Iman preached anti-gay message in Orlando a few weeks ago

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Not that PP, but I think her point was that you can find stronger scriptural support in Islam than in Christianity. The Quran has several passages condemning homosexuality, and several passages of Hadith prescribe death for homosexuals. As you know, the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of God, and the Hadith are supposed to be reliable although there's debate about some of them.

You won't find any recorded sayings by Jesus on homosexuality, let alone calling for death for homosexuals. For condemnation of homosexuality in the New Testament you have to go to Paul's letters, and Paul does not call for death. In any case many mainstream Christians regard Paul's letters as pastoral, and very rooted in his own time and culture, and do not give them the universal and timeless weight they give to Jesus' sayings. For the death penalty, you have to look on the Old Testament--but PP is absolutely right that Jesus clearly and specifically denied and banned humans' ability to make judgements, particularly judgements involving death, that are God's to make. FWIW, I've had long debates on the religious forum with a fundie who opposes homosexuality. These are the reasons many Protestant churches find it OK to allow gay marriage and even gay pastors.

So, if you're a Christian or Muslim who is mentally ill (as I believe the Orlando shooter will be shown to be) or even sane, you can find scriptural support in the Quran for disapproval although not for killing homosexuals. Only fringe Christians think it's OK to kill homosexuals, also I didn't hear that Cruz freak show citing actual Bible passages.

Signed, a liberal who thinks we need to acknowledge these things

If you actually study what purports to be "scriptural support in Islam" for killing homosexuals, you will find that it is not as clear as you seem to believe and, in fact even relies upon the same Old Testament story of Sodom that homophobic Christians often cite. While the Quran is believed to be the word of God, the exact meaning of those words is heavily debated. God did not speak very plainly -- something of which anyone who attempts to read the Quran quickly becomes painfully aware.

Obviously, anyone seeking to find justification for killing gays can find it Islam, just as they can in Christianity. Indeed, here are examples of two Baptist preachers who praised the Orlando killings:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/roger-jimenez-steven-anderson-pastors-praise-orlando

"Are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?" Jimenez said in a sermon originally posted on YouTube. "Um no, I think that’s great! I think that helps society. I think Orlando, Florida is a little safer tonight."

Tempe, Arizona preacher Steven Anderson also rushed to praise the "good news" that “there are 50 less pedophiles in this world."

So, of course, most people will call these two preachers fringe elements. But, most Muslims will call ISIS a fringe group -- one that mostly targets other Muslims.

Signed, a liberal who thinks other liberals are often misinformed about Islam.

the Old Testament predates Jesus and Christianity altogether. Jesus said no more killings or stonings or judgments. there is no support in Christianity for reverting back to any Old Testament forms of judgement and punishment like stoning. And frankly, I dont even know if mosaic law itself said to kill homosexuals. i doubt it. you just cannot say with any logic that christianity supports that. it is nowhere in the entire new testament. it only says do not be homosexual, and do not judge or kill. that is it.

Christians use the Old Testament when it supports what they want. the Old Testament predates Jesus when Chistians used it for three hundred years to support slavery.

[Anonymous]

I care.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, we don't agree. We're talking *relative* differences in latitude for scriptural interpretation. You want to make it black and white: you want to say that both Christians and Muslims differ on how to interpret their holy books, end of story. I'm saying that, when your holy book tells you that being gay is bad, and it also claims to be the literal word of God, then we've got a whole different scale of problems in interpreting away from it.

I really don't know what to say. You are simply ignoring what I have written about 10 times. There are some Christians that believe their holy book tells them that being gay is bad. If your argument is that is less important because the Bible is not considered the word of God, I think you are making a meaningless argument. There is no homophobe in existence who justifies his homophobia via the Bible that also offers caveats because the Bible is not God's literal word. To the contrary, such people more than likely do consider the Bible the word of God.

Muslims consider the Quran to be the literal word of God, but they don't agree on the meaning of those words. Some Muslims believe that the Quran says that gays should be killed. Some take the "love the sinner, hate the sin" approach and argue that gay people are okay but gay acts are forbidden -- not unlike the position of some Christians. Others say that being gay is forbidden, but any punishment should be left to God. Others argue that the Quran doesn't forbid homosexuality at all and find support for their arguments in the life of Muhammad. All of these interpretations are based on reading the exact same "literal word of God".

Yet, you are convinced that all Muslims agree on the exact same thing because the Quran is the word of God. I guess you will just have to ignore me once again.

I am convinced of no such thing, have never said that all Muslims agree on interpretation, and in fact I've said the exact opposite here (I've mentioned Manji and the Ahmadi guy for starters, in fact I even linked to him but you show no signs of having read it). Please stop putting words in my mouth.

