S/O Why can’t moms just chill and be nice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a middle aged suburban mom who was relentlessly bullied in high school, I feel like I am reliving those horrific days again. I *hate* it, and I hate especially that it seems so much easier to be a dad: they don’t play these games and don’t care, so why do we?

Why can’t grown women just be cool and nice to each other? Real question.

Serious question, are most of these bullying women white? Just asking because they tend to be the bullies at work too. I think it’s because they don’t have control in their households. Their husband and kids probably walk all over them so they need an outlet. Obviously not all white women.

Not OP but I have known a handful of women like this and none of them lack control in their households. In fact it seems like the opposite is true. The women most likely to be cruel or manipulative in their social groups tend to be the obvious alpha in their families as well, with a spouse who does what he's told and kids who know not to cross her.

Agree. These types of woman almost always have meek husbands who do whatever they say. The kids are a mixed bag.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m always dubious when an adult claims they’ve been bullied by another adult. I’m sure it happens on rare occasions, but I tend to think the person claiming to have been bullied is just upset they haven’t been made to feel welcome by a social group.
The meaning of the word bully has been totally watered down as well as become shorthand for “not included”.

Let me help, because I think you just don't know what bullying is.

Bullying requires engagement. If someone just isn't inclusive of you or doesn't want to be your friend, that's not bullying. That's a person expressing a social preference. It can hurt, and it can even be done in a hurtful way, but it's not bullying. It's just rejection.

Bullies engage and use that engagement to harm. Usually bullies befriend (in order to learn about you and collect info) and THEN reject. This happened to me in a workplace once. When I started, these women were *so* friendly -- they'd invite me to lunch or to parties at their homes, they'd swing by my office to chat, etc. But then they started gossiping about me, using things I'd shared with them (not secrets but just details about my life that they only knew because they'd gone out of their way to befriend me) to talk a bunch of s**t about me. They continued to act friendly to my face and never said anything to indicate to me that they had an issue with me. So I heard about everything second hand from other colleagues. They stopped inviting me to things but then would discuss these events during work meetings or in the hallway outside my office so that I knew I hadn't been invited. They had this way of looking at me and then at each other -- they had clearly decided I wasn't good enough for them and were enjoying how their shared dislike of me made them more of a unit. I think they also liked the feeling of power that came from judging me and finding me wanting. It was affirming for them.

They could have just... not befriended me. I watched them do this with another woman who joined the office after me -- they'd come on really strong and adopt the new person and then turn on her. There was also someone else who joined and they befriended her but didn't turn on her. I guess they decided she was one of them. But this is not just social rejection. It is aggressive behavior and I don't know how to describe it other than to call it bullying. It's the adult version of Mean Girls, the same weird social aggression masked as friendship. It definitely happens.

PP you replied to here.

I know what bullying is. I don’t understand why your take away was that I don’t know what it is? I also acknowledged that it does happen to adults sometimes.

It sounds to me like you experienced actual bullying, and I’m sorry you had to deal with that, truly. That said, I still think many people “cry bully” when they’re actually just unhappy about a social situation, because it garners more sympathy. So, you know, I wasn’t talking about your situation, and no need for the tone, ok?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I want to note that OP didn't ask why moms can't just BE chill. She said "why can't moms just chill." So she's not referring to personality, but behavior. She's asking why moms can't just leave each other alone, instead of gossiping, criticizing, or judging one another.

And I just want to point out that this thread grew pretty fast and with a lot of contentious back and forth between, presumably, moms, with plenty of gossip, criticism and judgment, of each other and of other moms they know.

Can you imagine a similar thread for men, where a bunch of dads posted judging and criticizing each other? I think men as a group are kind of horrible but this is impossible for me to imagine. My husband would never be able to sustain actual interest in other dads to engage in something like this. He would give up and go watch a sporting event or play a video game or read a book. Sorry to throw out so many stereotypes about men but I'm describing my real husband who I guess is pretty stereotypical in this respect.

