Asked to be a witness in a custody dispute involving my son's kindergarten friend

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would not get involved here.

Surely there is someone else the dad can ask, who he knows better. You barely know them. If somehow he doesn’t have better witnesses to ask- ones he has known for longer- what does that tell you? Family friends, relatives? Neighbors? Babysitters or childcare providers? Maybe it says nothing. But seems strange enough to me that I would want no part of this. For all you know, he has been on his extra super-best dad behavior around you on purpose- for this reason. Easy to fool someone new, who he has only been around a few times. JMO.

Oh, stop.
You clearly know nothing about how these proceedings work, and it shows.

They're not asking for an analysis of the child/parent relationship, they're asking ONLY questions that are relevant to the witness and these questions are about as emotionally charged as writing out a grocery list, lol.

DP, not the poster to whom you're responding, but -- that's exactly why I wouldn't get involved. In OP's shoes, not knowing the guy other than "does he pick up and drop off on time" and other "grocery list questions," I would still say no. There is no way for OP to know if giving the guy even that much help is a good thing or a bad thing in the end. If it were someone I knew well enough that I wanted to ensure he was clearly seen as a solid, reliable parent? Yeah, I'd testify. But a relative stranger, when I don't know what kind of parent he is beyond those pickups and dropoffs etc.? Nope, I wouldn't do it. All the reliable logistical interactions in the world don't tell you if the person's a decent parent when he's alone with his kid.

Except unless you know the person extremely well, you don’t know if they are abusive or unfit. All you know is the outward facts: the children are well groomed and fed, parent was active in their lives, etc.

I guess I am in the minority but I have no problem testifying about things I have actually seen. It’s the judge’s job to put it in context. Unless I really felt I was being manipulated, I would testify.

I have a friend right now likely to go through a custody hearing. The father is a jerk but also a competent parent in other respects. So I assume I will be testifying to what I have actually seen, some of which is in his favor. I’m fine with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks so much, everybody, for your amazingly helpful thoughts. Yes, I need to bow out. I agree I probably shouldn't have been asked and placed in this awkward position.

I also feel a bit gross because what if the playdates that he recently initiated were opportunistically motivated?

I don't know. I feel bad for parents going through these things. Geez, they can get ugly.

I remember watching a family’s divorce in elementary school.

The dad traveled a ton and then out of the blue after radio silence Pk-2 started emailing back and texting groups of parents or teachers. Like suddenly he woke up and needed to pretend to know what was going on. Cheery messages gushing shallow thanks to teachers or parents. Asking for long playdates on the weekend out.

It was short lived. Just happened during the separation. Then went back to radio silence.

Funny, this is EXACTLY what my DH did during our separation. "Like suddenly he woke up and needed to pretend to know what was going on." He even starting using exclamation marks and thanking everyone, his messages sounded so off.

Mine too. Also with weird exclamation points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you should say ok unless you happen to ge super good friends with the mom and it would sever that friendship

Fwiw DD started at a new school in 4th and I met a new mom and heard some awful stuff about the dad. There was a protective order for a while etc. I formed an opinion ahead of time. Then I met the Dad and he’s great with his kid, super social with other parents, brings the kid to parties if it’s his weekend etc. I don’t k is the true story so I just do my best to get on with both of them.

Lady you never know what transpired in private. Many are good at masking. My ex could put on a father of the year show but he hit me and my kid repeatedly and screams insane abuse behind closed doors.

Reality is that can be true of anyone. You don't even know what your best friends or siblings do behaind closed doors. They could be evil incarnate to their spouses or their kids. You don't know if any mom or dad you know is abusive or controlling or mean or has an anger problem or drinks too much etc. You actually don't know anyone fully given you aren't with them all the time. All we can do is work with the information we have.

And many people are fine when around others. My SIL has a serious anger management issue and can be very cruel and mean to my brother and to her kids. But she is bubbly and fun and charming when others are around so any of her kids friends are perfectly fine coming to their house, she would never rage at them. Her friends all know her as a fun and outgoing and happy person - they never see her other side but she is still a good friend to them. Abusive in one setting often doesn't translate across settings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you should say ok unless you happen to ge super good friends with the mom and it would sever that friendship

Fwiw DD started at a new school in 4th and I met a new mom and heard some awful stuff about the dad. There was a protective order for a while etc. I formed an opinion ahead of time. Then I met the Dad and he’s great with his kid, super social with other parents, brings the kid to parties if it’s his weekend etc. I don’t k is the true story so I just do my best to get on with both of them.

