Diversity and "Equity" are each other's enemies... discuss

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP doesn’t understand the definition. Equity doesn’t mean equality. Here is a graphic I use to explain this to 12 year olds. Hope it helps!

https://www.diffen.com/difference/Equality-vs-Equity

This graphic is a cancer

+1. Equity means every getting what they need. But current attempts at “equity” hold the advanced kids back to make the gap appear smaller. I have no problem with kids who need extra aides, supports, pullouts, etc. But stop eliminating honors/AP/enrichment activities for other kids. And yes this is happening at our school right before our eyes, all in the name of “equity.”

This argument falls apart when you look at why the kid is advanced and consider limited resources.

Your kid is most likely more “advanced” because of a disproportional distribution of limited resources from the the start of his or her life. They are advanced because they had more *advantages* than other children. Not because they are necessarily brighter or smarter. Your kid was born on third and you think he hit a triple. And so long as the system continues to set up these inequities in perpetuity, things won’t get better for the kid who keeps striking out.

This is always the argument, but underneath all of your privilege arguments is the biological reality that not everyone has the same academic potential. I'm sorry, they just don't. So, our job is to maximize performance and development for each child within their abilities. A child born to a drug addicted mother, who has eaten junk food his entire life, etc. typically has both genetic and environmental handicaps that will limit his performance, regardless of the effort made by society to counteract those handicaps.

And honestly, if a society has limited resources, it is better for the group as a whole to focus resources on the ones who might innovate or create jobs for those less capable. Everyone is better off then.

100%. High School should be job school for at least 1/3 of the students attending like they do in Germany. That won't happen because its highly correlated to race and people would scream there are too many BIPOC kids in these classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot on DCUM (who have generational wealth and are into all the wordsmith theory going on nowadays) don't realize that the old system did work to raise people up from the bottom if you had a strong support system.

I grew up lower middle class. My parents (yes, I had an involved father) instilled in me a hard work ethic and stressed that only through education would I make more money than them. I didn't have tutors, but I was in honors, ignored all the others trying to get me to skip school in high school, got good grades and now am part of the upper 10%. My children have had an easier start than I did.

If there isn't familial support, the equity steps taken won't matter except on paper by bringing people like my children down.

You were privileged to grow up in a 2-parent household.

For some races, 69% of kids are born to unwed mothers:
https://www.childtrends.org/publications/dramatic-increase-in-percentage-of-births-outside-marriage-among-whites-hispanics-and-women-with-higher-education-levels

Yes, and the vast majority of those women made choices that resulted in that situation. And they then make choices that make that situation permanent. But unless you support the state taking those kids and putting them in foster care, the mothers have made choices that will impact their children's entire lives, despite the best efforts of schools. BTW - the statistic showing children in single parent homes by race exactly mirrors academic performance by race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot on DCUM (who have generational wealth and are into all the wordsmith theory going on nowadays) don't realize that the old system did work to raise people up from the bottom if you had a strong support system.

I grew up lower middle class. My parents (yes, I had an involved father) instilled in me a hard work ethic and stressed that only through education would I make more money than them. I didn't have tutors, but I was in honors, ignored all the others trying to get me to skip school in high school, got good grades and now am part of the upper 10%. My children have had an easier start than I did.

If there isn't familial support, the equity steps taken won't matter except on paper by bringing people like my children down.

You were privileged to grow up in a 2-parent household.

For some races, 69% of kids are born to unwed mothers:
https://www.childtrends.org/publications/dramatic-increase-in-percentage-of-births-outside-marriage-among-whites-hispanics-and-women-with-higher-education-levels

That’s the consequence of poor decision making.

The child has no say in that.

Yep it’s unfortunate. But punishing my kid for the sins of their parents doesn’t fix that problem. Bottom line is that schools can’t fix shitty parents.

Single parent \= “shitty parent”

Especially considering the parent who is the “single parent” is the one who stepped up to the plate.

Agreed, but one of the two parents probably is.

That’s not to say that divorced/unwed parents can’t successfully raise a child to not need equitable measures. It for sure happens.

