High school senior daughter asked me "What's the point of all this?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In reference to the rat race, the fixation with elite colleges, all hoop jumping, all the tutoring, etc. For a moment I was speechless. In the end I just told her, "You'll regret it if you don't push yourself." What is the point?

Having options in life is the key to happiness.

Working hard in high school gives options for what you do after - do you work at a fast food place or can you go to school after.

If you go to school after, is it Frostburg State or Johns Hopkins? Doing well at both is terrific, but likely doing better at Hopkins will open more doors in the state and provide more opportunities for grad school etc.

If you have options for school and then jobs, then you can make money. If you have money, you can afford to live where you want and do things you want to to.

If you don't have money, then you are stuck in a menial job with little to no disposable income.

I mean, if you can somehow make a six figure income with no high school diploma or with one, then maybe you don't need college. There are plenty of people who do sales who make great money with a high school diploma. But you have to be good at sales, and not everyone is.

[Anonymous]

I am the PP...having caught up on the thread, to be clear, being an electrician or plumber, self-employed is not what I would consider to be a menial job. Blue collar, maybe, but not menial.

Just wanted to head off that potential discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your daughter is correct.

There is no point to an elite college.... Unless your intention is to have rich friends.

The point to life is to be a good person, have good friends, be kind to strangers, give back to your community and (hopefully) have a close family.

A surgeon from Penn is no happier than a plumber, if you can afford a house, food, have close friends.

Once you have a certain amount of money, happiness does not increase with more money and eventually declines.

dcum's love to laud plumbers and blue collar trades without actually being blue collar themselves. there's a reason why blue collar moms and dads also push their kids to college. blue collar people (god bless them) pay with their bodies at age 50+.

While that is true, lawyers pay with alcoholism, heart disease and type 2 diabetes.

1/2 my family are blue collar, 1/2 not...both have positive and negatives.

Her daughter asked a real question, she deserves an honest answer.

Not educating your Children about the pitfalls of the "Rat race" is just as ignorant as not educating you children about the pitfalls of "blue collar" work, or being a xray tech or being a chef, or an accountant, or a million other things that don't require an education at an elite college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your daughter is correct.

There is no point to an elite college.... Unless your intention is to have rich friends.

The point to life is to be a good person, have good friends, be kind to strangers, give back to your community and (hopefully) have a close family.

A surgeon from Penn is no happier than a plumber, if you can afford a house, food, have close friends.

Once you have a certain amount of money, happiness does not increase with more money and eventually declines.

What? Or to have the kind of career that only an elite college can open for you? I work in finance and I know there are banks and money managers who will *only* recruit from the ivy league. They do that because they can, because they get SO many applicants that they can easily afford to be choosy. I know finance is not most people's idea of a good time so substitute any competitive career (journalism, magazines, book publishing, politics, museum curating, certain high profile tech companies) for what I just said.

Which just shows how ignorant the old school finance world is. Google did a study, after only hiring from elite schools. They changed their model and found student from elite schools were not better employees than students from state schools.

You need to educate yourself on the current trends in new business and hiring. advising your kids on knowledge that is 30 years old will not serve them well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your daughter is correct.

There is no point to an elite college.... Unless your intention is to have rich friends.

The point to life is to be a good person, have good friends, be kind to strangers, give back to your community and (hopefully) have a close family.

A surgeon from Penn is no happier than a plumber, if you can afford a house, food, have close friends.

Once you have a certain amount of money, happiness does not increase with more money and eventually declines.

What? Or to have the kind of career that only an elite college can open for you? I work in finance and I know there are banks and money managers who will *only* recruit from the ivy league. They do that because they can, because they get SO many applicants that they can easily afford to be choosy. I know finance is not most people's idea of a good time so substitute any competitive career (journalism, magazines, book publishing, politics, museum curating, certain high profile tech companies) for what I just said.

Which just shows how ignorant the old school finance world is. Google did a study, after only hiring from elite schools. They changed their model and found student from elite schools were not better employees than students from state schools.

You need to educate yourself on the current trends in new business and hiring. advising your kids on knowledge that is 30 years old will not serve them well.

Different PP here. But those firms (law, finance, et cetera) that only recruit from Ivy Leagues *are* the rat race. If OP's daughter is exhausted by the rat race as a teenager, what makes you think she'll be happy in that world?

If the point in running the rat race as a teen is to gain entry to an adult rat race where the pressure is even higher and more cutthroat, then it doesn't seem worth it. I suspect that is OP's daughter's point. Her question isn't necessarily, "What is the point?" Her question is actually, "When does it end? When does it get better?"

