Permanently canceling annual trip

[Anonymous]

OP, if your DH says anything to Hank about this, basically he is asking him to choose between hanging out with your family or siding with his wife.

If he is basically afraid of her (leaving him, taking the kids, fleeing to Italy) he isn't going to risk that just to spend lake time with you all, no matter how much he and his kids enjoy it.

Also, if your DH talks to him to say he's worried, Flo is abusive, Hank is drinking too much, etc., I almost guarantee you Hank is gone.

I think the best you can do is slowly pulling away, and DH just does guy night in town with Hank.

[Anonymous]

I feel sorry for Flo and think it's super awkward you are outing the poor woman on the internet. I bet she's a great cook and loving mother who is distressed about the state of her marriage. I doubt she screams at people. The least you can do is help out with the dishes when she cooks an authentic Italian meal. Capisci?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DP. My mom (from East Asia) was similarly obsessed about slippers. My parents' house had wall to wall thick carpet, yet they always wore padded slippers b/c otherwise their feet would get cold. Mom absolutely insisted upon us wearing them too when we visited. Then we had to change into different slippers for the kitchen area, b/c it had tiles and not as clean as the carpeted area. She was militant about it and would shriek if we didn't wear the correct slippers.

It doesn't matter where Flo is from. People like that have some form of mental illness that makes them obsess over certain things. My mom had some anxiety disorder and was extremely controlling and liable to scream and shout when we didn't comply with her fully. In Flo and Hank's case, there's also marital issues that add misery.

You don't have subject your family to Flo's behavior though. Protect yourselves, protect your kids, offer Hank support. That's really all you can do.

We should have a slippers group therapy session.

There are slippers for the deck. There are water shoes for the lake (this makes sense to me). There are slippers for the house. The kids wash their feet with the hose before getting on the deck and leave their water shoes. Then they can run on the deck which has some toys and things. we also have dinner occasionally on the deck. Getting from the lake to their bedrooms involves three different types of footwear. This is fine if you’re an adult but for goodness sakes imagine a small child! And again it’s okay if you want this policy, but don’t lose your mind when you see incorrect footwear.

By the way, because of the amount of people in the house I sweep and vacuum every day. I would understand if the floors were gritty or dirty, but they’re quite clean! And I use a steam mop every few days.

NP: I'm going to quibble with "this is fine if you're an adult." Three shoe changes to walk from the lake to your bedroom is disordered-level OCD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks so much for the ideas. I guess I could manufacture a reason why wives couldn’t attend except I realllllllly like going out there.

I showed my husband the thread and he said I forgot to mention that Hank has said on many occasions that his wife’s solo trips to Italy were the reason they could stay married. Hank takes numerous boys trips throughout the year as well.

Husband also says Hank is drinking a lot more than he used to. Wonders if that might be the source of Flo’s rages- although she sure drinks a lot too.

Why can't you just go to the lake house without Hank's family? Does he expect to be included every time? Your H needs to be honest with him and let him know that Flo is making you guys really uncomfortable and you all still want to see him, but not like it's always been.

Hank could be drinking more as a coping mechanism. Who knows which came first. The drinking or the marital issues.

Hank has been invited every Labor Day since we basically bought the house. He brought Flo back when they were first married (when she used to be fun Flo). All the kids have been there their whole lives.

The same goes for MLK weekend. We all go, have a snowball fight battle, and have the best time (minus Flo). In years past she was always wound a bit tight and would complain about the kids not wearing the right slippers (I’m telling you, the slippers are so important to her) or of the pizza if we ordered some food. We did take a break for 2020 and 2021 due to covid concerns and this year found her to be totally intolerable. The nagging and shouting and temper tantrums were always there but either hidden or not as explosive. Now she is openly fighting and screaming at Hank and the kids. And as I mentioned, even starting to complain about our behavior as well. I made a bagged salad and she wouldn’t touch it as “bagged salads contain diseases”. She was mad that I fed her kids crappy frozen Walmart pizza while she was cooking some elaborate dinner that was running late. The kids were super hungry and I didn't want them to wait until 10pm to have dinner!

