Iman preached anti-gay message in Orlando a few weeks ago

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The finger-pointing at Christians is simply a deflection. Two people were stabbed in Paris last night - Islamic terrorism.

FBI took the Orlando killer off the list a week before the attacks, because he started screaming racism. Sounds to me like the guy knew exactly how to play this administration.

There is more evidence every minute that the Orlando shooter had very conflicted feelings about homosexuality, suffered from mental health issues, and wasn't very religious. Your emphasis on his religion while complete ignoring everything else reflects your own prejudices. The fact that you excuse non-Muslim religious figures who call for killing gays is further evidence of that.

Actually he co-worker said he prayed at work several times a day on his prayer mat. He also went to Mecca two years in a row. He was religious.

He was going through the motions. Nobody who was really close to him -- except maybe his father and I'm not even sure about him -- has described him as being very religious. His ex-wife specifically said the opposite.

Correct but after he divorced he apparently became more religious and visited Meccas two years in a row and he did bring his prayer mat to work at his current job and prayed at work. That is VERY religious as I know Muslims who do not pray during the day. If you are praying at work or at school during the day you are generally considered quite religious, no?

Generally if you are praying at work or school you are considered extremely religious. But, this guy appears to have been high on the nut job scale, so who knows what was going on? I also don't know how solid the claim about him praying actually is. It's strange that classmates, coworkers, or friends will say completely opposite things about him. Hanging out in a bar and getting drunk certainly doesn't correspond with being an extremely religious Muslim.

Yes I see your point. He obviously was nuts. We need to examine the relationship though because whether he was crazy or not, he did called 911 and pledged his support to ISIS, he did visit Mecca twice, his current co-walkers say he was religious and did pray at work, etc… His father and wife may be trying to distance him from Islam in fear of retaliation. Who knows? Very sad and scary.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:I'm aware of the Lot connection, thanks. I actually am quite familiar with Islam. To re-iterate, whatever you think of Lot and his wife, Jesus' strictures against humans taking justice into their own hands, as PP said, means that the death penalty, or taking justice onto your own hands, for anything including but not limited to homosexuality, is on extremely dubious scriptural grounds. Sure there are Christian supporters of the death penalty (for other murderers only, not for homosexuals or apostates), but the fact that the Catholic Church opposes the death penalty is telling.

I think that you are missing my point. While some Christians find justification for killing gays in the story of Lot, others -- like you -- say that such interpretations are wrong. The verses in the Quran, based on the same story, are subject to the same debate. Your suggestion is that because the Quran is considered the word of God, there is no debate. That is simply incorrect. Therefore, you can point to a verse and say, "that is scriptural support to kill gays", but I can find Muslims who will say that those verses don't mean what you think they do.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Not that PP, but I think her point was that you can find stronger scriptural support in Islam than in Christianity. The Quran has several passages condemning homosexuality, and several passages of Hadith prescribe death for homosexuals. As you know, the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of God, and the Hadith are supposed to be reliable although there's debate about some of them.

You won't find any recorded sayings by Jesus on homosexuality, let alone calling for death for homosexuals. For condemnation of homosexuality in the New Testament you have to go to Paul's letters, and Paul does not call for death. In any case many mainstream Christians regard Paul's letters as pastoral, and very rooted in his own time and culture, and do not give them the universal and timeless weight they give to Jesus' sayings. For the death penalty, you have to look on the Old Testament--but PP is absolutely right that Jesus clearly and specifically denied and banned humans' ability to make judgements, particularly judgements involving death, that are God's to make. FWIW, I've had long debates on the religious forum with a fundie who opposes homosexuality. These are the reasons many Protestant churches find it OK to allow gay marriage and even gay pastors.

So, if you're a Christian or Muslim who is mentally ill (as I believe the Orlando shooter will be shown to be) or even sane, you can find scriptural support in the Quran for disapproval although not for killing homosexuals. Only fringe Christians think it's OK to kill homosexuals, also I didn't hear that Cruz freak show citing actual Bible passages.