Sorry for the caps, but it seems so necessary: I AM TALKING ABOUT DEGREES OF DIFFERENCE IN LATITUDE FOR SCRIPTURAL INTERPRETATION. Unlike you, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ABSOLUTES--I am NOT saying that either faith is monolithically literalist or, alternatively, that both are in relatively equal states of disagreement.

I AM SAYING that there's LESS disagreement in Islam, and MORE certainty about certain tenets, than in Christianity. I AM ALSO SAYING that there are a number of scriptural REASONS FOR THIS, some of which I and that first poster have spelled out, including the Quran claiming to be the word of God, actual statements on homosexuality in the Quran but not in the gospels, and (as PP pointed out) the Christian prohibition against taking justice into your own hands instead of leaving it to God.

Not that it matters. You'll ignore my latest attempts to move us off black and white, and you'll come right back with something about abortion clinic shootings, missing my point once again. As if Christian extremists have anything to do with Muslims anyway.

Over and out, I've had enough bullying for the day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The finger-pointing at Christians is simply a deflection. Two people were stabbed in Paris last night - Islamic terrorism.

FBI took the Orlando killer off the list a week before the attacks, because he started screaming racism. Sounds to me like the guy knew exactly how to play this administration.

Three people were shot in DC , on dead over the weekend - DC terror. Or, do we not care about local killings.

Two very different things, but it's as important to understand and be honest about the bases for the DC shootings -- drugs, poverty, family strife, easy access to handguns -- as it's important to understand and be honest about the bases for Muslim attacks. It serves no purpose to point to American Indian issues or to Christian issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Not that PP, but I think her point was that you can find stronger scriptural support in Islam than in Christianity. The Quran has several passages condemning homosexuality, and several passages of Hadith prescribe death for homosexuals. As you know, the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of God, and the Hadith are supposed to be reliable although there's debate about some of them.

You won't find any recorded sayings by Jesus on homosexuality, let alone calling for death for homosexuals. For condemnation of homosexuality in the New Testament you have to go to Paul's letters, and Paul does not call for death. In any case many mainstream Christians regard Paul's letters as pastoral, and very rooted in his own time and culture, and do not give them the universal and timeless weight they give to Jesus' sayings. For the death penalty, you have to look on the Old Testament--but PP is absolutely right that Jesus clearly and specifically denied and banned humans' ability to make judgements, particularly judgements involving death, that are God's to make. FWIW, I've had long debates on the religious forum with a fundie who opposes homosexuality. These are the reasons many Protestant churches find it OK to allow gay marriage and even gay pastors.

So, if you're a Christian or Muslim who is mentally ill (as I believe the Orlando shooter will be shown to be) or even sane, you can find scriptural support in the Quran for disapproval although not for killing homosexuals. Only fringe Christians think it's OK to kill homosexuals, also I didn't hear that Cruz freak show citing actual Bible passages.

Signed, a liberal who thinks we need to acknowledge these things

If you actually study what purports to be "scriptural support in Islam" for killing homosexuals, you will find that it is not as clear as you seem to believe and, in fact even relies upon the same Old Testament story of Sodom that homophobic Christians often cite. While the Quran is believed to be the word of God, the exact meaning of those words is heavily debated. God did not speak very plainly -- something of which anyone who attempts to read the Quran quickly becomes painfully aware.

Obviously, anyone seeking to find justification for killing gays can find it Islam, just as they can in Christianity. Indeed, here are examples of two Baptist preachers who praised the Orlando killings:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/roger-jimenez-steven-anderson-pastors-praise-orlando

"Are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?" Jimenez said in a sermon originally posted on YouTube. "Um no, I think that’s great! I think that helps society. I think Orlando, Florida is a little safer tonight."

Tempe, Arizona preacher Steven Anderson also rushed to praise the "good news" that “there are 50 less pedophiles in this world."

So, of course, most people will call these two preachers fringe elements. But, most Muslims will call ISIS a fringe group -- one that mostly targets other Muslims.

Signed, a liberal who thinks other liberals are often misinformed about Islam.

the Old Testament predates Jesus and Christianity altogether. Jesus said no more killings or stonings or judgments. there is no support in Christianity for reverting back to any Old Testament forms of judgement and punishment like stoning. And frankly, I dont even know if mosaic law itself said to kill homosexuals. i doubt it. you just cannot say with any logic that christianity supports that. it is nowhere in the entire new testament. it only says do not be homosexual, and do not judge or kill. that is it.

Christians use the Old Testament when it supports what they want. the Old Testament predates Jesus when Chistians used it for three hundred years to support slavery.

christians didnt exist before Jesus. hello.