This. One of the parent is the shitty parent. This is especially true in the poor black communities where many fathers are incarcerated. Those that are not, many abandon their responsibilities to their kid and could care less. I have a good friend in this situation but she is lucky because she has support from her family and they are helping to raise him. These kids have no strong father figures at all.

The single moms with no support are working to support the family so no one is at home watching the kids. They then get into trouble, hang out with the wrong crowd, etc….

The other issue is that some households with 2 parents, they just don’t give a sh’t about the kids and are just unfit to be parents. Ask a teacher in a title 1 school about that and they can easily tell you the percentages and you would be surprised.

Those kids are getting in trouble because police and school administrators are racist. It's not their fault. If you look at arrest and incarceration rates, black males are way overrepresented.

So they are being framed?

NP. There are multiple components to the systemic racism that leads to higher incarceration rates.

Redlining
Lack of generational wealth
Untreated learning disabilities
Harsher consequences at school
Lack of knowledge about education/college
Bias in hiring
Bias in arrests
Harsher sentencing

It’s pretty easy for a kid to make a few mistakes when they are young and then never be able to pull themselves out of that hole.

Where is the personal responsibility?

Generational wealth - shitty parents, a whole bunch of them but realistically, there are tons of normal everyday middle class Americans of all colors without generational wealth.
Untreated learning disabilities - shitty parents
Lack of knowledge about college - shitty parents
Bias in arrests, sentencing - don’t care, stop committing crimes. This isn’t rocket science
Bias in hiring - racist quota systems set up in many institutions now. But remaining bias may also exist because all of the above is true.

So how does removing advanced math/tracking fix any of that? The kids who have bad parents and/or learning disabilities will still get as good an education as the school system is capable of giving. Systemic discrimination of kids with greater learning capabilities seems like a stupid answer to problems created by perceived systemic racism.

That’s not happening.

But go ahead and pretend like systemic racism isn’t happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disagree. The first step is understanding the racism built into our systems and worldview.

Diversity values all people and cultures, even though the system favors some. Equity seeks to redress imbalances based on those systemic biases. Focusing on equity naturally increases and fosters diversity.

This is a problem right here. Most of us want to understand assertions of "racism built into our systems and worldview." But there are rarely any specific examples given. Instead of pointing out specific examples of racism in systems that can be worked on, the argument is made that unequal outcomes must indicate racism. Well, anyone with intelligence and a bit of honesty will say that there are lots of rational reasons for differences in outcomes that are not due to racism.

So, we don't fix real problems because all we do is vaguely point to "systemic racism." And frankly, I think more racism is being created by the so-called "anti-racism" efforts.

It’s not that vague if you are actually listening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot on DCUM (who have generational wealth and are into all the wordsmith theory going on nowadays) don't realize that the old system did work to raise people up from the bottom if you had a strong support system.

I grew up lower middle class. My parents (yes, I had an involved father) instilled in me a hard work ethic and stressed that only through education would I make more money than them. I didn't have tutors, but I was in honors, ignored all the others trying to get me to skip school in high school, got good grades and now am part of the upper 10%. My children have had an easier start than I did.

If there isn't familial support, the equity steps taken won't matter except on paper by bringing people like my children down.

You were privileged to grow up in a 2-parent household.

For some races, 69% of kids are born to unwed mothers:
https://www.childtrends.org/publications/dramatic-increase-in-percentage-of-births-outside-marriage-among-whites-hispanics-and-women-with-higher-education-levels

That’s the consequence of poor decision making.

The child has no say in that.

Yep it’s unfortunate. But punishing my kid for the sins of their parents doesn’t fix that problem. Bottom line is that schools can’t fix shitty parents.

Single parent \= “shitty parent”

Especially considering the parent who is the “single parent” is the one who stepped up to the plate.

Agreed, but one of the two parents probably is.

That’s not to say that divorced/unwed parents can’t successfully raise a child to not need equitable measures. It for sure happens.

