Iman preached anti-gay message in Orlando a few weeks ago

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was the Imam who spoke in Orlando of gays needing to be killed , mentally ill? How about the Imam of the Mosque that invited him? Mentally ill? The people that listened to him without saying "Hey, you need to leave NOW"? Mentally ill?

I don't know the mental state of any of them. But, they are in the same boat as the Christian paster I mentioned in the second post of this thread who called for killing gays while Mike Huckabee and Ted Cruz listened with no objection (or objection from you). All of them are sick as far as I'm concerned.

But not as far as any psychologist is concerned. The vast vast majority of people doing mass killings are not considered mentally ill. That's hard to swallow, but it's true. And only once you acknowledge that can you start to fix the problem.

Cite please? I think the vast vast majority of people doing mass killings are considered to have personality disorders, which is mental illness in my book.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/16/opinion/dont-blame-mental-illness-for-gun-violence.html?_r=0

"According to one epidemiological estimate, entirely eliminating the effects of mental illness would reduce all violence by only 4 percent. Over all, less than 5 percent of gun homicides between 2001 and 2010 were committed by people with diagnoses of mental illness, according to a public health study published this year."

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was the Imam who spoke in Orlando of gays needing to be killed , mentally ill? How about the Imam of the Mosque that invited him? Mentally ill? The people that listened to him without saying "Hey, you need to leave NOW"? Mentally ill?

I don't know the mental state of any of them. But, they are in the same boat as the Christian paster I mentioned in the second post of this thread who called for killing gays while Mike Huckabee and Ted Cruz listened with no objection (or objection from you). All of them are sick as far as I'm concerned.

The difference? Cruz and Hucksbee come from a known position of religious freedom and first amendment rights. The Imam? Not so much.

I'm not sure that individuals who support discrimination on the basis of religion can be said to be known to support religious freedom. Huckabee and Cruz are not like the Imam, they are like the folks who listened to the iman and didn't object. You are like the people who heard about the imam and excused him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was the Imam who spoke in Orlando of gays needing to be killed , mentally ill? How about the Imam of the Mosque that invited him? Mentally ill? The people that listened to him without saying "Hey, you need to leave NOW"? Mentally ill?

I don't know the mental state of any of them. But, they are in the same boat as the Christian paster I mentioned in the second post of this thread who called for killing gays while Mike Huckabee and Ted Cruz listened with no objection (or objection from you). All of them are sick as far as I'm concerned.

But not as far as any psychologist is concerned. The vast vast majority of people doing mass killings are not considered mentally ill. That's hard to swallow, but it's true. And only once you acknowledge that can you start to fix the problem.

Cite please? I think the vast vast majority of people doing mass killings are considered to have personality disorders, which is mental illness in my book.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/16/opinion/dont-blame-mental-illness-for-gun-violence.html?_r=0

"According to one epidemiological estimate, entirely eliminating the effects of mental illness would reduce all violence by only 4 percent. Over all, less than 5 percent of gun homicides between 2001 and 2010 were committed by people with diagnoses of mental illness, according to a public health study published this year."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/

"connections between mental illness and gun violence are less causal and more complex than current US public opinion and legislative action allow. US gun rights advocates are fond of the phrase “guns don’t kill people, people do.” The findings cited earlier in this article suggest that neither guns nor people exist in isolation from social or historical influences. A growing body of data reveals that US gun crime happens when guns and people come together in particular, destructive ways. That is to say, gun violence in all its forms has a social context, and that context is not something that “mental illness” can describe nor that mental health practitioners can be expected to address in isolation."

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/16/opinion/dont-blame-mental-illness-for-gun-violence.html?_r=0

"According to one epidemiological estimate, entirely eliminating the effects of mental illness would reduce all violence by only 4 percent. Over all, less than 5 percent of gun homicides between 2001 and 2010 were committed by people with diagnoses of mental illness, according to a public health study published this year."

We are discussing apples and you are providing statistics about oranges. We aren't discussing gun violence in general. We are discussing mass shootings. There is a difference between shooting someone while holding up a gas station and going into a club and shooting over 100 people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was the Imam who spoke in Orlando of gays needing to be killed , mentally ill? How about the Imam of the Mosque that invited him? Mentally ill? The people that listened to him without saying "Hey, you need to leave NOW"? Mentally ill?