Signed, a liberal who thinks we need to acknowledge these things

If you actually study what purports to be "scriptural support in Islam" for killing homosexuals, you will find that it is not as clear as you seem to believe and, in fact even relies upon the same Old Testament story of Sodom that homophobic Christians often cite. While the Quran is believed to be the word of God, the exact meaning of those words is heavily debated. God did not speak very plainly -- something of which anyone who attempts to read the Quran quickly becomes painfully aware.

Obviously, anyone seeking to find justification for killing gays can find it Islam, just as they can in Christianity. Indeed, here are examples of two Baptist preachers who praised the Orlando killings:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/roger-jimenez-steven-anderson-pastors-praise-orlando

"Are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?" Jimenez said in a sermon originally posted on YouTube. "Um no, I think that’s great! I think that helps society. I think Orlando, Florida is a little safer tonight."

Tempe, Arizona preacher Steven Anderson also rushed to praise the "good news" that “there are 50 less pedophiles in this world."

So, of course, most people will call these two preachers fringe elements. But, most Muslims will call ISIS a fringe group -- one that mostly targets other Muslims.

Signed, a liberal who thinks other liberals are often misinformed about Islam.

the Old Testament predates Jesus and Christianity altogether. Jesus said no more killings or stonings or judgments. there is no support in Christianity for reverting back to any Old Testament forms of judgement and punishment like stoning. And frankly, I dont even know if mosaic law itself said to kill homosexuals. i doubt it. you just cannot say with any logic that christianity supports that. it is nowhere in the entire new testament. it only says do not be homosexual, and do not judge or kill. that is it.

There is no need to explain that to me. You need to explain it to all the self-described Christians -- including many ministers -- who find justifications in Christianity for their homophobia.

This is something I've always tried to point out. What one person claims Christianity says, another person will completely contradict. Which one speaks for Christians? The same is true in Islam. Sure, you can find Muslims who believe terrible things. You can also find Muslims who believe those things are anti-Islamic. Just as in Christianity we don't allow the extremists to be representative of the religion, we shouldn't do that for Islam either. Ironically, both Muslim extremists and Islamophobes have a mutual interest in making the radicals be the religion's representatives.

We're straying from PP's original point, which is that there's much greater scriptural support for anti-gay bigotry in the Quran, which further is seen as the literal word of God, than in Christianity. You can bring up the small minority of whack jobs all you like, but this scriptural comparison is hard to refute.

One of my Muslim friends is very liberal, but if you let her get started on gays it's fairly awful to hear. So I never let the conversation go there.

I've said before that Islam needs a Reformation. The Hadith, for example the ones calling for killing gays, would be a good place to start. You chose to interpret this as saying *I* want to lead this reformation, and trashed and mocked me. For the record, I never said that, and your response seemed like another deflection. Also, there are Muslims who want to do the job. For example, Irshad Manji has a lot to say about Islam and gays--for various reasons (not the least that she's a woman) she wouldn't be a good leader, but voices like hers need to be heard.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm aware of the Lot connection, thanks. I actually am quite familiar with Islam. To re-iterate, whatever you think of Lot and his wife, Jesus' strictures against humans taking justice into their own hands, as PP said, means that the death penalty, or taking justice onto your own hands, for anything including but not limited to homosexuality, is on extremely dubious scriptural grounds. Sure there are Christian supporters of the death penalty (for other murderers only, not for homosexuals or apostates), but the fact that the Catholic Church opposes the death penalty is telling.

I think that you are missing my point. While some Christians find justification for killing gays in the story of Lot, others -- like you -- say that such interpretations are wrong. The verses in the Quran, based on the same story, are subject to the same debate. Your suggestion is that because the Quran is considered the word of God, there is no debate. That is simply incorrect. Therefore, you can point to a verse and say, "that is scriptural support to kill gays", but I can find Muslims who will say that those verses don't mean what you think they do.

I heard your point and I share your dismay about homophobic Christians.