Also her kids love coming to the lake. They love it. They talk about mlk weekend constantly. I felt terrible in 2020 and 2021 bc they weren’t with us. I feel sick at taking it from the kids.

Sorry, but that's just rude. You don't serve PIZZA from WALMART while an ITALIAN is making YOUR DINNER. You ask if you can help out with the cooking to speed things along, you feed them a snack. But to feed them pizza from Walmart instead of waiting for the elaborate meal is a total insult. Any Italian would be pissed. Italians are all about food. That's her thing. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Flo sounds like she has a personality disorder, not that this is any excuse to be abusive. And I'm sure Hank knows she is horrible.

I'd just have your husband say, look, the family trips haven't been run and relaxing for you guys recently, how about just a dads and kids trip? He can word it in whatever way he thinks will be the least upsetting. You are not obligated to invite anyone to your home and you can always set the parameters for what you will and won't go for.

I definitely agree she has a personality disorder. I don’t think it is just cultural. I also think she’s depressed. She doesn’t seem to take a lot of joy in anything and that was definitely not the case before. She was always a fussy combative person, but since 2020 she’s been extra ragey.

I think Covid did a number on a lot of people. I had a friend who was always a bit *extra* but we had some good times together and I could just ignore the occasional rant (although alienating people was sort of a specialty of hers). During Covid the anger became permanent and pervasive. My DH and I both tried staying away from topics that would set her off, but it seemed everything set her off. When changing the subject didn’t work, we tried being very direct — “we’re not going to talk about this.” Finally, we just agreed that we couldn’t communicate with her anymore. I am still sad about it, but it was nothing but anger and angst, and we just don’t need that in our lives. I agree that you should let your DH spend time with Hank, but you don’t need to subject yourself or your children to that much rage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel sorry for Flo and think it's super awkward you are outing the poor woman on the internet. I bet she's a great cook and loving mother who is distressed about the state of her marriage. I doubt she screams at people. The least you can do is help out with the dishes when she cooks an authentic Italian meal. Capisci?

I don’t doubt she screams at people. I know people like this and their excuse is always the same: “I’m from _____. This is just the way we are!”

And if you choose to make daily giant messes cooking on vacation when no one asked you to, clean up the mess you chose to create. Capisci?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel sorry for Flo and think it's super awkward you are outing the poor woman on the internet. I bet she's a great cook and loving mother who is distressed about the state of her marriage. I doubt she screams at people. The least you can do is help out with the dishes when she cooks an authentic Italian meal. Capisci?

Does this hit to close to home or something? How can you determine whether a random internet friend of a friend screams at people?

[Anonymous]

My DH has his set of friends and I have mine. There are not many couples that get along with each other. Let the husbands do their own thing. Post- Covid life is too short to force triendships OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks so much for the ideas. I guess I could manufacture a reason why wives couldn’t attend except I realllllllly like going out there.

I showed my husband the thread and he said I forgot to mention that Hank has said on many occasions that his wife’s solo trips to Italy were the reason they could stay married. Hank takes numerous boys trips throughout the year as well.

Husband also says Hank is drinking a lot more than he used to. Wonders if that might be the source of Flo’s rages- although she sure drinks a lot too.

Why can't you just go to the lake house without Hank's family? Does he expect to be included every time? Your H needs to be honest with him and let him know that Flo is making you guys really uncomfortable and you all still want to see him, but not like it's always been.

Hank could be drinking more as a coping mechanism. Who knows which came first. The drinking or the marital issues.

Hank has been invited every Labor Day since we basically bought the house. He brought Flo back when they were first married (when she used to be fun Flo). All the kids have been there their whole lives.