Lady you never know what transpired in private. Many are good at masking. My ex could put on a father of the year show but he hit me and my kid repeatedly and screams insane abuse behind closed doors.

Reality is that can be true of anyone. You don't even know what your best friends or siblings do behaind closed doors. They could be evil incarnate to their spouses or their kids. You don't know if any mom or dad you know is abusive or controlling or mean or has an anger problem or drinks too much etc. You actually don't know anyone fully given you aren't with them all the time. All we can do is work with the information we have.

And many people are fine when around others. My SIL has a serious anger management issue and can be very cruel and mean to my brother and to her kids. But she is bubbly and fun and charming when others are around so any of her kids friends are perfectly fine coming to their house, she would never rage at them. Her friends all know her as a fun and outgoing and happy person - they never see her other side but she is still a good friend to them. Abusive in one setting often doesn't translate across settings.

I agree. I only have one friend who I think I can actually fully understand their parenting and that is because we have spent a ton of time together with kids in many different scenarios. On the other hand, a single substantiated instance of severe abuse can tell you all you need to know. But it’s not that common to witness something so clear cut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you should say ok unless you happen to ge super good friends with the mom and it would sever that friendship

Fwiw DD started at a new school in 4th and I met a new mom and heard some awful stuff about the dad. There was a protective order for a while etc. I formed an opinion ahead of time. Then I met the Dad and he’s great with his kid, super social with other parents, brings the kid to parties if it’s his weekend etc. I don’t k is the true story so I just do my best to get on with both of them.

Lady you never know what transpired in private. Many are good at masking. My ex could put on a father of the year show but he hit me and my kid repeatedly and screams insane abuse behind closed doors.

+1

So much this. Mine was an abusive alcoholic - screaming tantrums ranting and raving ,punched holes in the wall, threw plates and dishes around, took a large canvas picture off the wall and broke it over his knee while screaming nonsense, swore at and verbally abused our kids (when our son would cry, would tell him to stop being such a pathetic little p*ssy and so much more), drove drunk with the kids in the car. And so very much more- I could go on and on. He was careful to hide it very well and was very charming and social- you never in a million years would’ve guessed what was happening behind closed doors. Successful professional career too. Is a dentist and did procedures on patients on while still drunk from the night before, which I didn’t realize until later on. Never got caught, his patients love him. Serious stuff.

Be careful what you assume.

+1000
My ex is is a physician, and a horrible person and parent. I won't go into the awful details. Not to mention he has been fired repeatedly. He is a total fraud, but careful to hide it all behind a fake charming mask. He would be described as "super social with the other parents, brings the kid to parties if it's his weekend, etc". People have NO idea. He works overtime to "love bomb" the parents of classmates. It has eventually backfired with some families because they sensed something was off (the moms end up bringing it up to me), but many people fall for it. It is incredibly hard to watch, but there's nothing I can do, obviously. Someone like the OP above, with that type of narrow thinking, would be easy prey for my ex.

As for the OP of this thread, it is a huge red flag that the dad has asked someone he doesn't know to be a character witness. Frankly, that speaks volumes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you should say ok unless you happen to ge super good friends with the mom and it would sever that friendship

Fwiw DD started at a new school in 4th and I met a new mom and heard some awful stuff about the dad. There was a protective order for a while etc. I formed an opinion ahead of time. Then I met the Dad and he’s great with his kid, super social with other parents, brings the kid to parties if it’s his weekend etc. I don’t k is the true story so I just do my best to get on with both of them.

Lady you never know what transpired in private. Many are good at masking. My ex could put on a father of the year show but he hit me and my kid repeatedly and screams insane abuse behind closed doors.

I’m the poster you responded too. I totally agree with you about putting on a fake face, but, if he was that abusive I doubt the child would want to be with him. You can see the love between the 2 of them when they’re together.

DP
That does not mean anything. My DH is seriously verbally and emotionally abusive, he has screamed at me in front of the kids and even tried to put a false assault charge on me. However since he is aware divorce is a possibility he has gone out of his way to bribe the kids with unending screen time, sweets, and gifts. I am the bad guy with the rules. They just adore him.

Again, be very careful what you assume. Unless you have experience with people with personality disorders you have no idea what you’re seeing in public.