You're choosing to miss my point about the relative weight of scriptural support in the two religions.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
We're straying from PP's original point, which is that there's much greater scriptural support for anti-gay bigotry in the Quran, which further is seen as the literal word of God, than in Christianity. You can bring up the small minority of whack jobs all you like, but this scriptural comparison is hard to refute.

I have responded to this point several times and either you are not reading or are refusing to consider what I've written. I'll just repost my response above your post (which you probably didn't see because you were typing your post):

While some Christians find justification for killing gays in the story of Lot, others -- like you -- say that such interpretations are wrong. The verses in the Quran, based on the same story, are subject to the same debate. Your suggestion is that because the Quran is considered the word of God, there is no debate. That is simply incorrect. Therefore, you can point to a verse and say, "that is scriptural support to kill gays", but I can find Muslims who will say that those verses don't mean what you think they do.

Anyone who claims to be knowledgeable about Islam, yet thinks that all Muslims agree on the exact meaning of Quranic verses, is not as knowledgeable as they believe.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm aware of the Lot connection, thanks. I actually am quite familiar with Islam. To re-iterate, whatever you think of Lot and his wife, Jesus' strictures against humans taking justice into their own hands, as PP said, means that the death penalty, or taking justice onto your own hands, for anything including but not limited to homosexuality, is on extremely dubious scriptural grounds. Sure there are Christian supporters of the death penalty (for other murderers only, not for homosexuals or apostates), but the fact that the Catholic Church opposes the death penalty is telling.

I think that you are missing my point. While some Christians find justification for killing gays in the story of Lot, others -- like you -- say that such interpretations are wrong. The verses in the Quran, based on the same story, are subject to the same debate. Your suggestion is that because the Quran is considered the word of God, there is no debate. That is simply incorrect. Therefore, you can point to a verse and say, "that is scriptural support to kill gays", but I can find Muslims who will say that those verses don't mean what you think they do.

I heard your point and I share your dismay about homophobic Christians.

You're choosing to miss my point about the relative weight of scriptural support in the two religions.

The relative weight is the same. It is whatever someone chooses to give it. Some Christians give what is in the Bible more weight in this regard then you do. Some Muslims do the same regarding the Quran. Again, you are not acknowledging that there is debate over the so-called "scriptural support" in the Quran. It is not a clear cut case of agreement as you seem to believe.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm aware of the Lot connection, thanks. I actually am quite familiar with Islam. To re-iterate, whatever you think of Lot and his wife, Jesus' strictures against humans taking justice into their own hands, as PP said, means that the death penalty, or taking justice onto your own hands, for anything including but not limited to homosexuality, is on extremely dubious scriptural grounds. Sure there are Christian supporters of the death penalty (for other murderers only, not for homosexuals or apostates), but the fact that the Catholic Church opposes the death penalty is telling.

I think that you are missing my point. While some Christians find justification for killing gays in the story of Lot, others -- like you -- say that such interpretations are wrong. The verses in the Quran, based on the same story, are subject to the same debate. Your suggestion is that because the Quran is considered the word of God, there is no debate. That is simply incorrect. Therefore, you can point to a verse and say, "that is scriptural support to kill gays", but I can find Muslims who will say that those verses don't mean what you think they do.

PS, I'm sorry you deleted the first part of my post, which pointed out that these two guys, and other homophobic Christians, (1) don't call for gays to be killed, even if these two celebrated it with disgusting words, and (2) don't cite scripture.

These are important points in drawing the differences.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm aware of the Lot connection, thanks. I actually am quite familiar with Islam. To re-iterate, whatever you think of Lot and his wife, Jesus' strictures against humans taking justice into their own hands, as PP said, means that the death penalty, or taking justice onto your own hands, for anything including but not limited to homosexuality, is on extremely dubious scriptural grounds. Sure there are Christian supporters of the death penalty (for other murderers only, not for homosexuals or apostates), but the fact that the Catholic Church opposes the death penalty is telling.