The same goes for MLK weekend. We all go, have a snowball fight battle, and have the best time (minus Flo). In years past she was always wound a bit tight and would complain about the kids not wearing the right slippers (I’m telling you, the slippers are so important to her) or of the pizza if we ordered some food. We did take a break for 2020 and 2021 due to covid concerns and this year found her to be totally intolerable. The nagging and shouting and temper tantrums were always there but either hidden or not as explosive. Now she is openly fighting and screaming at Hank and the kids. And as I mentioned, even starting to complain about our behavior as well. I made a bagged salad and she wouldn’t touch it as “bagged salads contain diseases”. She was mad that I fed her kids crappy frozen Walmart pizza while she was cooking some elaborate dinner that was running late. The kids were super hungry and I didn't want them to wait until 10pm to have dinner!

Also her kids love coming to the lake. They love it. They talk about mlk weekend constantly. I felt terrible in 2020 and 2021 bc they weren’t with us. I feel sick at taking it from the kids.

Sorry, but that's just rude. You don't serve PIZZA from WALMART while an ITALIAN is making YOUR DINNER. You ask if you can help out with the cooking to speed things along, you feed them a snack. But to feed them pizza from Walmart instead of waiting for the elaborate meal is a total insult. Any Italian would be pissed. Italians are all about food. That's her thing. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

this is not just an Italian thing. This is an any person who is going to great lengths to cook for you thing. I do think that it is incredibly strange that OP would actively serve an alternate dinner while primary dinner is being cooked. I would be pissed, and I'm not Italian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks so much for the ideas. I guess I could manufacture a reason why wives couldn’t attend except I realllllllly like going out there.

I showed my husband the thread and he said I forgot to mention that Hank has said on many occasions that his wife’s solo trips to Italy were the reason they could stay married. Hank takes numerous boys trips throughout the year as well.

Husband also says Hank is drinking a lot more than he used to. Wonders if that might be the source of Flo’s rages- although she sure drinks a lot too.

Why can't you just go to the lake house without Hank's family? Does he expect to be included every time? Your H needs to be honest with him and let him know that Flo is making you guys really uncomfortable and you all still want to see him, but not like it's always been.

Hank could be drinking more as a coping mechanism. Who knows which came first. The drinking or the marital issues.

Hank has been invited every Labor Day since we basically bought the house. He brought Flo back when they were first married (when she used to be fun Flo). All the kids have been there their whole lives.

The same goes for MLK weekend. We all go, have a snowball fight battle, and have the best time (minus Flo). In years past she was always wound a bit tight and would complain about the kids not wearing the right slippers (I’m telling you, the slippers are so important to her) or of the pizza if we ordered some food. We did take a break for 2020 and 2021 due to covid concerns and this year found her to be totally intolerable. The nagging and shouting and temper tantrums were always there but either hidden or not as explosive. Now she is openly fighting and screaming at Hank and the kids. And as I mentioned, even starting to complain about our behavior as well. I made a bagged salad and she wouldn’t touch it as “bagged salads contain diseases”. She was mad that I fed her kids crappy frozen Walmart pizza while she was cooking some elaborate dinner that was running late. The kids were super hungry and I didn't want them to wait until 10pm to have dinner!

Also her kids love coming to the lake. They love it. They talk about mlk weekend constantly. I felt terrible in 2020 and 2021 bc they weren’t with us. I feel sick at taking it from the kids.

Sorry, but that's just rude. You don't serve PIZZA from WALMART while an ITALIAN is making YOUR DINNER. You ask if you can help out with the cooking to speed things along, you feed them a snack. But to feed them pizza from Walmart instead of waiting for the elaborate meal is a total insult. Any Italian would be pissed. Italians are all about food. That's her thing. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

this is not just an Italian thing. This is an any person who is going to great lengths to cook for you thing. I do think that it is incredibly strange that OP would actively serve an alternate dinner while primary dinner is being cooked. I would be pissed, and I'm not Italian.

I agree. I would be angry if you did that. OP sounds like she is just gaslighting. Her DH probably has the hots for Flo

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks so much for the ideas. I guess I could manufacture a reason why wives couldn’t attend except I realllllllly like going out there.

I showed my husband the thread and he said I forgot to mention that Hank has said on many occasions that his wife’s solo trips to Italy were the reason they could stay married. Hank takes numerous boys trips throughout the year as well.

