What's the Point of Chasing Marriage and Kids, Really?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are absolutely certain you don't want children, go ahead and have a vasectomy, and be upfront about it when you date.

Uh, no. The point of dating is to get laid, not dissuade women from having sex with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are absolutely certain you don't want children, go ahead and have a vasectomy, and be upfront about it when you date.

Uh, no. The point of dating is to get laid, not dissuade women from having sex with you.

If a woman just wants to have sex, she won't care that you're infertile. In fact, it might be a relief.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are absolutely certain you don't want children, go ahead and have a vasectomy, and be upfront about it when you date.

Uh, no. The point of dating is to get laid, not dissuade women from having sex with you.

If a woman just wants to have sex, she won't care that you're infertile. In fact, it might be a relief.

Sidebar: What will help the OP get laid: Telling or not telling about the vasectomy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Honestly, these questions make you sound socially immature. If having kids would make the woman you love happy, wouldn't that also make you happy? Marriage, or long-term relationships without marriage, are a two-way street. It's not about you sacrificing/compromising to make someone else happy -- it's about both of you working together to build a life together. When (not if) the challenging times set in, you need to examine whether what you have built together is worth it -- not just whether the sacrifices you have made have been worth it.

I am here to disrespect no one, and I resent being disrespected when I have posed clearly logical questions that most PPs grasp in one reading. So please rethink your tone because you do come across as offensive.

I will add "socially immature" to the list of things I am accused of being. Considering it is a 'condition' typical in children, wouldn't you do better just saying 'childish' instead of displaying your level of intelligence? These are questions more men need to ask before they start having kids irresponsibly, and leaving women as single moms, so I make no apologies for being vulnerable to good public wisdom by asking 'childish' questions here.

If you are advising me to "...examine whether what [I] have built together [with my partner] is worth it..." after a child is brought into the world, then I am afraid you are setting me up to do more harm than good. This is why Family Planning was promoted.

Also, the last time I checked the key to any successful relationship is the ability to compromise to make your partner happy. In other words sacrificing and compromising IS one way of "...working together to build a life together..."

In any event, thanks for weighing in and I will take your views into consideration.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do appreciate the other comments from PPs who took the time. It seems the overwhelming advice is to stay true to myself and NOT chase parenting if it something I see as taking away more than what it adds to my life. I don't necessarily think a vasectomy is for me, although I have seriously considered. It still does not take away the need to be a parent, because I could still change my mind further on and adopt, or be a step-dad to my partner's child. So I don't limit parenting to just biologically parenting here, I mean the institution of parenting. So in dating I choose women who are not mothers and who have no intention of being, if she is seeing the relationship over the long-term. I am always fully honest and open, just in case some PPs think I am not and am some type of player.

Thanks again for your comments

OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Marriage isn't for some people. Marriage and children aren't for others. Internet strangers can really help you know if you belong to either of these groups. All we know is you were involved with someone who didn't want either when you did - or who did, when you didn't. It sounds like you're still feeling unhappy about what happened with your relationship.

Since you're asking for perspective and advice, here's mine. When people make men vs. women comments ("I can understand the sexes might be split on this"), that tends to indicate the interpersonal issue was affected at least in part by some sort of skewed thinking.

Thanks for weighing in. The good thing is that you are wrong. I am neither "unhappy" nor was there a relationship of such. The bad thing is that you still have not answered the questions from your personal experiences.

My questions are motivated by years of introspection, self-reflection, and now months of reading DCUM not directly related to my recent experiences. The 'dodged a bullet' tag was in reference to the unanimous opinion coming out of a recent thread I started (no point coloring this thread with the dye from that one, but suffice it to say I am the same OP at this point in my life where I am happy with me).

Skewed thinking is quite normal given our experience here in the Western world where ex-husbands and fathers consistently walk away from divorce proceedings poorer, while their former partners often benefit from what they never worked for, or more than if they had not divorced. In other words, Family Law in Western and more so American jurisprudence, is now skewed against men thanks to what happened 40-50 years ago with the rise of Radical Feminism particularly.

So with that clarification, how and when did you know that marriage and/or parenting are/aren't for you? Or are you ambivalent?