I think that you are missing my point. While some Christians find justification for killing gays in the story of Lot, others -- like you -- say that such interpretations are wrong. The verses in the Quran, based on the same story, are subject to the same debate. Your suggestion is that because the Quran is considered the word of God, there is no debate. That is simply incorrect. Therefore, you can point to a verse and say, "that is scriptural support to kill gays", but I can find Muslims who will say that those verses don't mean what you think they do.

I heard your point and I share your dismay about homophobic Christians.

You're choosing to miss my point about the relative weight of scriptural support in the two religions.

The relative weight is the same. It is whatever someone chooses to give it. Some Christians give what is in the Bible more weight in this regard then you do. Some Muslims do the same regarding the Quran. Again, you are not acknowledging that there is debate over the so-called "scriptural support" in the Quran. It is not a clear cut case of agreement as you seem to believe.

Please provide the counter-arguments, then. It seems that these would have to stray from the idea of Quranic inerrancy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There almost seems to be an agenda in the media. Almost as soon as this happens, oeople were out there saying he is mentally ill. He beat his ex-wife. He's bipolar. Etc.

Having mental illness, beating your wife, being bipolar, none of that makes a person murder 50 people. We would have millions of mass murders every day of those things creates mass murderers. Sorry but those are just excuses for his religious beliefs.

What was Dylan Roof's excuse. Is he a terrorist. Was Aaron Alexis a terrorist? Neither were Muslim, but both committed mass mirders. I believe the Columbine kids were Christian. Was Christianity their excuse for their mayhem?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm aware of the Lot connection, thanks. I actually am quite familiar with Islam. To re-iterate, whatever you think of Lot and his wife, Jesus' strictures against humans taking justice into their own hands, as PP said, means that the death penalty, or taking justice onto your own hands, for anything including but not limited to homosexuality, is on extremely dubious scriptural grounds. Sure there are Christian supporters of the death penalty (for other murderers only, not for homosexuals or apostates), but the fact that the Catholic Church opposes the death penalty is telling.

I think that you are missing my point. While some Christians find justification for killing gays in the story of Lot, others -- like you -- say that such interpretations are wrong. The verses in the Quran, based on the same story, are subject to the same debate. Your suggestion is that because the Quran is considered the word of God, there is no debate. That is simply incorrect. Therefore, you can point to a verse and say, "that is scriptural support to kill gays", but I can find Muslims who will say that those verses don't mean what you think they do.

PS, I'm sorry you deleted the first part of my post, which pointed out that these two guys, and other homophobic Christians, (1) don't call for gays to be killed, even if these two celebrated it with disgusting words, and (2) don't cite scripture.

These are important points in drawing the differences.

I could spend a few minutes Googling and find Christians who do both those things. You points are not particularly convincing given that counter examples exist, something of which I'm sure you are aware. Indeed, just watch the video I embedded in the second post of this thread in which the pastor does cite scripture and call for killing gays.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The finger-pointing at Christians is simply a deflection. Two people were stabbed in Paris last night - Islamic terrorism.

FBI took the Orlando killer off the list a week before the attacks, because he started screaming racism. Sounds to me like the guy knew exactly how to play this administration.

There is more evidence every minute that the Orlando shooter had very conflicted feelings about homosexuality, suffered from mental health issues, and wasn't very religious. Your emphasis on his religion while complete ignoring everything else reflects your own prejudices. The fact that you excuse non-Muslim religious figures who call for killing gays is further evidence of that.

Actually he co-worker said he prayed at work several times a day on his prayer mat. He also went to Mecca two years in a row. He was religious.

He was going through the motions. Nobody who was really close to him -- except maybe his father and I'm not even sure about him -- has described him as being very religious. His ex-wife specifically said the opposite.

You should read NBC's latest about the wife. Seems the police are unravelling her as her story keeps changing. She might be charged at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I suggest you look at what FBI profilers say about organized crime vs. disorganized crime, planning vs. no planning, and what constitutes true mental illness.

