High school senior daughter asked me "What's the point of all this?"

[Anonymous]

Why do so many of these posts end up being a defense of elite schools because by going to an elite school, you can make a ton of money (consulting/finance) or meet the right people?

To the OP, your daughter should think about getting to a school that will have her intellectual and emotional peers. The truth is you can get a quality education at many, many places, but the student body and personality will change fro school to school. Where will she thrive, be able to pursue her greatest loves and interests, and find herself as a young adult? For any individual, there ARE places that will not be good for her: and yes, it does happen that students are too intellectual for School A, or not intellectual enough for School B. It also happens that a school is too business-oriented, or too leadership oriented, or too main-stream, or too quirky. The kids could be too academic, or not academic enough... too much focussed on junior year abroad, or not enough focussed on international experiences. Find 5-8 schools that she would really fit in!

I went to an elite school, and met some extraordinarily intelligent people. For me, that was of primary importance and I'm glad I did it. At the same time, as a public school kid, it was hard and eye-opening to learn about the wealth and value-system of some of the people at this school. I have no doubt I would have thrived at a less highly-ranked school, but it would have been harder to find that peer group. I also KNOW that I have received opportunities that are not afforded to kids who go to less prestigious places, and it's a little hard to put your finger on how it works on a systemic level. Some graduate schools in academic fields only pick among elite schools, because students from other elite schools are "known" quantities. Some summer jobs I had wanted to have that prestige factor among the people they hired. One major consulting job I had also wanted the prestige behind it, and were explicit about it. Some opportunities then led to others, not for my alma mater, but because of my previous experience. How could I possibly know what would have come my way without that?

I also agree with the posters who noted that mental health is probably THE most important feature of success after college, no matter where you go to college. To the OP, if your daughter is competitive to enter Penn or Duke, she will no doubt be successful no matter. The rat race is horrible for what it does to kids, and it's disheartening to see that many colleges "fall for" kids who "brand themselves" in order to get in. Some colleges actively try to defend themselves against people who overcommit and take 10 AP exams; they say "we want community service!" And of course, the kids who take 10 APs also have to fit in community service, and they find a way to do so, or lie about doing so.... Unless it's really who they are underneath, these kids will either have hollow experiences once arriving at Elite University, or they will not get out of it what they put in. But for the kids for whom it comes naturally to work hard and love doing that, plus a bit of luck, they can get into these schools and feel good about themselves.

Help your daughter be true to herself, and provide for her the experience/wisdom/insight you have about the value of any school she goes to, without letting her sell her integrity for the process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"The point is that I'm not going to be your lifetime beneficiary so if you want food to eat clothes to wear and a roof over your head when you hit 18 then it's in your best interest to put yourself in a position to attain those things."

LMFAO. You realize that 70% of adults in the US don't even have a bachelor's degree or higher, much less one from a top 10 school? That is probably less than 1% of the population in the US. You really think that 99% of people over the age of 18 don't have food to eat, clothes to wear, or a roof over their head?

I'm not concerned with the 70% of flyover trash, Walmart employees, etc. I personally don't know any adults without a bachelors. DMV is the wealthiest and most educated region in the USA. The bar here is higher.

http://www.governing.com/blogs/by-the-numbers/graduate-professional-degrees-for-metro-areas.html
The majority of over-25 adults in the Washington DC metro area do not have bachelor's degrees.

Again, do you move in those circles - Walmart employees, fast food workers, street cleaners? Do you do happy hour with the janitors from your office? Stop injecting data from low people into a high-SES conversation.

First of all, I interact with people with all kinds of jobs on a regular basis.

Secondly, not everyone who doesn't graduate from college is low SES.

I hope that, unlike you, your kids step outside of your little bubble at least occasionally as adults.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Are you seriously trying to tell me that if your kid was torn between a school like Yale and one more like UMD you'd advise UMD???? For what reason? Money and the desire a lucrative profession aside, students obviously receive a WORLD CLASS education at Yale. Not so UMD.

Yale grad here. Go to Yale for the prestige, connections and future opportunities, absolutely, but don't think that undergraduates there are getting a "world class" education. Much like UMD (or any other large university), the majority of classes are lectures by professors (which these days anyone can see online), and discussion sections taught by grad students. For a truly great education where you really interact with faculty, get mentoring, have real research opportunities as an undergrad, etc. go to a liberal arts college. Or go to UMD (if in-state), and get a similar education to Yale and pay 1/5 the tuition.

+1 I'm a professor. I have taught at a top 10 school, a public U and a SLAC. Most of my colleagues at R1 institutions don't care about teaching, use adjuncts or grad students to teach undergrads. The game is research and prestige--world class education, lol! I guess it depends on your definition of education.

[Anonymous]

Tell your daughter to check her privilege. "What's the point [of trying hard]" is only something a rich brat with daddy's money can confidently say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Tell your daughter to check her privilege. "What's the point [of trying hard]" is only something a rich brat with daddy's money can confidently say.

+ 1

Poor kids know what the fucking point is by 17.

