Is this an American mom thing or specific to my kids school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm from the UK and I've found that one real barrier to making friends here (or rather to having deeper friendships) has been this one - what seems to be cultural - difference around sharing parenting challenges. In the UK it's tacitly understood for the most part that if you share something that's hard about parenting, unless you specifically ask, you're not looking for advice but more so solidarity or to laugh about it or just to share and feel less alone or incompetent. Among the moms at my kids school I find almost universally that if i share something that's hard, they give me advice. For me personally it's a real barrier to friendships bc a. I often don't need or want advice per se and b. it sort of stops any kind of bonding or even really conversation in its tracks.
Is this an american cultural thing where if someone shares something hard it's assumed they want input or is my school different in some way? would love to find a tribe that I can laugh about my kids imitating youtubers rather than hear a 15 minute diatribe on how someone else is crushing it with not letting this happen.

Over here, you are asking for advice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently saw a friend who moved to the UK some years ago, and we discussed cultural differences. She said one thing that sticks out to her is Brits will complain about things or express dissatisfaction with something, but do nothing about it. Americans do see everything as a problem to be solved.

I think this is a cultural difference but disagree with your description because I think British people also solve problems all the time. It's not like British people are just falling apart unable to function -- they are as functional as Americans are on average. And there are plenty of Americans who struggle to solve problems in their own lives.

The distinction is about how people approach social interactions. I just think Americans will sometimes bring an almost professional problem-solving approach to social interactions whereas Brits (and people in many cultures) consider this rude and impersonal. Like I have no problem being a problem solver at work or at home but if I'm just chatting with someone outside the school or bump into a mom friend at the grocery store I don't have that mindset and we can complain or commiserate and it doesn't have to be results-oriented. Especially because a lot of the stuff we might commiserate on is not really a problem to be solved. A lot of parenting is just necessary drudgery and you can't fix that -- it's part of the deal.

I think many Americans refuse to accept this though -- the idea that some aspects of life just kind of suck and you have to put up with them or muddle through and there are no "hacks" or short cuts.

Also it seems like many American parents actually make parenting *harder* with all their "problem-solving." Often they invent problems that weren't there or impose impossible parameters on aspects of parenting that were a little hard but manageable. Like I actually think it's more productive to just complain a bit about how kids can sometimes be picky eaters and that's annoying and then move on. Like I'll say "ugh my kid asked for mac and cheese for dinner and then I made it and they wouldn't eat it so irritating" and the response will be "oh what you really need to do is be serving her more lentils -- did you know the nutritional content of mac and cheese is basically nil why don't you make all your bread products from scratch." Like that's not actually helpful.

That has not been my experience. If you said the thing about mac and cheese I would have not said anything about making lentils. I would have said yes that's frustrating.

I find your anaysis of American parents rather simplistic and wrong.

I only give 'advice' to other people I am close too. If you are an acquaintaince there is no reason to delve deeper on mac and cheese. That isn't even a problem!

So the op seeks closeness but Americans seek sharing information with close friends. By shutting us down you won't get the tribe you seek.

So OP's problem I guess is that she doesn't already have close friends in the US. OP just go back in time and develop close friendships with the other moms earlier so you would already be friends with them and then you wouldn't find their advice giving annoying. I guess.

Great advice. Totally fixed it.

Ah yes, sarcasm totally answers the question and solves all problems! I was explaining that for some Americans giving advice was a bonding experience. If she shuts it down than she is shutting down more intimacy.

Op does not have to 'go back in time' to make friends. The next time someone gives advice instead of shutting it down she could say 'I will try it or thanks for the suggestions' Then when the parent says they have a problem op can offer some advice.

I did notice pp that you didn't offer any advice only critical comments. If you find my suggestions so lame maybe try and give advice yourself? Or is this the best you can do?

I think the issue with the bolded is that often in communities that are status-conscious and socially competitive the people doling out advice will never admit they have a problem. You will never be in a position to help them or know more than them.

This has been my experience in a community similar to what OP describes (public school but similarly competitive environment with a lot of people quick to tell you what you need to do or how you're doing something wrong even if you are just making a joke or cheerfully complaining about being tired). I was very good natured about all of this for about a year figuring that exactly what you described would happen -- I'd be gracious about receiving their advice and stay friendly and then eventually they'd let down their guard with me and I could return the favor.

The guard never came down. I'm not dying to give anyone parenting advice but I've noticed no one here will ever admit to struggling with anything or having any problems related to their kids. At all. You also are not allowed to complain about anything school related unless it's one of a handful of things that people (not me) have agreed are the things you're allowed to complain about. And the weird thing for me is that those aren't even things that bother me. Like one of the things you're allowed to complain about is the traffic near the school and the parking and drop-off situation in the morning. But it honestly doesn't seem that bad to me. A little chaotic at times but I've never felt unsafe. Yet when people complain about this I'll nod along and say "yeah it's not great" or "agreed they should develop a better system" or whatever because this is obviously very important to people.