I'm the PP who said if I had a child who seemed to have the aptitude/ability and interest in a trade, I'd advocate getting training and certification in a trade but also getting a bachelor's from a relatively ("relative" being the key word) inexpensive college just for the sake of having the piece of paper. That stems from figuring out what kind of career training will provide BOTH job security/stability AND work-life balance. I believe that finding a career that hits that sweet spot is probably the best recipe for a happy life.

[Anonymous]

Students at elite schools are charming, have non-stop motors, they're machines. Students at lower tier schools can be smart (but let's be honest, most aren't) but they lack "it" factor.

Where you went to college is a badge. Of course there are successful people from every four year college, but it's not one alum that defines the school, it's the range of students. The entire bottom half of a Big State U is idiots, many of which graduate, which stigmatizes you even if you're the top 10%.

As someone who transferred to an elite after a year at a top public U, I can say it is night and day. To the point I just laugh when folks say it doesn't matter, there are smart kids at every school, hype some pointless honors program, etc.

[Anonymous]

The point of learning is to make your brain an interesting place to be. That's why you learn as much as possible.

[Anonymous]

Elite college admissions work like a stamp of quality: get into an elite, and you have been vetted — employers can count on some degree of literacy and intelligence. The effort & money is well spent for the stamp of approval alone. Some degree programs work like that, too, e.g. Illinois engineering, Carnegie Mellon computer science.

For most other colleges, the admission and degree don't provide that. You have to rely on hard work and demonstrated ability to convince employers and grad schools that you can think and lead -- not unfair, but certainly not as easy as being accepted from the word go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stanley Hauerwas wrote a beautiful piece in the magazine First Things back in 2010 for Christian students heading off to college.

Thanks for sharing!

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Students at elite schools are charming, have non-stop motors, they're machines. Students at lower tier schools can be smart (but let's be honest, most aren't) but they lack "it" factor.

Where you went to college is a badge. Of course there are successful people from every four year college, but it's not one alum that defines the school, it's the range of students. The entire bottom half of a Big State U is idiots, many of which graduate, which stigmatizes you even if you're the top 10%.

As someone who transferred to an elite after a year at a top public U, I can say it is night and day. To the point I just laugh when folks say it doesn't matter, there are smart kids at every school, hype some pointless honors program, etc.

I'm guessing there wasn't a writing requirement at your "elite"...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you have a strong IQ and a work ethic you don't need any of it.

A college graduate makes substantially more over the course of their life than a high school graduate. You don't need an elite education, but you do need a college education, if you can get one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Elite college admissions work like a stamp of quality: get into an elite, and you have been vetted — employers can count on some degree of literacy and intelligence. The effort & money is well spent for the stamp of approval alone. Some degree programs work like that, too, e.g. Illinois engineering, Carnegie Mellon computer science.

For most other colleges, the admission and degree don't provide that. You have to rely on hard work and demonstrated ability to convince employers and grad schools that you can think and lead -- not unfair, but certainly not as easy as being accepted from the word go.

You are hugely insecure if you look to others for this kind of validation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Students at elite schools are charming, have non-stop motors, they're machines. Students at lower tier schools can be smart (but let's be honest, most aren't) but they lack "it" factor.

Where you went to college is a badge. Of course there are successful people from every four year college, but it's not one alum that defines the school, it's the range of students. The entire bottom half of a Big State U is idiots, many of which graduate, which stigmatizes you even if you're the top 10%.

As someone who transferred to an elite after a year at a top public U, I can say it is night and day. To the point I just laugh when folks say it doesn't matter, there are smart kids at every school, hype some pointless honors program, etc.

I'm guessing there wasn't a writing requirement at your "elite"...

Two types of people obsessed with grammar and syntax: journalists and deeply insecure people w stalled careers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In reference to the rat race, the fixation with elite colleges, all hoop jumping, all the tutoring, etc. For a moment I was speechless. In the end I just told her, "You'll regret it if you don't push yourself." What is the point?

Hmm, I regret pushing myself so hard. I pushed very hard through high school, went to a highly selective college, graduated with honors but hugely burnt out, and spent the next 5 years trying to find myself again. I had no idea why I was there or what I wanted to learn or do. If you arrive at the prestigious school the wrong way -- just because you did everything your parents asked -- you won't know what to make of the opportunities there.

+1. This was my experience also. Total waste of money (which I don't regret because it was their dream, not mine). But also of time - and that I do regret because going to the wrong college has affected me negatively for the rest of my life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No substitute for an elite campus. Folks that haven't attended one can't possibly understand the diff in ethos.

It's tacky to say out loud, I guess, but the diff between her social circle and prospective spouses at Penn and Big State U is night and day.

On-campus recruiting is night and day.

Grad school placement is night and day.

And on and on.

Prospective spouses better at elite schools? BS