So it's a fair question. Why are we like this? How can we stop? Why are men able to just "do less" when it comes to male friendship or interacting with peers, and largely just not care enough about each other to sit around comparing and judging and criticizing and gaslighting each other?

Some men are like this. *I* think the difference is that other men, like your dh, can condidently suss out that personality quickly and have zero qualms bowing out or having minimal contact whereas women are more polite and excusing of bad behaviors until it hurts them personally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This site and talking with friends who left DC makes me wonder if it's really worse out there in the suburbs, especially those with "high performing" schools. Most families I've met in DCPS are pretty chill.

I live in an exurb with pretty average schools and I haven't really met mean girl types, so there might be something to this. I'm not best friends with any of the moms, and don't have a "mom crew" the way my husband has formed a "dad crew," but we are friendly enough. (It's ok! I just click better with other crowds.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I want to note that OP didn't ask why moms can't just BE chill. She said "why can't moms just chill." So she's not referring to personality, but behavior. She's asking why moms can't just leave each other alone, instead of gossiping, criticizing, or judging one another.

And I just want to point out that this thread grew pretty fast and with a lot of contentious back and forth between, presumably, moms, with plenty of gossip, criticism and judgment, of each other and of other moms they know.

Can you imagine a similar thread for men, where a bunch of dads posted judging and criticizing each other? I think men as a group are kind of horrible but this is impossible for me to imagine. My husband would never be able to sustain actual interest in other dads to engage in something like this. He would give up and go watch a sporting event or play a video game or read a book. Sorry to throw out so many stereotypes about men but I'm describing my real husband who I guess is pretty stereotypical in this respect.

So it's a fair question. Why are we like this? How can we stop? Why are men able to just "do less" when it comes to male friendship or interacting with peers, and largely just not care enough about each other to sit around comparing and judging and criticizing and gaslighting each other?

I dunno but I bet nobody on this thread has slept with or wanted to sleep with their nanny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I want to note that OP didn't ask why moms can't just BE chill. She said "why can't moms just chill." So she's not referring to personality, but behavior. She's asking why moms can't just leave each other alone, instead of gossiping, criticizing, or judging one another.

And I just want to point out that this thread grew pretty fast and with a lot of contentious back and forth between, presumably, moms, with plenty of gossip, criticism and judgment, of each other and of other moms they know.

Can you imagine a similar thread for men, where a bunch of dads posted judging and criticizing each other? I think men as a group are kind of horrible but this is impossible for me to imagine. My husband would never be able to sustain actual interest in other dads to engage in something like this. He would give up and go watch a sporting event or play a video game or read a book. Sorry to throw out so many stereotypes about men but I'm describing my real husband who I guess is pretty stereotypical in this respect.

So it's a fair question. Why are we like this? How can we stop? Why are men able to just "do less" when it comes to male friendship or interacting with peers, and largely just not care enough about each other to sit around comparing and judging and criticizing and gaslighting each other?

“We” are not like this. Women are no more prone to comparison, judgment, criticism, and gaslighting than men are. You believe this behavior is ubiquitous because you’ve bought into a misogynistic lie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone is nice. They just aren't.

If you have a pattern of being the victim of bullies, it might make sense to look into why. You might need to improve your social skills.

Wow.

The only time I went through this stuff as an adult was at a specific company where I worked. It was horrific. I didn't even get the worse of it, another woman did. But no. It was those people, in a setting which allowed and implicitly encouraged it.

I think social skills can help with kids and teens--I was both shy and anxious and bullied. But most of the actual bullying was between 7th and 9th grade. Later I was more just isolated (although I did stay active in extracurriculars, Girl Scouts, church youth activities, so I had kind of a life, and I made one good friend my last couple years of h.s.).



Don't make being bullied the fault of the people who are mistreated.