This. One of the parent is the shitty parent. This is especially true in the poor black communities where many fathers are incarcerated. Those that are not, many abandon their responsibilities to their kid and could care less. I have a good friend in this situation but she is lucky because she has support from her family and they are helping to raise him. These kids have no strong father figures at all.

The single moms with no support are working to support the family so no one is at home watching the kids. They then get into trouble, hang out with the wrong crowd, etc….

The other issue is that some households with 2 parents, they just don’t give a sh’t about the kids and are just unfit to be parents. Ask a teacher in a title 1 school about that and they can easily tell you the percentages and you would be surprised.

Those kids are getting in trouble because police and school administrators are racist. It's not their fault. If you look at arrest and incarceration rates, black males are way overrepresented.

So they are being framed?

NP. There are multiple components to the systemic racism that leads to higher incarceration rates.

Redlining
Lack of generational wealth
Untreated learning disabilities
Harsher consequences at school
Lack of knowledge about education/college
Bias in hiring
Bias in arrests
Harsher sentencing

It’s pretty easy for a kid to make a few mistakes when they are young and then never be able to pull themselves out of that hole.

Where is the personal responsibility?

Generational wealth - shitty parents, a whole bunch of them but realistically, there are tons of normal everyday middle class Americans of all colors without generational wealth.
Untreated learning disabilities - shitty parents
Lack of knowledge about college - shitty parents
Bias in arrests, sentencing - don’t care, stop committing crimes. This isn’t rocket science
Bias in hiring - racist quota systems set up in many institutions now. But remaining bias may also exist because all of the above is true.

So how does removing advanced math/tracking fix any of that? The kids who have bad parents and/or learning disabilities will still get as good an education as the school system is capable of giving. Systemic discrimination of kids with greater learning capabilities seems like a stupid answer to problems created by perceived systemic racism.

That’s not happening.

But go ahead and pretend like systemic racism isn’t happening.

It is with ELA if not with math.

By the way, systemic racism isn't something that actively or consciously ccurs. It is something that is inherently and subconsciously present. Perhaps eliminating honors ELA is counter productive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot on DCUM (who have generational wealth and are into all the wordsmith theory going on nowadays) don't realize that the old system did work to raise people up from the bottom if you had a strong support system.

I grew up lower middle class. My parents (yes, I had an involved father) instilled in me a hard work ethic and stressed that only through education would I make more money than them. I didn't have tutors, but I was in honors, ignored all the others trying to get me to skip school in high school, got good grades and now am part of the upper 10%. My children have had an easier start than I did.

If there isn't familial support, the equity steps taken won't matter except on paper by bringing people like my children down.

You were privileged to grow up in a 2-parent household.

For some races, 69% of kids are born to unwed mothers:
https://www.childtrends.org/publications/dramatic-increase-in-percentage-of-births-outside-marriage-among-whites-hispanics-and-women-with-higher-education-levels

That’s the consequence of poor decision making.

The child has no say in that.

Yep it’s unfortunate. But punishing my kid for the sins of their parents doesn’t fix that problem. Bottom line is that schools can’t fix shitty parents.

Single parent \= “shitty parent”

Especially considering the parent who is the “single parent” is the one who stepped up to the plate.

Agreed, but one of the two parents probably is.

That’s not to say that divorced/unwed parents can’t successfully raise a child to not need equitable measures. It for sure happens.

This. One of the parent is the shitty parent. This is especially true in the poor black communities where many fathers are incarcerated. Those that are not, many abandon their responsibilities to their kid and could care less. I have a good friend in this situation but she is lucky because she has support from her family and they are helping to raise him. These kids have no strong father figures at all.

The single moms with no support are working to support the family so no one is at home watching the kids. They then get into trouble, hang out with the wrong crowd, etc….

The other issue is that some households with 2 parents, they just don’t give a sh’t about the kids and are just unfit to be parents. Ask a teacher in a title 1 school about that and they can easily tell you the percentages and you would be surprised.

Those kids are getting in trouble because police and school administrators are racist. It's not their fault. If you look at arrest and incarceration rates, black males are way overrepresented.

So they are being framed?