Husband also says Hank is drinking a lot more than he used to. Wonders if that might be the source of Flo’s rages- although she sure drinks a lot too.

Why can't you just go to the lake house without Hank's family? Does he expect to be included every time? Your H needs to be honest with him and let him know that Flo is making you guys really uncomfortable and you all still want to see him, but not like it's always been.

Hank could be drinking more as a coping mechanism. Who knows which came first. The drinking or the marital issues.

Hank has been invited every Labor Day since we basically bought the house. He brought Flo back when they were first married (when she used to be fun Flo). All the kids have been there their whole lives.

The same goes for MLK weekend. We all go, have a snowball fight battle, and have the best time (minus Flo). In years past she was always wound a bit tight and would complain about the kids not wearing the right slippers (I’m telling you, the slippers are so important to her) or of the pizza if we ordered some food. We did take a break for 2020 and 2021 due to covid concerns and this year found her to be totally intolerable. The nagging and shouting and temper tantrums were always there but either hidden or not as explosive. Now she is openly fighting and screaming at Hank and the kids. And as I mentioned, even starting to complain about our behavior as well. I made a bagged salad and she wouldn’t touch it as “bagged salads contain diseases”. She was mad that I fed her kids crappy frozen Walmart pizza while she was cooking some elaborate dinner that was running late. The kids were super hungry and I didn't want them to wait until 10pm to have dinner!

Also her kids love coming to the lake. They love it. They talk about mlk weekend constantly. I felt terrible in 2020 and 2021 bc they weren’t with us. I feel sick at taking it from the kids.

Sorry, but that's just rude. You don't serve PIZZA from WALMART while an ITALIAN is making YOUR DINNER. You ask if you can help out with the cooking to speed things along, you feed them a snack. But to feed them pizza from Walmart instead of waiting for the elaborate meal is a total insult. Any Italian would be pissed. Italians are all about food. That's her thing. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

OP here. Your comment made me laugh! I actually understand this perspective and her pizzas are TO DIE FOR (even if they’re a little different from the kind of pizzas you have here). God I’m wondering if my overlooking a lot of her bad behavior is because I love her food!!!!

But when dinner takes hours and hours. And we have hungry kids who were doing a lot of exercise all day, and are starving (Flo forbids snacks). I don’t think it’s fair to them to wait until 10pm for an adult dinner. And for goodness sakes- it’s MY KITCHEN. Which btw she didn’t even ask to use! Sure I love her cooking but it is unfair to ruin all our plans (like feeding our kids at a reasonable time!) so she could cook an elaborate meal! Oh and we ended up having dinner closer to 11, by the time the kids had gone to sleep. I didn’t like cleaning the kitchen at midnight either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel sorry for Flo and think it's super awkward you are outing the poor woman on the internet. I bet she's a great cook and loving mother who is distressed about the state of her marriage. I doubt she screams at people. The least you can do is help out with the dishes when she cooks an authentic Italian meal. Capisci?

I don’t doubt she screams at people. I know people like this and their excuse is always the same: “I’m from _____. This is just the way we are!”

And if you choose to make daily giant messes cooking on vacation when no one asked you to, clean up the mess you chose to create. Capisci?

OP here. I agree that she should clean giant messes (like my oven!) if she makes them. But I realize it’s easier and quicker to clean the kitchen myself than listening to her berate everyone the next day because she’s tired.

[Anonymous]

You sound very controlling and territorial. I’m wondering how much all of this is a response to each of you having different ways of managing your households and expectations of others. You also never know what’s going in in their home life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Flo sounds like she has a personality disorder, not that this is any excuse to be abusive. And I'm sure Hank knows she is horrible.

I'd just have your husband say, look, the family trips haven't been run and relaxing for you guys recently, how about just a dads and kids trip? He can word it in whatever way he thinks will be the least upsetting. You are not obligated to invite anyone to your home and you can always set the parameters for what you will and won't go for.