[Anonymous]

Why settle for mediocre when you can potentially have the best?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What's the point?

To secure a high-status job in a top tier city, a quality social circle, and a smart & rich spouse who you can produce bright offspring with.

This - DCUM is really good for providing the unvarnished truth unlike good-for-nothing 'guidance counselors' in 99% of schools who have no idea how the world works.

Tyler Cowen's - average is over, the actuality of class structure growing and ossifying in the US, hyper global competition all provide 'the point'.

If OP's daughter can't logically 'get' this, she has no business being at a top school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Tell your daughter to check her privilege. "What's the point [of trying hard]" is only something a rich brat with daddy's money can confidently say.

There's a difference between "trying hard" in a way that is healthy and productive and getting caught up in the insane competitive rat race of elite college admissions, which is what OP's daughter is questioning. And if you doubt that, read this piece on college students, stress and blackout drinking from the NYTimes today: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/19/opinion/drinking-to-blackout.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region®ion=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region&_r=0

It's scary what we think is OK to put our children through to avoid being what DCUM calls "average" (which is actually incredibly successful compared to the vast majority of the world).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And if you doubt that, read this piece on college students, stress and blackout drinking from the NYTimes today: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/19/opinion/drinking-to-blackout.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region®ion=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region&_r=0

It's scary what we think is OK to put our children through to avoid being what DCUM calls "average" (which is actually incredibly successful compared to the vast majority of the world).

"But there’s something else in the mix, something that pushes them from casual drinking to binge drinking to blackout.

I think it’s the stress.

It’s a mutually recognized method of stress relief."

^ Such a load of bullshit.

"There is also a tacit understanding that blacking out works as a kind of “get out of jail free card.” A person can say or do any number of hurtful or embarrassing things and be granted immunity with the simple excuse that they were “blackout” that night."

^ Accurate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your daughter is correct.

There is no point to an elite college.... Unless your intention is to have rich friends.

The point to life is to be a good person, have good friends, be kind to strangers, give back to your community and (hopefully) have a close family.

A surgeon from Penn is no happier than a plumber, if you can afford a house, food, have close friends.

Once you have a certain amount of money, happiness does not increase with more money and eventually declines.

dcum's love to laud plumbers and blue collar trades without actually being blue collar themselves. there's a reason why blue collar moms and dads also push their kids to college. blue collar people (god bless them) pay with their bodies at age 50+.

+1000.

I grew up in a blue collar family and have lots of family/friends who work in trades. There is a difference between blue collar work in which you work for a large company (like at a steel mill) and a trade in which you are self-employed (like a plumber or electrician).

My friends/relatives who work in trades self-employed are doing well. Their skills are in demand and always will be. They aren't at the whim and fancy of CEOs and union bosses who don't necessarily have their best interests in mind.

Many people who work self-employed at trades reach a point by age 50 in which they have enough business to support hiring people to work for them to do the more physical work. They are much better positioned than white-collar workers at 50 who face getting replaced by younger professionals who are willing to work 60 hour weeks for half the pay.

If I had a child who seemed to have a knack for trades, I would encourage them to go into that field. They can still go to college, but I would want them to get certified in their trade as well.

Heading into the future, the people with hard skills (in trades) will have far more options and mobility than white collar workers in the rat race.

I'd still encourage college, but I wouldn't emphasize an Ivy or even an expensive school. The best path a high school senior could take right now to position himself or herself well for the future is to get a bachelor's from a less expensive school coupled with a trade. Even going to community college for two years and taking classes in a trade (in order to get a certification) and then going nights at a state school to finish for a BA is a good path.

I think that the current employment climate favors certifications over degrees.

[Anonymous]

Your daughter sounds pretty smart op. I would sit down with her and talk about her own goals and whst she wants to get out of life. She may just be starting to think about what she wants versus what societal pressure wants her to do.

[Anonymous]

Has she ever had a job, OP? If she had, she might "get it." I worked at CVS weekends, school breaks and summers starting at age 15 and also as a camp counselor during the summers. Years of minimum wage jobs before college let me know that I wanted to go to college and why.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's the point?

To secure a high-status job in a top tier city, a quality social circle, and a smart & rich spouse who you can produce bright offspring with.

This - DCUM is really good for providing the unvarnished truth unlike good-for-nothing 'guidance counselors' in 99% of schools who have no idea how the world works.

Tyler Cowen's - average is over, the actuality of class structure growing and ossifying in the US, hyper global competition all provide 'the point'.

If OP's daughter can't logically 'get' this, she has no business being at a top school.

And if students who go to top schools do get this and are fine with it, I don't want my kids anywhere near them.

[Anonymous]

I'd send her to Wilderness Survival for Teens asap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H7Hh57n8wI

[Anonymous]

OP - not everyone is cut out intellectually and personality-wise for the top ticket. Your DD sounds like someone who simply is not cut out for the elite schools. She'll be happier and will do fine, as others have said, at "Average State U". Not everyone is meant for top tier.