But if you complain about something not on this short list then your complaining is not welcome.

It's a very weird environment. At this point my kid is halfway through and I'm starting to just look forward to no longer being an elementary parent. I'm sure middle school and high school will have their own issues but it seems like there is less forced socializing with other parents at the school once the kids are a bit more independent and I look forward to that.

Oh yes, I remember that about our DCPS! Certain things one was allowed to complain about. Other things you were NOT and would get side-texts or emails if you mentioned them on the listserv.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm from the UK and I've found that one real barrier to making friends here (or rather to having deeper friendships) has been this one - what seems to be cultural - difference around sharing parenting challenges. In the UK it's tacitly understood for the most part that if you share something that's hard about parenting, unless you specifically ask, you're not looking for advice but more so solidarity or to laugh about it or just to share and feel less alone or incompetent. Among the moms at my kids school I find almost universally that if i share something that's hard, they give me advice. For me personally it's a real barrier to friendships bc a. I often don't need or want advice per se and b. it sort of stops any kind of bonding or even really conversation in its tracks.
Is this an american cultural thing where if someone shares something hard it's assumed they want input or is my school different in some way? would love to find a tribe that I can laugh about my kids imitating youtubers rather than hear a 15 minute diatribe on how someone else is crushing it with not letting this happen.

Over here, you are asking for advice.

Well yes that is the distinction, isn't it? If someone asks for insight or advice it will be welcome. If they merely say "kids, amiright?" your parenting advice will not be welcome as they were just trying to commiserate or start conversation or make a joke or find an area of overlap.

Some of us understand this and others think it's cool to give people they barely know parenting advice all the time and that if it's not welcome we'll tough $hit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s a DC thing where many of us have wonky policy backgrounds and see parenting as a series of problems to be solved. I think you just have to keep trying and find your people. I have one mom friend who I enjoy because we have the same perspective on schools - we’re both kind if tiger-parenty, which is VERY frowned upon in our neighborhood (apparently you’re supposed to go straight from “play based” schools to your child being naturally “advanced,” with no effort). I have another mom friend who shares my take on the nature of tween boys. But a lot of mom friends in between where I would never broach any parenting subject at all, because I don’t know what’s a hot issue with them.

Another cultural aspect is that Americans don’t always understand “taking the piss” … especially about kids! That’s my form of humor personally (maybe thanks to Grandma from Dover?) but a lot of Americans don’t get it. If I heard you complain about your youtuber kids I would get it! But there are a lot of, erm, humor impaired people around here.

op - haha you get it!
yes i find if i ever do the british thing of being honest (eg saying that some of my kids art is terrible and deserves to go in the bin immediately) I get a lot of raised eyebrows.

I got so much flack the other day for laughing about my kid’s aspirations for the NBA. I don’t laugh at him, but I don’t think this is plausible, they acted like I was insulting him and the worst mom.

op - yes i get this a lot. I CANNOT live in a world where i pretend that my child's terrible school play was good. there are many wonderful things about my child; minor as well as major challenges overcome, kindness bestowed, resilience shown, hilarity presented. But not everything is great - many things are not! I am not good at lying about those but i have def shocked some parents here for this reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm from the UK and I've found that one real barrier to making friends here (or rather to having deeper friendships) has been this one - what seems to be cultural - difference around sharing parenting challenges. In the UK it's tacitly understood for the most part that if you share something that's hard about parenting, unless you specifically ask, you're not looking for advice but more so solidarity or to laugh about it or just to share and feel less alone or incompetent. Among the moms at my kids school I find almost universally that if i share something that's hard, they give me advice. For me personally it's a real barrier to friendships bc a. I often don't need or want advice per se and b. it sort of stops any kind of bonding or even really conversation in its tracks.
Is this an american cultural thing where if someone shares something hard it's assumed they want input or is my school different in some way? would love to find a tribe that I can laugh about my kids imitating youtubers rather than hear a 15 minute diatribe on how someone else is crushing it with not letting this happen.

Over here, you are asking for advice.

right! advice is great and welcome when solicited.

[Anonymous]

Haven’t read everything, but in my experience British culture is a lot more accepting of negative emotionality (and much less accepting of positivity or anything that seems of bragging). I do think there’s a degree to which it is just social awkwardness of misfiring, but I think there’s a cultural component as well.