NP. There are multiple components to the systemic racism that leads to higher incarceration rates.

Redlining
Lack of generational wealth
Untreated learning disabilities
Harsher consequences at school
Lack of knowledge about education/college
Bias in hiring
Bias in arrests
Harsher sentencing

It’s pretty easy for a kid to make a few mistakes when they are young and then never be able to pull themselves out of that hole.

Where is the personal responsibility?

Generational wealth - shitty parents, a whole bunch of them but realistically, there are tons of normal everyday middle class Americans of all colors without generational wealth.
Untreated learning disabilities - shitty parents
Lack of knowledge about college - shitty parents
Bias in arrests, sentencing - don’t care, stop committing crimes. This isn’t rocket science
Bias in hiring - racist quota systems set up in many institutions now. But remaining bias may also exist because all of the above is true.

So how does removing advanced math/tracking fix any of that? The kids who have bad parents and/or learning disabilities will still get as good an education as the school system is capable of giving. Systemic discrimination of kids with greater learning capabilities seems like a stupid answer to problems created by perceived systemic racism.

That’s not happening.

But go ahead and pretend like systemic racism isn’t happening.

VMPI was all just a dream. thankfully. But the original point of the exchange was that bad parents create bad outcomes, regardless of race. That includes leaving a child to be raised by one parent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot on DCUM (who have generational wealth and are into all the wordsmith theory going on nowadays) don't realize that the old system did work to raise people up from the bottom if you had a strong support system.

I grew up lower middle class. My parents (yes, I had an involved father) instilled in me a hard work ethic and stressed that only through education would I make more money than them. I didn't have tutors, but I was in honors, ignored all the others trying to get me to skip school in high school, got good grades and now am part of the upper 10%. My children have had an easier start than I did.

If there isn't familial support, the equity steps taken won't matter except on paper by bringing people like my children down.

You were privileged to grow up in a 2-parent household.

For some races, 69% of kids are born to unwed mothers:
https://www.childtrends.org/publications/dramatic-increase-in-percentage-of-births-outside-marriage-among-whites-hispanics-and-women-with-higher-education-levels

Yes, and the vast majority of those women made choices that resulted in that situation. And they then make choices that make that situation permanent. But unless you support the state taking those kids and putting them in foster care, the mothers have made choices that will impact their children's entire lives, despite the best efforts of schools. BTW - the statistic showing children in single parent homes by race exactly mirrors academic performance by race.

+1. Poor choices have consequences, especially if it involves having a child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot on DCUM (who have generational wealth and are into all the wordsmith theory going on nowadays) don't realize that the old system did work to raise people up from the bottom if you had a strong support system.

I grew up lower middle class. My parents (yes, I had an involved father) instilled in me a hard work ethic and stressed that only through education would I make more money than them. I didn't have tutors, but I was in honors, ignored all the others trying to get me to skip school in high school, got good grades and now am part of the upper 10%. My children have had an easier start than I did.

If there isn't familial support, the equity steps taken won't matter except on paper by bringing people like my children down.

You were privileged to grow up in a 2-parent household.

For some races, 69% of kids are born to unwed mothers:
https://www.childtrends.org/publications/dramatic-increase-in-percentage-of-births-outside-marriage-among-whites-hispanics-and-women-with-higher-education-levels

Yes, and the vast majority of those women made choices that resulted in that situation. And they then make choices that make that situation permanent. But unless you support the state taking those kids and putting them in foster care, the mothers have made choices that will impact their children's entire lives, despite the best efforts of schools. BTW - the statistic showing children in single parent homes by race exactly mirrors academic performance by race.

+1. Poor choices have consequences, especially if it involves having a child.

Funny how the woman is always blamed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot on DCUM (who have generational wealth and are into all the wordsmith theory going on nowadays) don't realize that the old system did work to raise people up from the bottom if you had a strong support system.

I grew up lower middle class. My parents (yes, I had an involved father) instilled in me a hard work ethic and stressed that only through education would I make more money than them. I didn't have tutors, but I was in honors, ignored all the others trying to get me to skip school in high school, got good grades and now am part of the upper 10%. My children have had an easier start than I did.