People love to punch down - as evidenced by this thread. I’d be willing to bet that a lot of these posters insisting bullying doesn’t happen and is just a mental production of people who are insecure/paranoid are themselves bullies.

I read those posts and wish they would get a taste of this behavior they are so in denial of. Then I remember, for most of my life I would have also been dismissive of those comments. I think beyond not experiencing it, I wanted to feel like we were collectively above that lowly behavior. Then I experienced it so maybe it was something karmic and with maturity, I am not so doubting of the dilemmas and complaints of other people's experiences. Maybe I didnt want it to be true but I was fooling myself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to note that OP didn't ask why moms can't just BE chill. She said "why can't moms just chill." So she's not referring to personality, but behavior. She's asking why moms can't just leave each other alone, instead of gossiping, criticizing, or judging one another.

And I just want to point out that this thread grew pretty fast and with a lot of contentious back and forth between, presumably, moms, with plenty of gossip, criticism and judgment, of each other and of other moms they know.

Can you imagine a similar thread for men, where a bunch of dads posted judging and criticizing each other? I think men as a group are kind of horrible but this is impossible for me to imagine. My husband would never be able to sustain actual interest in other dads to engage in something like this. He would give up and go watch a sporting event or play a video game or read a book. Sorry to throw out so many stereotypes about men but I'm describing my real husband who I guess is pretty stereotypical in this respect.

So it's a fair question. Why are we like this? How can we stop? Why are men able to just "do less" when it comes to male friendship or interacting with peers, and largely just not care enough about each other to sit around comparing and judging and criticizing and gaslighting each other?

“We” are not like this. Women are no more prone to comparison, judgment, criticism, and gaslighting than men are. You believe this behavior is ubiquitous because you’ve bought into a misogynistic lie.

I think women are more prone to compare, judge, criticize, and gaslight *each other* than men are. Men do all that stuff too, but they are more likely to do it to women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This site and talking with friends who left DC makes me wonder if it's really worse out there in the suburbs, especially those with "high performing" schools. Most families I've met in DCPS are pretty chill.

Same- the DCPS families we have met have been amazing. There are a few bad eggs who are insufferable and/or mean, but they either move to the burbs or break off for private somewhere around 4th-6th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone is nice. They just aren't.

If you have a pattern of being the victim of bullies, it might make sense to look into why. You might need to improve your social skills.

Wow.

The only time I went through this stuff as an adult was at a specific company where I worked. It was horrific. I didn't even get the worse of it, another woman did. But no. It was those people, in a setting which allowed and implicitly encouraged it.

I think social skills can help with kids and teens--I was both shy and anxious and bullied. But most of the actual bullying was between 7th and 9th grade. Later I was more just isolated (although I did stay active in extracurriculars, Girl Scouts, church youth activities, so I had kind of a life, and I made one good friend my last couple years of h.s.).



Don't make being bullied the fault of the people who are mistreated.

People love to punch down - as evidenced by this thread. I’d be willing to bet that a lot of these posters insisting bullying doesn’t happen and is just a mental production of people who are insecure/paranoid are themselves bullies.

I read those posts and wish they would get a taste of this behavior they are so in denial of. Then I remember, for most of my life I would have also been dismissive of those comments. I think beyond not experiencing it, I wanted to feel like we were collectively above that lowly behavior. Then I experienced it so maybe it was something karmic and with maturity, I am not so doubting of the dilemmas and complaints of other people's experiences. Maybe I didnt want it to be true but I was fooling myself.

No one is denying that some women do this some of the time. We are saying that this behavior isn’t unique to women and it isn’t universal or even particularly commonplace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone is nice. They just aren't.

If you have a pattern of being the victim of bullies, it might make sense to look into why. You might need to improve your social skills.

Wow.

The only time I went through this stuff as an adult was at a specific company where I worked. It was horrific. I didn't even get the worse of it, another woman did. But no. It was those people, in a setting which allowed and implicitly encouraged it.