THIS. Absolutely. And the other post upthread about PP loving the abusive dad as a kid and also stopping him from killing mom.
Also, my situation is similar. Children want love and approval from their parents, even when a parent is abusive. This is a tale as old as time.

OP above, you have no idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks so much, everybody, for your amazingly helpful thoughts. Yes, I need to bow out. I agree I probably shouldn't have been asked and placed in this awkward position.

I also feel a bit gross because what if the playdates that he recently initiated were opportunistically motivated?

I don't know. I feel bad for parents going through these things. Geez, they can get ugly.

I remember watching a family’s divorce in elementary school.

The dad traveled a ton and then out of the blue after radio silence Pk-2 started emailing back and texting groups of parents or teachers. Like suddenly he woke up and needed to pretend to know what was going on. Cheery messages gushing shallow thanks to teachers or parents. Asking for long playdates on the weekend out.

It was short lived. Just happened during the separation. Then went back to radio silence.

Funny, this is EXACTLY what my DH did during our separation. "Like suddenly he woke up and needed to pretend to know what was going on." He even starting using exclamation marks and thanking everyone, his messages sounded so off.

Mine too. Also with weird exclamation points.

What’s that about? I believe my DH may have some kind of personality disorder, possibly borderline or narcissism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks so much, everybody, for your amazingly helpful thoughts. Yes, I need to bow out. I agree I probably shouldn't have been asked and placed in this awkward position.

I also feel a bit gross because what if the playdates that he recently initiated were opportunistically motivated?

I don't know. I feel bad for parents going through these things. Geez, they can get ugly.

I remember watching a family’s divorce in elementary school.

The dad traveled a ton and then out of the blue after radio silence Pk-2 started emailing back and texting groups of parents or teachers. Like suddenly he woke up and needed to pretend to know what was going on. Cheery messages gushing shallow thanks to teachers or parents. Asking for long playdates on the weekend out.

It was short lived. Just happened during the separation. Then went back to radio silence.

Funny, this is EXACTLY what my DH did during our separation. "Like suddenly he woke up and needed to pretend to know what was going on." He even starting using exclamation marks and thanking everyone, his messages sounded so off.

Mine too. Also with weird exclamation points.

What’s that about? I believe my DH may have some kind of personality disorder, possibly borderline or narcissism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would not get involved here.

Surely there is someone else the dad can ask, who he knows better. You barely know them. If somehow he doesn’t have better witnesses to ask- ones he has known for longer- what does that tell you? Family friends, relatives? Neighbors? Babysitters or childcare providers? Maybe it says nothing. But seems strange enough to me that I would want no part of this. For all you know, he has been on his extra super-best dad behavior around you on purpose- for this reason. Easy to fool someone new, who he has only been around a few times. JMO.

Oh, stop.
You clearly know nothing about how these proceedings work, and it shows.

They're not asking for an analysis of the child/parent relationship, they're asking ONLY questions that are relevant to the witness and these questions are about as emotionally charged as writing out a grocery list, lol.

DP, not the poster to whom you're responding, but -- that's exactly why I wouldn't get involved. In OP's shoes, not knowing the guy other than "does he pick up and drop off on time" and other "grocery list questions," I would still say no. There is no way for OP to know if giving the guy even that much help is a good thing or a bad thing in the end. If it were someone I knew well enough that I wanted to ensure he was clearly seen as a solid, reliable parent? Yeah, I'd testify. But a relative stranger, when I don't know what kind of parent he is beyond those pickups and dropoffs etc.? Nope, I wouldn't do it. All the reliable logistical interactions in the world don't tell you if the person's a decent parent when he's alone with his kid.

Except unless you know the person extremely well, you don’t know if they are abusive or unfit. All you know is the outward facts: the children are well groomed and fed, parent was active in their lives, etc.

I guess I am in the minority but I have no problem testifying about things I have actually seen. It’s the judge’s job to put it in context. Unless I really felt I was being manipulated, I would testify.

I have a friend right now likely to go through a custody hearing. The father is a jerk but also a competent parent in other respects. So I assume I will be testifying to what I have actually seen, some of which is in his favor. I’m fine with that.

I was well groomed and fed and my parents were active in my life. I was also physically, verbally and emotionally abused. I genuinely thought everyone was afraid of their parents and cringed walking past them bracing to get hit. I thought everyone dealt with it.