[Anonymous]

We didn’t ask for your cracker head advice

[Anonymous]

Aussie here and I commiserate. There can be big cultural differences. Over the years, I have drifted back to mixing a lot with other Aussies, Brits and Kiwis as we simply 'get each other' a lot more and share a sense of humour. That said, I also have good American friends. You just have to find the right people which is always challenging when you move countries and are starting from scratch.

My kids have always been in private schools here but they can have pretty broad communities so it's a matter of finding the people you like. That can take a bit of time and it also depends on the school. It is definitely easier when they are younger as there is more expectation and need for parental involvement. However, in the younger years, I also feel like many people take themselves and their children's 'achievements' super seriously. I think that vibe is fairly obvious so it is easy to figure out those aren't your people. For what it's worth, I think people often mellow a bit when their kids get older. Parenting teens can be quite humbling.

It is worth thinking about whether you modify how you interact a bit with people you don't know well yet. If you had moved to a country with a very different culture and another language, you would be conscious of this and possibly do it automatically. There can be quite a lot of culture shock when you move to another English-speaking country which you don't expect. Common language, different culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s a DC thing where many of us have wonky policy backgrounds and see parenting as a series of problems to be solved. I think you just have to keep trying and find your people. I have one mom friend who I enjoy because we have the same perspective on schools - we’re both kind if tiger-parenty, which is VERY frowned upon in our neighborhood (apparently you’re supposed to go straight from “play based” schools to your child being naturally “advanced,” with no effort). I have another mom friend who shares my take on the nature of tween boys. But a lot of mom friends in between where I would never broach any parenting subject at all, because I don’t know what’s a hot issue with them.

Another cultural aspect is that Americans don’t always understand “taking the piss” … especially about kids! That’s my form of humor personally (maybe thanks to Grandma from Dover?) but a lot of Americans don’t get it. If I heard you complain about your youtuber kids I would get it! But there are a lot of, erm, humor impaired people around here.

op - haha you get it!
yes i find if i ever do the british thing of being honest (eg saying that some of my kids art is terrible and deserves to go in the bin immediately) I get a lot of raised eyebrows.

For me, it feels like a cultural difference. I was taught not to complain, so when I hear someone complaining, I assume that is their way of asking for advice. For what it’s worth, my kid has been in private and public and I have no problem making friends with moms from other countries. British, Canadian, and Japanese. The Japanese mom mentioned that she felt very “othered” by the other moms - like they treated her differently. This area is tough and can be really cliquey. You will find your people if you keep putting yourself out there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Haven’t read everything, but in my experience British culture is a lot more accepting of negative emotionality (and much less accepting of positivity or anything that seems of bragging). I do think there’s a degree to which it is just social awkwardness of misfiring, but I think there’s a cultural component as well.

op - it's so interesting you say that because i have zero tolerance for bragging and struggle with how much it happens here. I've actually talked about this in therapy because I find it so triggering and it wasn't really an issue back in the UK because it's much less socially common (it obviously does happen but it's not as endemic). I do encounter people here of course who have a lot of humility despite having things to brag about, especially among people with really high social eq, but it's wild to me how many people straight up show off or tolerate this behavior. It's to me so antisocial and alienating and I'm unclear how you would forge a friendship with a person who wants you to experience a negative emotion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Aussie here and I commiserate. There can be big cultural differences. Over the years, I have drifted back to mixing a lot with other Aussies, Brits and Kiwis as we simply 'get each other' a lot more and share a sense of humour. That said, I also have good American friends. You just have to find the right people which is always challenging when you move countries and are starting from scratch.

My kids have always been in private schools here but they can have pretty broad communities so it's a matter of finding the people you like. That can take a bit of time and it also depends on the school. It is definitely easier when they are younger as there is more expectation and need for parental involvement. However, in the younger years, I also feel like many people take themselves and their children's 'achievements' super seriously. I think that vibe is fairly obvious so it is easy to figure out those aren't your people. For what it's worth, I think people often mellow a bit when their kids get older. Parenting teens can be quite humbling.

It is worth thinking about whether you modify how you interact a bit with people you don't know well yet. If you had moved to a country with a very different culture and another language, you would be conscious of this and possibly do it automatically. There can be quite a lot of culture shock when you move to another English-speaking country which you don't expect. Common language, different culture.

op - I actually tend to find that it's a lot easier with the men/ dads (though would be super weird if I were friends with a dad from school vs a mom).
The dads have generally more of a sense of humor about their kids and parenting and not so much of a earnestness. And MUCH higher comfort level with admitting imperfection in themselves.

