from 19 sending middle schools (MCPS has 40 middle schools with a total enrollment of 36,000).
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/MS%20Magnet%20Field%20Test%20Data%20by%20Sending%20MS.pdf

This is probably how they are justifying their decision to pick a 88th percentile kid over a 99th percentile kid. Are they saying that any child in the top 15 percent is equally qualified for the magnet programs?
I would argue that any child in the top 15 percent is qualified to take an advanced class in their home middle school but the magnet programs should really be for the top 3-5% of students who are in a different cohort from the top 15%.

[Anonymous]

A current magnet parent. Even in the previous selection system that did not penalize kids based on "cohort criterion", there has been a very wide range of capability levels among the magnet students. There is a wide misconception that there are too many very smart kids and not enough seats. This is simply not true. Especially in upper grade magnets, a significant number of magnet students struggle. If the selection criteria include the "home school cohort" criterion, the discrepancy among magnet students will get even bigger.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From the document describing the selection process (I have highlighted the last sentence by bolding it):

Goal of Choice
To effectively and efficiently meet the
instructional needs of all highly able learners by
identifying a myriad of ways to ensure that they
are receiving instruction to meet their needs.

Purpose of Program
Although many students would benefit from a
selective magnet program experience, the
intent of the program is to serve students who
lack an academic cohort in their home school.

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/Middle%20school%20magnet%20selection%20process%20overview.PDF

I am not sure how narrowly they are defining an academic cohort. It nearly looks like they are identifying a large number of "highly able" learners and then using the geography criteria to make their final selections.
If you look at the number of "highly able" learners they identify it is quite a large number - just looking at the COGAT Q results nearly 800 students from 19 sending middle schools (MCPS has 40 middle schools with a total enrollment of 36,000).
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/MS%20Magnet%20Field%20Test%20Data%20by%20Sending%20MS.pdf

This is probably how they are justifying their decision to pick a 88th percentile kid over a 99th percentile kid. Are they saying that any child in the top 15 percent is equally qualified for the magnet programs?
I would argue that any child in the top 15 percent is qualified to take an advanced class in their home middle school but the magnet programs should really be for the top 3-5% of students who are in a different cohort from the top 15%.

They essentially say that with regards to the CES. Our CES had a Wait List last year of about 80 kids. MCPS told parents that the Wait Lit was a pure lottery system. Meaning that every one of those kids on the Wait List was equally qualified to get into the CES.

Which of course, leads to the question of why they don’t expand the program so that all the kids who should be admitted, do get admitted. Different discussion though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A current magnet parent. Even in the previous selection system that did not penalize kids based on "cohort criterion", there has been a very wide range of capability levels among the magnet students. There is a wide misconception that there are too many very smart kids and not enough seats. This is simply not true. Especially in upper grade magnets, a significant number of magnet students struggle. If the selection criteria include the "home school cohort" criterion, the discrepancy among magnet students will get even bigger.

+1
This is why there is a fear of the programs getting watered down over time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the document describing the selection process (I have highlighted the last sentence by bolding it):

Goal of Choice
To effectively and efficiently meet the
instructional needs of all highly able learners by
identifying a myriad of ways to ensure that they
are receiving instruction to meet their needs.

Purpose of Program
Although many students would benefit from a
selective magnet program experience, the
intent of the program is to serve students who
lack an academic cohort in their home school.

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/Middle%20school%20magnet%20selection%20process%20overview.PDF

I am not sure how narrowly they are defining an academic cohort. It nearly looks like they are identifying a large number of "highly able" learners and then using the geography criteria to make their final selections.
If you look at the number of "highly able" learners they identify it is quite a large number - just looking at the COGAT Q results nearly 800 students from 19 sending middle schools (MCPS has 40 middle schools with a total enrollment of 36,000).
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/schools/msmagnet/about/MS%20Magnet%20Field%20Test%20Data%20by%20Sending%20MS.pdf

This is probably how they are justifying their decision to pick a 88th percentile kid over a 99th percentile kid. Are they saying that any child in the top 15 percent is equally qualified for the magnet programs?
I would argue that any child in the top 15 percent is qualified to take an advanced class in their home middle school but the magnet programs should really be for the top 3-5% of students who are in a different cohort from the top 15%.

They essentially say that with regards to the CES. Our CES had a Wait List last year of about 80 kids. MCPS told parents that the Wait Lit was a pure lottery system. Meaning that every one of those kids on the Wait List was equally qualified to get into the CES.

Which of course, leads to the question of why they don’t expand the program so that all the kids who should be admitted, do get admitted. Different discussion though.

If they expand the program that much it would totally change the program especially at the high school and middle school level.
There are more students in MCPS today and so there is a real argument to be made to open a new middle school magnet perhaps in N. Bethesda so kids in Potomac and N. Rockville don't have long commutes. There is also a real need for more advanced offerings in middle school and the two new classes are a great first step. There is no doubt that MCPS had a large pool of highly able students who were not sufficiently served in middle school.
This top tier (the top 10-20% of students) has needs that are not really met until high school when they get an opportunity to take AP classes etc.

What I do not like is MCPS lumping kids in the top 5% in with kids in the top 10-20%. Yes they are all highly able but the top 5% needs a much more specialized curriculum. This is the cohort traditionally served by Eastern, Takoma Park and Blair SMAC. The peer group is these programs has traditionally been quite distinctive and the pace, rigor and breadth of their curricula is a reflection of the abilities and interests of their students. If you change the student body, the programs themselves will slowly change.

It is a large school system with a very diverse student body and MCPS needs to properly serve all its constituents - the highly able, the exceptionally able, the ESOL kids, the kids with special needs etc.