I think social skills can help with kids and teens--I was both shy and anxious and bullied. But most of the actual bullying was between 7th and 9th grade. Later I was more just isolated (although I did stay active in extracurriculars, Girl Scouts, church youth activities, so I had kind of a life, and I made one good friend my last couple years of h.s.).



Don't make being bullied the fault of the people who are mistreated.

People love to punch down - as evidenced by this thread. I’d be willing to bet that a lot of these posters insisting bullying doesn’t happen and is just a mental production of people who are insecure/paranoid are themselves bullies.

I read those posts and wish they would get a taste of this behavior they are so in denial of. Then I remember, for most of my life I would have also been dismissive of those comments. I think beyond not experiencing it, I wanted to feel like we were collectively above that lowly behavior. Then I experienced it so maybe it was something karmic and with maturity, I am not so doubting of the dilemmas and complaints of other people's experiences. Maybe I didnt want it to be true but I was fooling myself.

No one is denying that some women do this some of the time. We are saying that this behavior isn’t unique to women and it isn’t universal or even particularly commonplace.

And yet these threads pop up on here quite frequently and always get tons of traction. Perhaps it is more common than you realize.

Also it's unclear to me why it has to be universal or even commonplace to be problematic or worth talking about? There are lots of interpersonal issues I've never experienced myself and that I know are fare from universal, but if someone told me they had experienced it, my reaction would be to empathize. Like I've never had a stalker and none of my exes would ever do that. But if a friend told me she was being stalked by an ex, I'd listen to her and care about her situation. And if she said something like "why do men do this?" I wouldn't jump in to #notallmen her, because it's already implied. Of course all men don't stalk ex girlfriends. Of course not all women are judgmental and mean. But some are, and it sucks, and it seems worthwhile to discuss it when there are several women on this thread alone who have experienced something similar to OP. Who are you to tell them their experience wasn't what they thought it was?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone is nice. They just aren't.

If you have a pattern of being the victim of bullies, it might make sense to look into why. You might need to improve your social skills.

Wow.

The only time I went through this stuff as an adult was at a specific company where I worked. It was horrific. I didn't even get the worse of it, another woman did. But no. It was those people, in a setting which allowed and implicitly encouraged it.

I think social skills can help with kids and teens--I was both shy and anxious and bullied. But most of the actual bullying was between 7th and 9th grade. Later I was more just isolated (although I did stay active in extracurriculars, Girl Scouts, church youth activities, so I had kind of a life, and I made one good friend my last couple years of h.s.).



Don't make being bullied the fault of the people who are mistreated.

People love to punch down - as evidenced by this thread. I’d be willing to bet that a lot of these posters insisting bullying doesn’t happen and is just a mental production of people who are insecure/paranoid are themselves bullies.

I read those posts and wish they would get a taste of this behavior they are so in denial of. Then I remember, for most of my life I would have also been dismissive of those comments. I think beyond not experiencing it, I wanted to feel like we were collectively above that lowly behavior. Then I experienced it so maybe it was something karmic and with maturity, I am not so doubting of the dilemmas and complaints of other people's experiences. Maybe I didnt want it to be true but I was fooling myself.

I relate to this. I like to think I wouldn't have been dismissive in the same way before, but I think it's entirely possible I was or would have been. I definitely didn't think that adult woman could be bullying and exclusive before. And then I experienced something very similar to OP and even had the same thought -- I couldn't believe these dynamics were part of my life in my 30s, when the last time I'd experienced anything remotely similar had been middle school. IYKYK.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone is nice. They just aren't.

If you have a pattern of being the victim of bullies, it might make sense to look into why. You might need to improve your social skills.

Wow.

The only time I went through this stuff as an adult was at a specific company where I worked. It was horrific. I didn't even get the worse of it, another woman did. But no. It was those people, in a setting which allowed and implicitly encouraged it.