If there isn't familial support, the equity steps taken won't matter except on paper by bringing people like my children down.

You were privileged to grow up in a 2-parent household.

For some races, 69% of kids are born to unwed mothers:
https://www.childtrends.org/publications/dramatic-increase-in-percentage-of-births-outside-marriage-among-whites-hispanics-and-women-with-higher-education-levels

Yes, and the vast majority of those women made choices that resulted in that situation. And they then make choices that make that situation permanent. But unless you support the state taking those kids and putting them in foster care, the mothers have made choices that will impact their children's entire lives, despite the best efforts of schools. BTW - the statistic showing children in single parent homes by race exactly mirrors academic performance by race.

+1. Poor choices have consequences, especially if it involves having a child.

Funny how the woman is always blamed.

It takes 2 to tangle yes but you can’t deny all these teenage single mothers who then drop out of school. Or women who have multiple children all with different fathers of which none are around.

Don’t have sex or use birth control, don’t have a kid until you are done with school. Don’t have a kid until you can at least support yourself and have some savings. Don’t have a kid unless you have a partner who also wants to have a child and you are sure will stick around to help raise that child.

Above are all poor choices and are very prevalent choices in some communities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot on DCUM (who have generational wealth and are into all the wordsmith theory going on nowadays) don't realize that the old system did work to raise people up from the bottom if you had a strong support system.

I grew up lower middle class. My parents (yes, I had an involved father) instilled in me a hard work ethic and stressed that only through education would I make more money than them. I didn't have tutors, but I was in honors, ignored all the others trying to get me to skip school in high school, got good grades and now am part of the upper 10%. My children have had an easier start than I did.

If there isn't familial support, the equity steps taken won't matter except on paper by bringing people like my children down.

You were privileged to grow up in a 2-parent household.

For some races, 69% of kids are born to unwed mothers:
https://www.childtrends.org/publications/dramatic-increase-in-percentage-of-births-outside-marriage-among-whites-hispanics-and-women-with-higher-education-levels

Yes, and the vast majority of those women made choices that resulted in that situation. And they then make choices that make that situation permanent. But unless you support the state taking those kids and putting them in foster care, the mothers have made choices that will impact their children's entire lives, despite the best efforts of schools. BTW - the statistic showing children in single parent homes by race exactly mirrors academic performance by race.

+1. Poor choices have consequences, especially if it involves having a child.

Funny how the woman is always blamed.

It takes 2 to tangle yes but you can’t deny all these teenage single mothers who then drop out of school. Or women who have multiple children all with different fathers of which none are around.

Don’t have sex or use birth control, don’t have a kid until you are done with school. Don’t have a kid until you can at least support yourself and have some savings. Don’t have a kid unless you have a partner who also wants to have a child and you are sure will stick around to help raise that child.

Above are all poor choices and are very prevalent choices in some communities.

Meant if you don’t do above then you are making poor choices…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot on DCUM (who have generational wealth and are into all the wordsmith theory going on nowadays) don't realize that the old system did work to raise people up from the bottom if you had a strong support system.

I grew up lower middle class. My parents (yes, I had an involved father) instilled in me a hard work ethic and stressed that only through education would I make more money than them. I didn't have tutors, but I was in honors, ignored all the others trying to get me to skip school in high school, got good grades and now am part of the upper 10%. My children have had an easier start than I did.

If there isn't familial support, the equity steps taken won't matter except on paper by bringing people like my children down.

You were privileged to grow up in a 2-parent household.

For some races, 69% of kids are born to unwed mothers:
https://www.childtrends.org/publications/dramatic-increase-in-percentage-of-births-outside-marriage-among-whites-hispanics-and-women-with-higher-education-levels

Yes, and the vast majority of those women made choices that resulted in that situation. And they then make choices that make that situation permanent. But unless you support the state taking those kids and putting them in foster care, the mothers have made choices that will impact their children's entire lives, despite the best efforts of schools. BTW - the statistic showing children in single parent homes by race exactly mirrors academic performance by race.