OP

Don't ever get married or have kids. This post proves why you shouldn't - narcissistic tendencies. Marriage is teamwork - not one vs. the other. All of your pseudo- intellectual talk ("western jurisprudence") won't cover for the fact that you can't envision a marriage of equals or teamwork and would devalue the contributions of a woman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Honestly, these questions make you sound socially immature. If having kids would make the woman you love happy, wouldn't that also make you happy? Marriage, or long-term relationships without marriage, are a two-way street. It's not about you sacrificing/compromising to make someone else happy -- it's about both of you working together to build a life together. When (not if) the challenging times set in, you need to examine whether what you have built together is worth it -- not just whether the sacrifices you have made have been worth it.

I am here to disrespect no one, and I resent being disrespected when I have posed clearly logical questions that most PPs grasp in one reading. So please rethink your tone because you do come across as offensive.

I will add "socially immature" to the list of things I am accused of being. Considering it is a 'condition' typical in children, wouldn't you do better just saying 'childish' instead of displaying your level of intelligence? These are questions more men need to ask before they start having kids irresponsibly, and leaving women as single moms, so I make no apologies for being vulnerable to good public wisdom by asking 'childish' questions here.

If you are advising me to "...examine whether what [I] have built together [with my partner] is worth it..." after a child is brought into the world, then I am afraid you are setting me up to do more harm than good. This is why Family Planning was promoted.

Also, the last time I checked the key to any successful relationship is the ability to compromise to make your partner happy. In other words sacrificing and compromising IS one way of "...working together to build a life together..."

In any event, thanks for weighing in and I will take your views into consideration.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do appreciate the other comments from PPs who took the time. It seems the overwhelming advice is to stay true to myself and NOT chase parenting if it something I see as taking away more than what it adds to my life. I don't necessarily think a vasectomy is for me, although I have seriously considered. It still does not take away the need to be a parent, because I could still change my mind further on and adopt, or be a step-dad to my partner's child. So I don't limit parenting to just biologically parenting here, I mean the institution of parenting. So in dating I choose women who are not mothers and who have no intention of being, if she is seeing the relationship over the long-term. I am always fully honest and open, just in case some PPs think I am not and am some type of player.

Thanks again for your comments

OP

Am I the only one who finds this OP to be pompous and insufferable?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Would love to hear from those who have been there and done that:

1. If you were a mid 30s guy, solid education and good career prospects, and don't really NEED marriage and kids to feel fulfilled, would you?

2. Are there many other guys out there like me?

3. Will I hit 40 or 50 and suddenly feel a void that it's too late to fill?

4. Is it FAIR to put myself up for this if I am NOT FEELING it, and would it be FAIR to a potential partner?

I can understand the sexes might be split on this, but I am so bewildered by all the negativity and stress juggling sex, marriage, kids and career, why bother given all the risks and potential drama involved?

Honest responses welcomed.


Signed by a heterosexual OP who recently 'dodged a bullet.'

This forum is not a representative sample of marriages. DCUM is filled with difficult people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Honestly, these questions make you sound socially immature. If having kids would make the woman you love happy, wouldn't that also make you happy? Marriage, or long-term relationships without marriage, are a two-way street. It's not about you sacrificing/compromising to make someone else happy -- it's about both of you working together to build a life together. When (not if) the challenging times set in, you need to examine whether what you have built together is worth it -- not just whether the sacrifices you have made have been worth it.

I am here to disrespect no one, and I resent being disrespected when I have posed clearly logical questions that most PPs grasp in one reading. So please rethink your tone because you do come across as offensive.

I will add "socially immature" to the list of things I am accused of being. Considering it is a 'condition' typical in children, wouldn't you do better just saying 'childish' instead of displaying your level of intelligence? These are questions more men need to ask before they start having kids irresponsibly, and leaving women as single moms, so I make no apologies for being vulnerable to good public wisdom by asking 'childish' questions here.

If you are advising me to "...examine whether what [I] have built together [with my partner] is worth it..." after a child is brought into the world, then I am afraid you are setting me up to do more harm than good. This is why Family Planning was promoted.

Also, the last time I checked the key to any successful relationship is the ability to compromise to make your partner happy. In other words sacrificing and compromising IS one way of "...working together to build a life together..."

In any event, thanks for weighing in and I will take your views into consideration.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do appreciate the other comments from PPs who took the time. It seems the overwhelming advice is to stay true to myself and NOT chase parenting if it something I see as taking away more than what it adds to my life. I don't necessarily think a vasectomy is for me, although I have seriously considered. It still does not take away the need to be a parent, because I could still change my mind further on and adopt, or be a step-dad to my partner's child. So I don't limit parenting to just biologically parenting here, I mean the institution of parenting. So in dating I choose women who are not mothers and who have no intention of being, if she is seeing the relationship over the long-term. I am always fully honest and open, just in case some PPs think I am not and am some type of player.