[Anonymous]

It also depends on delivery OP... maybe you're too serious when you talk about the parenting stuff. Think of light hearted things to discuss like how you pack your kids lunch and they don't eat any of it or something like that. I have received unsolicited advice more from some of my foreign neighbors. I married into a very different culture and some of the women give me advice about how to be more like the typical wife from husbands country. I ignore their advice and do what I want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Haven’t read everything, but in my experience British culture is a lot more accepting of negative emotionality (and much less accepting of positivity or anything that seems of bragging). I do think there’s a degree to which it is just social awkwardness of misfiring, but I think there’s a cultural component as well.

op - it's so interesting you say that because i have zero tolerance for bragging and struggle with how much it happens here. I've actually talked about this in therapy because I find it so triggering and it wasn't really an issue back in the UK because it's much less socially common (it obviously does happen but it's not as endemic). I do encounter people here of course who have a lot of humility despite having things to brag about, especially among people with really high social eq, but it's wild to me how many people straight up show off or tolerate this behavior. It's to me so antisocial and alienating and I'm unclear how you would forge a friendship with a person who wants you to experience a negative emotion.

Interesting. What kind of bragging?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Haven’t read everything, but in my experience British culture is a lot more accepting of negative emotionality (and much less accepting of positivity or anything that seems of bragging). I do think there’s a degree to which it is just social awkwardness of misfiring, but I think there’s a cultural component as well.

op - it's so interesting you say that because i have zero tolerance for bragging and struggle with how much it happens here. I've actually talked about this in therapy because I find it so triggering and it wasn't really an issue back in the UK because it's much less socially common (it obviously does happen but it's not as endemic). I do encounter people here of course who have a lot of humility despite having things to brag about, especially among people with really high social eq, but it's wild to me how many people straight up show off or tolerate this behavior. It's to me so antisocial and alienating and I'm unclear how you would forge a friendship with a person who wants you to experience a negative emotion.

NP and this resonates with me, OP. I was raised in the U.S. but in a time and geographical place where bragging would have you proverbially cast off the island. Now I’ve got my kid at a school with a huge mix of people of all different backgrounds and there seems to be a consensus that bragging is ok.

DH and I get so embarrassed by it and for the first few years we were trying to make eye contact with others to see if anyone else was squirming. We’ve found a few like-minded people but for the most part, casual conversations at school revolve around high school admissions, swim team workout group move-ups, expensive house renovations, the cost of one resort vs. another, academic accomplishments, etc.

Our casual self-deprecating comments about our child (which I thought was normal parenting- I can’t imagine bragging about my kid) gave them a reputation for being not-smart and unathletic, because people took it in earnest.

Now I just shut up, say hi to 1-2 trusted people at events, and count down to school ending.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I recently saw a friend who moved to the UK some years ago, and we discussed cultural differences. She said one thing that sticks out to her is Brits will complain about things or express dissatisfaction with something, but do nothing about it. Americans do see everything as a problem to be solved.

I think this is a cultural difference but disagree with your description because I think British people also solve problems all the time. It's not like British people are just falling apart unable to function -- they are as functional as Americans are on average. And there are plenty of Americans who struggle to solve problems in their own lives.

The distinction is about how people approach social interactions. I just think Americans will sometimes bring an almost professional problem-solving approach to social interactions whereas Brits (and people in many cultures) consider this rude and impersonal. Like I have no problem being a problem solver at work or at home but if I'm just chatting with someone outside the school or bump into a mom friend at the grocery store I don't have that mindset and we can complain or commiserate and it doesn't have to be results-oriented. Especially because a lot of the stuff we might commiserate on is not really a problem to be solved. A lot of parenting is just necessary drudgery and you can't fix that -- it's part of the deal.

I think many Americans refuse to accept this though -- the idea that some aspects of life just kind of suck and you have to put up with them or muddle through and there are no "hacks" or short cuts.

Also it seems like many American parents actually make parenting *harder* with all their "problem-solving." Often they invent problems that weren't there or impose impossible parameters on aspects of parenting that were a little hard but manageable. Like I actually think it's more productive to just complain a bit about how kids can sometimes be picky eaters and that's annoying and then move on. Like I'll say "ugh my kid asked for mac and cheese for dinner and then I made it and they wouldn't eat it so irritating" and the response will be "oh what you really need to do is be serving her more lentils -- did you know the nutritional content of mac and cheese is basically nil why don't you make all your bread products from scratch." Like that's not actually helpful.

I agree with this and think it’s not tied to nationality or even cultural expectations. It’s primarily gendered and class-based. So many women in my community (UMC public in NYC) get their jollies from relational aggression especially in the perimenopausal years, and a facially acceptable way they engage in this is by offering constant unsolicited advice to other moms. It’s not cute, and it’s not subtle, and their own lives and kids are highly imperfect but boy can they run their mouths about everyone else.