+1. Poor choices have consequences, especially if it involves having a child.

Funny how the woman is always blamed.

Did the woman somehow not play any part in it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot on DCUM (who have generational wealth and are into all the wordsmith theory going on nowadays) don't realize that the old system did work to raise people up from the bottom if you had a strong support system.

I grew up lower middle class. My parents (yes, I had an involved father) instilled in me a hard work ethic and stressed that only through education would I make more money than them. I didn't have tutors, but I was in honors, ignored all the others trying to get me to skip school in high school, got good grades and now am part of the upper 10%. My children have had an easier start than I did.

If there isn't familial support, the equity steps taken won't matter except on paper by bringing people like my children down.

You were privileged to grow up in a 2-parent household.

For some races, 69% of kids are born to unwed mothers:
https://www.childtrends.org/publications/dramatic-increase-in-percentage-of-births-outside-marriage-among-whites-hispanics-and-women-with-higher-education-levels

That’s the consequence of poor decision making.

The child has no say in that.

Yep it’s unfortunate. But punishing my kid for the sins of their parents doesn’t fix that problem. Bottom line is that schools can’t fix shitty parents.

Single parent \= “shitty parent”

Especially considering the parent who is the “single parent” is the one who stepped up to the plate.

Agreed, but one of the two parents probably is.

That’s not to say that divorced/unwed parents can’t successfully raise a child to not need equitable measures. It for sure happens.

This. One of the parent is the shitty parent. This is especially true in the poor black communities where many fathers are incarcerated. Those that are not, many abandon their responsibilities to their kid and could care less. I have a good friend in this situation but she is lucky because she has support from her family and they are helping to raise him. These kids have no strong father figures at all.

The single moms with no support are working to support the family so no one is at home watching the kids. They then get into trouble, hang out with the wrong crowd, etc….

The other issue is that some households with 2 parents, they just don’t give a sh’t about the kids and are just unfit to be parents. Ask a teacher in a title 1 school about that and they can easily tell you the percentages and you would be surprised.

Those kids are getting in trouble because police and school administrators are racist. It's not their fault. If you look at arrest and incarceration rates, black males are way overrepresented.

So they are being framed?

NP. There are multiple components to the systemic racism that leads to higher incarceration rates.

Redlining
Lack of generational wealth
Untreated learning disabilities
Harsher consequences at school
Lack of knowledge about education/college
Bias in hiring
Bias in arrests
Harsher sentencing

It’s pretty easy for a kid to make a few mistakes when they are young and then never be able to pull themselves out of that hole.

Where is the personal responsibility?

Generational wealth - shitty parents, a whole bunch of them but realistically, there are tons of normal everyday middle class Americans of all colors without generational wealth.
Untreated learning disabilities - shitty parents
Lack of knowledge about college - shitty parents
Bias in arrests, sentencing - don’t care, stop committing crimes. This isn’t rocket science
Bias in hiring - racist quota systems set up in many institutions now. But remaining bias may also exist because all of the above is true.

So how does removing advanced math/tracking fix any of that? The kids who have bad parents and/or learning disabilities will still get as good an education as the school system is capable of giving. Systemic discrimination of kids with greater learning capabilities seems like a stupid answer to problems created by perceived systemic racism.

That’s not happening.

But go ahead and pretend like systemic racism isn’t happening.

VMPI was all just a dream. thankfully. But the original point of the exchange was that bad parents create bad outcomes, regardless of race. That includes leaving a child to be raised by one parent.

VMPI was never removing advanced math.

Might be tough to be a “good” parent if generations of your ancestors were blocked from becoming “good” parents. People are fundamentally good; everyone wants to be “good” parents. There are just fewer obstacles to being “good” parents for some people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot on DCUM (who have generational wealth and are into all the wordsmith theory going on nowadays) don't realize that the old system did work to raise people up from the bottom if you had a strong support system.