I don't know the mental state of any of them. But, they are in the same boat as the Christian paster I mentioned in the second post of this thread who called for killing gays while Mike Huckabee and Ted Cruz listened with no objection (or objection from you). All of them are sick as far as I'm concerned.

But not as far as any psychologist is concerned. The vast vast majority of people doing mass killings are not considered mentally ill. That's hard to swallow, but it's true. And only once you acknowledge that can you start to fix the problem.

Cite please? I think the vast vast majority of people doing mass killings are considered to have personality disorders, which is mental illness in my book.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/16/opinion/dont-blame-mental-illness-for-gun-violence.html?_r=0

"According to one epidemiological estimate, entirely eliminating the effects of mental illness would reduce all violence by only 4 percent. Over all, less than 5 percent of gun homicides between 2001 and 2010 were committed by people with diagnoses of mental illness, according to a public health study published this year."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/

"connections between mental illness and gun violence are less causal and more complex than current US public opinion and legislative action allow. US gun rights advocates are fond of the phrase “guns don’t kill people, people do.” The findings cited earlier in this article suggest that neither guns nor people exist in isolation from social or historical influences. A growing body of data reveals that US gun crime happens when guns and people come together in particular, destructive ways. That is to say, gun violence in all its forms has a social context, and that context is not something that “mental illness” can describe nor that mental health practitioners can be expected to address in isolation."

Interesting! I stand corrected. In any event, still don't think Islam is the cause. If "social context" is the issue, then gun culture, homophobia, racism, misogyny are just as likely to be causal factors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was the Imam who spoke in Orlando of gays needing to be killed , mentally ill? How about the Imam of the Mosque that invited him? Mentally ill? The people that listened to him without saying "Hey, you need to leave NOW"? Mentally ill?

I don't know the mental state of any of them. But, they are in the same boat as the Christian paster I mentioned in the second post of this thread who called for killing gays while Mike Huckabee and Ted Cruz listened with no objection (or objection from you). All of them are sick as far as I'm concerned.

But not as far as any psychologist is concerned. The vast vast majority of people doing mass killings are not considered mentally ill. That's hard to swallow, but it's true. And only once you acknowledge that can you start to fix the problem.

Cite please? I think the vast vast majority of people doing mass killings are considered to have personality disorders, which is mental illness in my book.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/16/opinion/dont-blame-mental-illness-for-gun-violence.html?_r=0

"According to one epidemiological estimate, entirely eliminating the effects of mental illness would reduce all violence by only 4 percent. Over all, less than 5 percent of gun homicides between 2001 and 2010 were committed by people with diagnoses of mental illness, according to a public health study published this year."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/

"connections between mental illness and gun violence are less causal and more complex than current US public opinion and legislative action allow. US gun rights advocates are fond of the phrase “guns don’t kill people, people do.” The findings cited earlier in this article suggest that neither guns nor people exist in isolation from social or historical influences. A growing body of data reveals that US gun crime happens when guns and people come together in particular, destructive ways. That is to say, gun violence in all its forms has a social context, and that context is not something that “mental illness” can describe nor that mental health practitioners can be expected to address in isolation."

Interesting! I stand corrected. In any event, still don't think Islam is the cause. If "social context" is the issue, then gun culture, homophobia, racism, misogyny are just as likely to be causal factors.

^^^ Wait, Jeff had a great point! Wow, Jeff, your brain is staying sharp while I'm just getting tired of this thread...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There almost seems to be an agenda in the media. Almost as soon as this happens, oeople were out there saying he is mentally ill. He beat his ex-wife. He's bipolar. Etc.

Having mental illness, beating your wife, being bipolar, none of that makes a person murder 50 people. We would have millions of mass murders every day of those things creates mass murderers. Sorry but those are just excuses for his religious beliefs.

There are even more Muslims then there are mentally ill wife beaters. Why are you ruling out mental illness and blaming religion? It would seem reasonable to consider both possibilities.