Thanks again for your comments

OP

Am I the only one who finds this OP to be pompous and insufferable?

God no. I'm a pp who advised him on this thread and the other fucked up one he started that he needs therapy for an odd lack of self-reflection.I can't put my finger on it exactly, but "pompous and insufferable" work! Re the bolded part: I mean, like we're going ot tell him NOT to stay true to himself? And then he summarizes all the advice. Something is just missing with this guy. It's like a kid who has social deficits and memorizes a script for what to say when meeting people. And it works unless he has to go off script. And then it's weird.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Marriage isn't for some people. Marriage and children aren't for others. Internet strangers can really help you know if you belong to either of these groups. All we know is you were involved with someone who didn't want either when you did - or who did, when you didn't. It sounds like you're still feeling unhappy about what happened with your relationship.

Since you're asking for perspective and advice, here's mine. When people make men vs. women comments ("I can understand the sexes might be split on this"), that tends to indicate the interpersonal issue was affected at least in part by some sort of skewed thinking.

Thanks for weighing in. The good thing is that you are wrong. I am neither "unhappy" nor was there a relationship of such. The bad thing is that you still have not answered the questions from your personal experiences.

My questions are motivated by years of introspection, self-reflection, and now months of reading DCUM not directly related to my recent experiences. The 'dodged a bullet' tag was in reference to the unanimous opinion coming out of a recent thread I started (no point coloring this thread with the dye from that one, but suffice it to say I am the same OP at this point in my life where I am happy with me).

Skewed thinking is quite normal given our experience here in the Western world where ex-husbands and fathers consistently walk away from divorce proceedings poorer, while their former partners often benefit from what they never worked for, or more than if they had not divorced. In other words, Family Law in Western and more so American jurisprudence, is now skewed against men thanks to what happened 40-50 years ago with the rise of Radical Feminism particularly.

So with that clarification, how and when did you know that marriage and/or parenting are/aren't for you? Or are you ambivalent?


OP

Don't ever get married or have kids. This post proves why you shouldn't - narcissistic tendencies. Marriage is teamwork - not one vs. the other. All of your pseudo- intellectual talk ("western jurisprudence") won't cover for the fact that you can't envision a marriage of equals or teamwork and would devalue the contributions of a woman.

+1

And OP has his facts wrong re: the financial impact of divorce. Statistically speaking, women and children lose out and their standard of living goes down, while that of men goes up post-divorce.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I do appreciate the other comments from PPs who took the time. It seems the overwhelming advice is to stay true to myself and NOT chase parenting if it something I see as taking away more than what it adds to my life. I don't necessarily think a vasectomy is for me, although I have seriously considered. It still does not take away the need to be a parent, because I could still change my mind further on and adopt, or be a step-dad to my partner's child. So I don't limit parenting to just biologically parenting here, I mean the institution of parenting. So in dating I choose women who are not mothers and who have no intention of being, if she is seeing the relationship over the long-term. I am always fully honest and open, just in case some PPs think I am not and am some type of player.

Thanks again for your comments

OP

It sounds to me like you're not willing to stand behind your choice not to have children. Losing the ability to father children takes away most scenarios with children - you'd have to actually date someone with a child to be a stepdad (which is up to you), and you'd have to decide to adopt. None of these choices can be sprung up on you as readily as pregnancy.

You are just really not sure whether you want children. You are NOT sure that you do not want children. If you were committed to the childless life, you'd get snipped already.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a 36 year old woman. I don't have kids and don't want kids. I'd like a long-term relationship but don't particularly care if it includes marriage or not. There may not be many of us, but we exist.

It seems like there are many people here making us out to be strange creatures walking around with emotional issues that would prevent intimacy.

I posed the question because I thought I was somehow setting myself up to miss out on the 'greener grass.' That's obviously not the case and so far it seems there are three types out there:

1. Those like you (potentially us) who can happily live without NEEDING to marry or have kids.

2. Those who think marriage and parenting are the gold standard for relationships and being family oriented, respectively; any deviation is a social mutation.

3. Those (like me) who are mentally and emotionally ambivalent; I don't NEED kids to feel complete/happy, but would only do it makes the woman I am in love with happy.

So number 3 highlights the 'trouble' because I am not sure if I will have regrets when the challenging times set in, or will suddenly want more after the first pregnancy. It is a very serious risk to take, so safe bet to avoid and say "not for me" altogether.