I grew up lower middle class. My parents (yes, I had an involved father) instilled in me a hard work ethic and stressed that only through education would I make more money than them. I didn't have tutors, but I was in honors, ignored all the others trying to get me to skip school in high school, got good grades and now am part of the upper 10%. My children have had an easier start than I did.

If there isn't familial support, the equity steps taken won't matter except on paper by bringing people like my children down.

You were privileged to grow up in a 2-parent household.

For some races, 69% of kids are born to unwed mothers:
https://www.childtrends.org/publications/dramatic-increase-in-percentage-of-births-outside-marriage-among-whites-hispanics-and-women-with-higher-education-levels

Yes, and the vast majority of those women made choices that resulted in that situation. And they then make choices that make that situation permanent. But unless you support the state taking those kids and putting them in foster care, the mothers have made choices that will impact their children's entire lives, despite the best efforts of schools. BTW - the statistic showing children in single parent homes by race exactly mirrors academic performance by race.

+1. Poor choices have consequences, especially if it involves having a child.

Funny how the woman is always blamed.

It takes 2 to tangle yes but you can’t deny all these teenage single mothers who then drop out of school. Or women who have multiple children all with different fathers of which none are around.

Don’t have sex or use birth control, don’t have a kid until you are done with school. Don’t have a kid until you can at least support yourself and have some savings. Don’t have a kid unless you have a partner who also wants to have a child and you are sure will stick around to help raise that child.

Above are all poor choices and are very prevalent choices in some communities.

We should make long-acting reversible contraception free and very accessible (IUD or implant). Or, even better, mandatory vasectomies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot on DCUM (who have generational wealth and are into all the wordsmith theory going on nowadays) don't realize that the old system did work to raise people up from the bottom if you had a strong support system.

I grew up lower middle class. My parents (yes, I had an involved father) instilled in me a hard work ethic and stressed that only through education would I make more money than them. I didn't have tutors, but I was in honors, ignored all the others trying to get me to skip school in high school, got good grades and now am part of the upper 10%. My children have had an easier start than I did.

If there isn't familial support, the equity steps taken won't matter except on paper by bringing people like my children down.

You were privileged to grow up in a 2-parent household.

For some races, 69% of kids are born to unwed mothers:
https://www.childtrends.org/publications/dramatic-increase-in-percentage-of-births-outside-marriage-among-whites-hispanics-and-women-with-higher-education-levels

That’s the consequence of poor decision making.

The child has no say in that.

Yep it’s unfortunate. But punishing my kid for the sins of their parents doesn’t fix that problem. Bottom line is that schools can’t fix shitty parents.

Single parent \= “shitty parent”

Especially considering the parent who is the “single parent” is the one who stepped up to the plate.

Agreed, but one of the two parents probably is.

That’s not to say that divorced/unwed parents can’t successfully raise a child to not need equitable measures. It for sure happens.

This. One of the parent is the shitty parent. This is especially true in the poor black communities where many fathers are incarcerated. Those that are not, many abandon their responsibilities to their kid and could care less. I have a good friend in this situation but she is lucky because she has support from her family and they are helping to raise him. These kids have no strong father figures at all.

The single moms with no support are working to support the family so no one is at home watching the kids. They then get into trouble, hang out with the wrong crowd, etc….

The other issue is that some households with 2 parents, they just don’t give a sh’t about the kids and are just unfit to be parents. Ask a teacher in a title 1 school about that and they can easily tell you the percentages and you would be surprised.

Those kids are getting in trouble because police and school administrators are racist. It's not their fault. If you look at arrest and incarceration rates, black males are way overrepresented.

So they are being framed?

NP. There are multiple components to the systemic racism that leads to higher incarceration rates.

Redlining
Lack of generational wealth
Untreated learning disabilities
Harsher consequences at school
Lack of knowledge about education/college
Bias in hiring
Bias in arrests
Harsher sentencing

It’s pretty easy for a kid to make a few mistakes when they are young and then never be able to pull themselves out of that hole.

Where is the personal responsibility?