I can point to documented information from law enforcement re: his extremist views and actions. Can you point to documented medical reports of his that indicate he was mentally ill?

Please point to that documentation. I fully expect that before the investigation is complete, there will be plenty of evidence of his mental instability.

FBI. He was known to them. Immediately. They do not follow a man for two years for suspected terror ties due to his pattern of behavior, without reason. Far more suspicious, is the dropping of him from their investigation, only to have him come back a short time later and shoot up a gay club. They knew he was bad news all along. I'm sure the Obama administration will deem him mentally ill, as will the press. That's their M.O. And you will find others that will state he was NOT mentally ill at all. Obama will admonish FBI for not doing their job right and perhaps sacrifice someone at DHS. That's the M.O.

Problem is, fewer and fewer of the American people are believing it. Nor are they accepting the beat downs anymore (like what just happened on your very own forum when that nice lesbian woman didn't toe the liberal line). While we realize it's hard for some people to accept the realities of evil, we will not allow those who can't accept it to march us to our deaths either. It's pretty clear to me from all the twisting and turning on this forum and in the liberal media, that feeling good about one''s self, and how others see them, is so important to liberals, that it overrules logic.

Was the Imam who spoke in Orlando of gays needing to be killed , mentally ill? How about the Imam of the Mosque that invited him? Mentally ill? The people that listened to him without saying "Hey, you need to leave NOW"? Mentally ill?

Crossing the line to mass murder is what makes someone mentally ill. You countenance Trump's hate. I don't think you're mentally ill. Just lazy and stupid.

Psst: this is one of those rare occasions where the left wing libs all agree it was an ISIS supporting terrorist who committed the largest terrorist act in US history since 9/11. So we win already, no need to argue. We can go nite nite.

But in the libs defense, verily, even if a book tells somebody to kill people, or a church, friend, horoscope, boogeyman, whoever, in my eyes the killer is a lunatic.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/16/opinion/dont-blame-mental-illness-for-gun-violence.html?_r=0

"According to one epidemiological estimate, entirely eliminating the effects of mental illness would reduce all violence by only 4 percent. Over all, less than 5 percent of gun homicides between 2001 and 2010 were committed by people with diagnoses of mental illness, according to a public health study published this year."

We are discussing apples and you are providing statistics about oranges. We aren't discussing gun violence in general. We are discussing mass shootings. There is a difference between shooting someone while holding up a gas station and going into a club and shooting over 100 people.

Yes, you're right. I did read somewhere (can't find it now) that the number is somewhere between 30-50%.

Though I wonder, why have mass shootings been rising? Is it really possible that the prevalence of mental disorders is rising? Maybe we should be blaming guns and not religion and mental illness. Or maybe, just the common denominator: men.

[Anonymous]

I don't hesitate to condemn the Imam, but that doesn't make every Muslim in Florida a criminal or a pariah.

I don't like religious fundamentalism in any religion because they are all about shunning and scapegoating and hating groups of people, and we should argue openly against those beliefs and interpretations, but we don't jail people for what they think or what we think that they think, we base our laws on actions that cause harm. There are still a lot of people in America who are racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, and so but the beliefs are not crimes.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/16/opinion/dont-blame-mental-illness-for-gun-violence.html?_r=0

"According to one epidemiological estimate, entirely eliminating the effects of mental illness would reduce all violence by only 4 percent. Over all, less than 5 percent of gun homicides between 2001 and 2010 were committed by people with diagnoses of mental illness, according to a public health study published this year."

We are discussing apples and you are providing statistics about oranges. We aren't discussing gun violence in general. We are discussing mass shootings. There is a difference between shooting someone while holding up a gas station and going into a club and shooting over 100 people.

Yes, you're right. I did read somewhere (can't find it now) that the number is somewhere between 30-50%.

Though I wonder, why have mass shootings been rising? Is it really possible that the prevalence of mental disorders is rising? Maybe we should be blaming guns and not religion and mental illness. Or maybe, just the common denominator: men.