Islamic extremism is not mental illness. It's a way of life.

There is no evidence that the shooter followed a way of life that was even close to being Islamic, let alone extremist Islamic. As you noted yourself, he frequented the club and got drunk frequently.

He did this in the name of his religion. Never mind, you know better than him. Just ignore that he called 911 to pledge allegiance to ISIS.

Yeah, he pledged allegiance to ISIS, al Quaeda, and Al Nusura. It's impossible to be in alliance with all three groups, as they are all fighting each other.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
We're straying from PP's original point, which is that there's much greater scriptural support for anti-gay bigotry in the Quran, which further is seen as the literal word of God, than in Christianity. You can bring up the small minority of whack jobs all you like, but this scriptural comparison is hard to refute.

I have responded to this point several times and either you are not reading or are refusing to consider what I've written. I'll just repost my response above your post (which you probably didn't see because you were typing your post):

While some Christians find justification for killing gays in the story of Lot, others -- like you -- say that such interpretations are wrong. The verses in the Quran, based on the same story, are subject to the same debate. Your suggestion is that because the Quran is considered the word of God, there is no debate. That is simply incorrect. Therefore, you can point to a verse and say, "that is scriptural support to kill gays", but I can find Muslims who will say that those verses don't mean what you think they do.

Anyone who claims to be knowledgeable about Islam, yet thinks that all Muslims agree on the exact meaning of Quranic verses, is not as knowledgeable as they believe.

Once more with feeling: I heard you. I even agree with you, that Christians differ in their interpretations. I'm sorry my agreement on this point has not been obvious to you. Can we move on?

You seem determined to ignore my point, however. That's that the Quran has homophobic passages, and is also seen as God's literal word and is therefore pretty hard to ignore. You've done a lot of waving your hands and saying that some Muslims (who, a handful in the West, like Manji?) interpret this differently (how, no more Quranic inerrancy?). But you've offered no examples.

I think these are important points to acknowledge even if you're liberal, like me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I suggest you look at what FBI profilers say about organized crime vs. disorganized crime, planning vs. no planning, and what constitutes true mental illness.

Islamic extremism is not mental illness. It's a way of life.

There is no evidence that the shooter followed a way of life that was even close to being Islamic, let alone extremist Islamic. As you noted yourself, he frequented the club and got drunk frequently.

He did this in the name of his religion. Never mind, you know better than him. Just ignore that he called 911 to pledge allegiance to ISIS.

Yeah, he pledged allegiance to ISIS, al Quaeda, and Al Nusura. It's impossible to be in alliance with all three groups, as they are all fighting each other.

Regardless all three groups have something in common - they all have one thing in common - they are engaging in a jihad in the name of Islam. Can't debate that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm aware of the Lot connection, thanks. I actually am quite familiar with Islam. To re-iterate, whatever you think of Lot and his wife, Jesus' strictures against humans taking justice into their own hands, as PP said, means that the death penalty, or taking justice onto your own hands, for anything including but not limited to homosexuality, is on extremely dubious scriptural grounds. Sure there are Christian supporters of the death penalty (for other murderers only, not for homosexuals or apostates), but the fact that the Catholic Church opposes the death penalty is telling.

I think that you are missing my point. While some Christians find justification for killing gays in the story of Lot, others -- like you -- say that such interpretations are wrong. The verses in the Quran, based on the same story, are subject to the same debate. Your suggestion is that because the Quran is considered the word of God, there is no debate. That is simply incorrect. Therefore, you can point to a verse and say, "that is scriptural support to kill gays", but I can find Muslims who will say that those verses don't mean what you think they do.

PS, I'm sorry you deleted the first part of my post, which pointed out that these two guys, and other homophobic Christians, (1) don't call for gays to be killed, even if these two celebrated it with disgusting words, and (2) don't cite scripture.

These are important points in drawing the differences.

I'm curious as to the editing of your post. Seems like that's shaping a message, against your will?