I definitely agree she has a personality disorder. I don’t think it is just cultural. I also think she’s depressed. She doesn’t seem to take a lot of joy in anything and that was definitely not the case before. She was always a fussy combative person, but since 2020 she’s been extra ragey.

I think Covid did a number on a lot of people. I had a friend who was always a bit *extra* but we had some good times together and I could just ignore the occasional rant (although alienating people was sort of a specialty of hers). During Covid the anger became permanent and pervasive. My DH and I both tried staying away from topics that would set her off, but it seemed everything set her off. When changing the subject didn’t work, we tried being very direct — “we’re not going to talk about this.” Finally, we just agreed that we couldn’t communicate with her anymore. I am still sad about it, but it was nothing but anger and angst, and we just don’t need that in our lives. I agree that you should let your DH spend time with Hank, but you don’t need to subject yourself or your children to that much rage.

Op here: Really and truly this is it. She was fun Flo for years! I loved her and she was definitely a good friend. We would text every day! But during covid it was clear she fell into a deep depression and her rages (which were sorta funny before) became dark. The yelling which didn’t exist before became loud and dark. Italy was hit hard during the pandemic, especially the early part, and I know she spent months worrying about her family. I don’t think she’s come out of this depression. DH spends a lot of time with Hank one on one (they do sports together), and I wonder if maybe we can quietly distance ourselves while letting them continue their friendship.

I think I’m just sad that our friendship the way it was is over I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks so much for the ideas. I guess I could manufacture a reason why wives couldn’t attend except I realllllllly like going out there.

I showed my husband the thread and he said I forgot to mention that Hank has said on many occasions that his wife’s solo trips to Italy were the reason they could stay married. Hank takes numerous boys trips throughout the year as well.

Husband also says Hank is drinking a lot more than he used to. Wonders if that might be the source of Flo’s rages- although she sure drinks a lot too.

Why can't you just go to the lake house without Hank's family? Does he expect to be included every time? Your H needs to be honest with him and let him know that Flo is making you guys really uncomfortable and you all still want to see him, but not like it's always been.

Hank could be drinking more as a coping mechanism. Who knows which came first. The drinking or the marital issues.

Hank has been invited every Labor Day since we basically bought the house. He brought Flo back when they were first married (when she used to be fun Flo). All the kids have been there their whole lives.

The same goes for MLK weekend. We all go, have a snowball fight battle, and have the best time (minus Flo). In years past she was always wound a bit tight and would complain about the kids not wearing the right slippers (I’m telling you, the slippers are so important to her) or of the pizza if we ordered some food. We did take a break for 2020 and 2021 due to covid concerns and this year found her to be totally intolerable. The nagging and shouting and temper tantrums were always there but either hidden or not as explosive. Now she is openly fighting and screaming at Hank and the kids. And as I mentioned, even starting to complain about our behavior as well. I made a bagged salad and she wouldn’t touch it as “bagged salads contain diseases”. She was mad that I fed her kids crappy frozen Walmart pizza while she was cooking some elaborate dinner that was running late. The kids were super hungry and I didn't want them to wait until 10pm to have dinner!

Also her kids love coming to the lake. They love it. They talk about mlk weekend constantly. I felt terrible in 2020 and 2021 bc they weren’t with us. I feel sick at taking it from the kids.

Sorry, but that's just rude. You don't serve PIZZA from WALMART while an ITALIAN is making YOUR DINNER. You ask if you can help out with the cooking to speed things along, you feed them a snack. But to feed them pizza from Walmart instead of waiting for the elaborate meal is a total insult. Any Italian would be pissed. Italians are all about food. That's her thing. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

this is not just an Italian thing. This is an any person who is going to great lengths to cook for you thing. I do think that it is incredibly strange that OP would actively serve an alternate dinner while primary dinner is being cooked. I would be pissed, and I'm not Italian.

+1

You seem rude, and kind of regimented yourself, OP.

Separately, are you an introvert and the other wife is an extrovert? Is that why you think she is “loud”?