I think social skills can help with kids and teens--I was both shy and anxious and bullied. But most of the actual bullying was between 7th and 9th grade. Later I was more just isolated (although I did stay active in extracurriculars, Girl Scouts, church youth activities, so I had kind of a life, and I made one good friend my last couple years of h.s.).



Don't make being bullied the fault of the people who are mistreated.

People love to punch down - as evidenced by this thread. I’d be willing to bet that a lot of these posters insisting bullying doesn’t happen and is just a mental production of people who are insecure/paranoid are themselves bullies.

I read those posts and wish they would get a taste of this behavior they are so in denial of. Then I remember, for most of my life I would have also been dismissive of those comments. I think beyond not experiencing it, I wanted to feel like we were collectively above that lowly behavior. Then I experienced it so maybe it was something karmic and with maturity, I am not so doubting of the dilemmas and complaints of other people's experiences. Maybe I didnt want it to be true but I was fooling myself.

No one is denying that some women do this some of the time. We are saying that this behavior isn’t unique to women and it isn’t universal or even particularly commonplace.

And yet these threads pop up on here quite frequently and always get tons of traction. Perhaps it is more common than you realize.

Also it's unclear to me why it has to be universal or even commonplace to be problematic or worth talking about? There are lots of interpersonal issues I've never experienced myself and that I know are fare from universal, but if someone told me they had experienced it, my reaction would be to empathize. Like I've never had a stalker and none of my exes would ever do that. But if a friend told me she was being stalked by an ex, I'd listen to her and care about her situation. And if she said something like "why do men do this?" I wouldn't jump in to #notallmen her, because it's already implied. Of course all men don't stalk ex girlfriends. Of course not all women are judgmental and mean. But some are, and it sucks, and it seems worthwhile to discuss it when there are several women on this thread alone who have experienced something similar to OP. Who are you to tell them their experience wasn't what they thought it was?

That’s quite a straw man. No one is saying that this topic of off-limits. But I suggest you reread the comments in this thread because quite a few characterize this behavior as typical for women. At least a few imply or state explicitly something along the lines of “this is how women are.” THAT is what I’m objecting to.

Bullying is wrong and the behavior that OP describes is crappy. She is entitled to discuss this in an open forum. But I wont accept the lie that this kind of behavior is common for women or that female relationships are always/often characterized by this kind of passive aggression.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone is nice. They just aren't.

If you have a pattern of being the victim of bullies, it might make sense to look into why. You might need to improve your social skills.

Wow.

The only time I went through this stuff as an adult was at a specific company where I worked. It was horrific. I didn't even get the worse of it, another woman did. But no. It was those people, in a setting which allowed and implicitly encouraged it.

I think social skills can help with kids and teens--I was both shy and anxious and bullied. But most of the actual bullying was between 7th and 9th grade. Later I was more just isolated (although I did stay active in extracurriculars, Girl Scouts, church youth activities, so I had kind of a life, and I made one good friend my last couple years of h.s.).



Don't make being bullied the fault of the people who are mistreated.

People love to punch down - as evidenced by this thread. I’d be willing to bet that a lot of these posters insisting bullying doesn’t happen and is just a mental production of people who are insecure/paranoid are themselves bullies.

I read those posts and wish they would get a taste of this behavior they are so in denial of. Then I remember, for most of my life I would have also been dismissive of those comments. I think beyond not experiencing it, I wanted to feel like we were collectively above that lowly behavior. Then I experienced it so maybe it was something karmic and with maturity, I am not so doubting of the dilemmas and complaints of other people's experiences. Maybe I didnt want it to be true but I was fooling myself.

No one is denying that some women do this some of the time. We are saying that this behavior isn’t unique to women and it isn’t universal or even particularly commonplace.

And yet these threads pop up on here quite frequently and always get tons of traction. Perhaps it is more common than you realize.