Generational wealth - shitty parents, a whole bunch of them but realistically, there are tons of normal everyday middle class Americans of all colors without generational wealth.
Untreated learning disabilities - shitty parents
Lack of knowledge about college - shitty parents
Bias in arrests, sentencing - don’t care, stop committing crimes. This isn’t rocket science
Bias in hiring - racist quota systems set up in many institutions now. But remaining bias may also exist because all of the above is true.

So how does removing advanced math/tracking fix any of that? The kids who have bad parents and/or learning disabilities will still get as good an education as the school system is capable of giving. Systemic discrimination of kids with greater learning capabilities seems like a stupid answer to problems created by perceived systemic racism.

That’s not happening.

But go ahead and pretend like systemic racism isn’t happening.

It is with ELA if not with math.

By the way, systemic racism isn't something that actively or consciously ccurs. It is something that is inherently and subconsciously present. Perhaps eliminating honors ELA is counter productive.

It can also be active/conscious - such as redlining.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot on DCUM (who have generational wealth and are into all the wordsmith theory going on nowadays) don't realize that the old system did work to raise people up from the bottom if you had a strong support system.

I grew up lower middle class. My parents (yes, I had an involved father) instilled in me a hard work ethic and stressed that only through education would I make more money than them. I didn't have tutors, but I was in honors, ignored all the others trying to get me to skip school in high school, got good grades and now am part of the upper 10%. My children have had an easier start than I did.

If there isn't familial support, the equity steps taken won't matter except on paper by bringing people like my children down.

You were privileged to grow up in a 2-parent household.

For some races, 69% of kids are born to unwed mothers:
https://www.childtrends.org/publications/dramatic-increase-in-percentage-of-births-outside-marriage-among-whites-hispanics-and-women-with-higher-education-levels

That’s the consequence of poor decision making.

The child has no say in that.

Yep it’s unfortunate. But punishing my kid for the sins of their parents doesn’t fix that problem. Bottom line is that schools can’t fix shitty parents.

Single parent \= “shitty parent”

Especially considering the parent who is the “single parent” is the one who stepped up to the plate.

Agreed, but one of the two parents probably is.

That’s not to say that divorced/unwed parents can’t successfully raise a child to not need equitable measures. It for sure happens.

This. One of the parent is the shitty parent. This is especially true in the poor black communities where many fathers are incarcerated. Those that are not, many abandon their responsibilities to their kid and could care less. I have a good friend in this situation but she is lucky because she has support from her family and they are helping to raise him. These kids have no strong father figures at all.

The single moms with no support are working to support the family so no one is at home watching the kids. They then get into trouble, hang out with the wrong crowd, etc….

The other issue is that some households with 2 parents, they just don’t give a sh’t about the kids and are just unfit to be parents. Ask a teacher in a title 1 school about that and they can easily tell you the percentages and you would be surprised.

Those kids are getting in trouble because police and school administrators are racist. It's not their fault. If you look at arrest and incarceration rates, black males are way overrepresented.

So they are being framed?

NP. There are multiple components to the systemic racism that leads to higher incarceration rates.

Redlining
Lack of generational wealth
Untreated learning disabilities
Harsher consequences at school
Lack of knowledge about education/college
Bias in hiring
Bias in arrests
Harsher sentencing

It’s pretty easy for a kid to make a few mistakes when they are young and then never be able to pull themselves out of that hole.

Where is the personal responsibility?

Generational wealth - shitty parents, a whole bunch of them but realistically, there are tons of normal everyday middle class Americans of all colors without generational wealth.
Untreated learning disabilities - shitty parents
Lack of knowledge about college - shitty parents
Bias in arrests, sentencing - don’t care, stop committing crimes. This isn’t rocket science
Bias in hiring - racist quota systems set up in many institutions now. But remaining bias may also exist because all of the above is true.

So how does removing advanced math/tracking fix any of that? The kids who have bad parents and/or learning disabilities will still get as good an education as the school system is capable of giving. Systemic discrimination of kids with greater learning capabilities seems like a stupid answer to problems created by perceived systemic racism.

That’s not happening.

But go ahead and pretend like systemic racism isn’t happening.

I'm guessing you haven't been following the California math wars.