Rather than determining what to blame, we should probably study the subject more and let the facts determine the cause. But, it is pretty obvious that many white males in the US are undergoing what could be described as psychological trauma. That in many ways explains Trump. As I mentioned earlier, it is easy to guess that many Muslims -- male and female -- in the US are as well. With psychological pressures bearing down on large groups of people, it is not surprising that some snap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't hesitate to condemn the Imam, but that doesn't make every Muslim in Florida a criminal or a pariah.

I don't like religious fundamentalism in any religion because they are all about shunning and scapegoating and hating groups of people, and we should argue openly against those beliefs and interpretations, but we don't jail people for what they think or what we think that they think, we base our laws on actions that cause harm. There are still a lot of people in America who are racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, and so but the beliefs are not crimes.

I don't like any religion or hateful belief system, but it does appear that a far greater percentage of muslims are fundamentalists than any of us should be comfortable with:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2013/12/13/how-widespread-is-islamic-fundamentalism-in-western-europe/

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/16/opinion/dont-blame-mental-illness-for-gun-violence.html?_r=0

"According to one epidemiological estimate, entirely eliminating the effects of mental illness would reduce all violence by only 4 percent. Over all, less than 5 percent of gun homicides between 2001 and 2010 were committed by people with diagnoses of mental illness, according to a public health study published this year."

We are discussing apples and you are providing statistics about oranges. We aren't discussing gun violence in general. We are discussing mass shootings. There is a difference between shooting someone while holding up a gas station and going into a club and shooting over 100 people.

Yes, you're right. I did read somewhere (can't find it now) that the number is somewhere between 30-50%.

Though I wonder, why have mass shootings been rising? Is it really possible that the prevalence of mental disorders is rising? Maybe we should be blaming guns and not religion and mental illness. Or maybe, just the common denominator: men.

Rather than determining what to blame, we should probably study the subject more and let the facts determine the cause. But, it is pretty obvious that many white males in the US are undergoing what could be described as psychological trauma. That in many ways explains Trump. As I mentioned earlier, it is easy to guess that many Muslims -- male and female -- in the US are as well. With psychological pressures bearing down on large groups of people, it is not surprising that some snap.

Ah, but congress won't let the CDC study gun violence, remember? And we elect these assholes to "protect" us.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't hesitate to condemn the Imam, but that doesn't make every Muslim in Florida a criminal or a pariah.

I don't like religious fundamentalism in any religion because they are all about shunning and scapegoating and hating groups of people, and we should argue openly against those beliefs and interpretations, but we don't jail people for what they think or what we think that they think, we base our laws on actions that cause harm. There are still a lot of people in America who are racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, and so but the beliefs are not crimes.

I don't like any religion or hateful belief system, but it does appear that a far greater percentage of muslims are fundamentalists than any of us should be comfortable with:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2013/12/13/how-widespread-is-islamic-fundamentalism-in-western-europe/

Those are Muslims in Western Europe. It does not necessarily reflect the attitudes of Muslims world-wide or in the US. Stats provided by Pew Research cited earlier in this thread show that American Muslims are more accepting of gays then evangelical Christians and not that far off from all Christians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sheikh Farrokh Sekaleshfar, a British-born scholar who currently lives in Iran and travels the world to spread his hateful message, preached at the Husseini Islamic Center in the Orlando suburb of Sanford last month. The sermon -- delivered behind closed doors -- was titled, “How to deal with the phenomenon of homosexuality” and raised the ire of local LGBT community leaders.

The sermon came just three years after Sekaleshfar had spoken at another engagement in the U.S. where he discussed his twisted idea of “compassion” for gay people.

“Death is the sentence. There’s nothing to be embarrassed about this. Death is the sentence,” Sekaleshfar said during a 2013 sermon at the University of Michigan, according to Orlando-based WFTV 9. “We have to have that compassion for people. With homosexuals, it’s the same. Out of compassion, let’s get rid of them now.”

Thought you might like to know he was not here to "preach", he was participating in and academic discussion at U of M about living under strict Islamic law and what that means. Sloppy journalism to take in out of context like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But we do, at least in my liberal circles, condemn Christians who are homophobic and call for the persecution of gays.

However, we are far less likely to apply the same standards to Muslims out of a fear of appearing to be Trump-like.

Why would you do that? Doesn't make any sense.