Also it's unclear to me why it has to be universal or even commonplace to be problematic or worth talking about? There are lots of interpersonal issues I've never experienced myself and that I know are fare from universal, but if someone told me they had experienced it, my reaction would be to empathize. Like I've never had a stalker and none of my exes would ever do that. But if a friend told me she was being stalked by an ex, I'd listen to her and care about her situation. And if she said something like "why do men do this?" I wouldn't jump in to #notallmen her, because it's already implied. Of course all men don't stalk ex girlfriends. Of course not all women are judgmental and mean. But some are, and it sucks, and it seems worthwhile to discuss it when there are several women on this thread alone who have experienced something similar to OP. Who are you to tell them their experience wasn't what they thought it was?

Is it? Because a lot of the comments here are saying the opposite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everyone is nice. They just aren't.

If you have a pattern of being the victim of bullies, it might make sense to look into why. You might need to improve your social skills.

Wow.

The only time I went through this stuff as an adult was at a specific company where I worked. It was horrific. I didn't even get the worse of it, another woman did. But no. It was those people, in a setting which allowed and implicitly encouraged it.

I think social skills can help with kids and teens--I was both shy and anxious and bullied. But most of the actual bullying was between 7th and 9th grade. Later I was more just isolated (although I did stay active in extracurriculars, Girl Scouts, church youth activities, so I had kind of a life, and I made one good friend my last couple years of h.s.).



Don't make being bullied the fault of the people who are mistreated.

People love to punch down - as evidenced by this thread. I’d be willing to bet that a lot of these posters insisting bullying doesn’t happen and is just a mental production of people who are insecure/paranoid are themselves bullies.

I read those posts and wish they would get a taste of this behavior they are so in denial of. Then I remember, for most of my life I would have also been dismissive of those comments. I think beyond not experiencing it, I wanted to feel like we were collectively above that lowly behavior. Then I experienced it so maybe it was something karmic and with maturity, I am not so doubting of the dilemmas and complaints of other people's experiences. Maybe I didnt want it to be true but I was fooling myself.

No one is denying that some women do this some of the time. We are saying that this behavior isn’t unique to women and it isn’t universal or even particularly commonplace.

And yet these threads pop up on here quite frequently and always get tons of traction. Perhaps it is more common than you realize.

Also it's unclear to me why it has to be universal or even commonplace to be problematic or worth talking about? There are lots of interpersonal issues I've never experienced myself and that I know are fare from universal, but if someone told me they had experienced it, my reaction would be to empathize. Like I've never had a stalker and none of my exes would ever do that. But if a friend told me she was being stalked by an ex, I'd listen to her and care about her situation. And if she said something like "why do men do this?" I wouldn't jump in to #notallmen her, because it's already implied. Of course all men don't stalk ex girlfriends. Of course not all women are judgmental and mean. But some are, and it sucks, and it seems worthwhile to discuss it when there are several women on this thread alone who have experienced something similar to OP. Who are you to tell them their experience wasn't what they thought it was?

That’s quite a straw man. No one is saying that this topic of off-limits. But I suggest you reread the comments in this thread because quite a few characterize this behavior as typical for women. At least a few imply or state explicitly something along the lines of “this is how women are.” THAT is what I’m objecting to.

Bullying is wrong and the behavior that OP describes is crappy. She is entitled to discuss this in an open forum. But I wont accept the lie that this kind of behavior is common for women or that female relationships are always/often characterized by this kind of passive aggression.

Then reply to those posts and say that. No one in the posts above that you are replying said "this is how women are." I and another poster were saying it's not okay to blame bullying victims for being bullied, by suggesting they could have prevented it by working on their social skills. We weren't talking about women at all, or making broad generalizations about what they are like. Just stating that yes, this kind of bullying happens, and when it does, it is the fault of the bullies. Not the person on the receiving end. I have no idea why you are arguing with us if your actual beef is with someone else in the thread.