So for persons who have done parenting, did you do it because you/your relationship felt incomplete without it, or were you like number 3 going in?

That's my purpose for starting this thread, not to be told I am some social mutation because of my disposition.

Thanks.

I'm a 50 + woman. I never wanted to get married, really. I certainly never wanted children. I thought they were too much work, too much money, too much time. I didn't want to cut into my freedom and fun. But my husband really, really wanted them, so after more than 10 years of marriage we started trying to have a child.

It took awhile, but we did have a child in our 40s -- and he turned out to have a disability. So definitely time, money, and work. And our freedom and fun have been curtailed. That being said, it has still been probably the most moving and important experience in my life. It's a gift to actually have to put yourself second, think of others first, do things you normally wouldn't want to do. Our child is so fun, and funny, and kind. It would be so much of a lesser life never having known him.

I also truly enjoy being married. We really enjoy each other and have each other's backs. We are each other's cheerleaders. I also hated dating, so it's great not to have to keep starting over. That may be fun in your mid 30s, but it's a different story in your mid 50s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: This forum is not a representative sample of marriages. DCUM is filled with difficult people.

So I have come to realize....notwithstanding the few who do offer good perspectives without assuming ugly things about me.

I am now being called narcissistic by people who can't even cite the sampling procedure for the studies they are alluding to, that women and children fair worse financially after divorce; and persons who might have never sat a day in a course on the history of human civilizations or law, in order appreciate the differences throughout the evolution of Western civilization and jurisprudence over time, particularly since that historic event at Runnymede in 1215.

In other words, there are historical and philosophical bases to how marriage and family life have come to be today, and some persons would do well to know about that stuff before they label persons wrongly. I suppose asking honest opinions of people reveals those who live in a vacuum feeding of daytime TV, and those who have actually been intellectually exposed to different world cultures and know how to demarcate over time. To the former, if you are so quick to be aggressive towards other perspectives on marriage and family life, it perhaps just means that you don't know all there is to know and one trip to Wikipedia could open a world of wonders.

Once again, I am very grateful to all who have offered their advice without feeling the need to voice their opinions of me.


OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a 50 + woman. I never wanted to get married, really. I certainly never wanted children. I thought they were too much work, too much money, too much time. I didn't want to cut into my freedom and fun. But my husband really, really wanted them, so after more than 10 years of marriage we started trying to have a child.

It took awhile, but we did have a child in our 40s -- and he turned out to have a disability. So definitely time, money, and work. And our freedom and fun have been curtailed. That being said, it has still been probably the most moving and important experience in my life. It's a gift to actually have to put yourself second, think of others first, do things you normally wouldn't want to do. Our child is so fun, and funny, and kind. It would be so much of a lesser life never having known him.

I also truly enjoy being married. We really enjoy each other and have each other's backs. We are each other's cheerleaders. I also hated dating, so it's great not to have to keep starting over. That may be fun in your mid 30s, but it's a different story in your mid 50s.

Thanks. This is a very solid perspective.

OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do appreciate the other comments from PPs who took the time. It seems the overwhelming advice is to stay true to myself and NOT chase parenting if it something I see as taking away more than what it adds to my life. I don't necessarily think a vasectomy is for me, although I have seriously considered. It still does not take away the need to be a parent, because I could still change my mind further on and adopt, or be a step-dad to my partner's child. So I don't limit parenting to just biologically parenting here, I mean the institution of parenting. So in dating I choose women who are not mothers and who have no intention of being, if she is seeing the relationship over the long-term. I am always fully honest and open, just in case some PPs think I am not and am some type of player.

Thanks again for your comments

OP

It sounds to me like you're not willing to stand behind your choice not to have children. Losing the ability to father children takes away most scenarios with children - you'd have to actually date someone with a child to be a stepdad (which is up to you), and you'd have to decide to adopt. None of these choices can be sprung up on you as readily as pregnancy.

You are just really not sure whether you want children. You are NOT sure that you do not want children. If you were committed to the childless life, you'd get snipped already.

Isn't it kind of obvious that a committed person wouldn't seek opinions from anonymous strangers? Obviously, he is not sure, hence the questions. Nothing wrong with that.

[Anonymous]

Find a woman in her 30s or 40s that doesn't want kids. Lots of women in their 20s will lie (to themselves or partners) that they don't want kids, but by the time they are 30, most women won't waste time saying they don't want kids if they don't. Then you're more likely to not have to get married. Though I think you should clarify your thinking on that. It's not a bad thing to compromise on if it makes your partner happy and truly makes no difference to you.