Ramifications from Religious roots of abortion

[Anonymous]

Also, please don’t make proclamations about what I need to do to achieve “spiritual growth.” You don’t know me at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Western religions all have a history of being patriarchal and othering women, to varying extents. It is unsurprising that adherents to these religions see women as innately sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

Folk religions and those that are more matriarchal have tended to have a softer view of women in general, including womens fertility.

The fact is that as long as there have been humans, there have been means derived to terminate and control pregnancies. Folk remedies were common. The genesis of the abortion struggle in the US began when the AMA (mostly men) took issue with the fact that women sought and got abortions outside of the medical establishment. This is an establishment that continues to “other” women, discount our pain and experiences, and otherwise seeks to disempower people when it comes to their own health and healing.

Judaism does not see women as inherently sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

You are kidding, right? Maybe not sinful, but Judaism absolutely sees women's bodies, sexuality, and fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/modesty-and-sexuality-in-halakhic-literature

Though it is not mentioned in the Bible, the laws of modesty in Jewish life have developed into a significant part of modern halakhic practice. Along with a set of rules for men’s behavior, the rules of modesty are designed to restrain men’s sexual urges, even as the obligations largely fall onto women. These rules are meant to ensure that sex occurs in a way the rabbis view as appropriate. In addition to these rules, the rabbis also regulate sex itself, giving men an obligation to have sex. However, opinions differ across different Jewish movements as to whether that sexuality is to be enjoyed or is merely an obligation to be performed. Modesty remains an important topic in Israeli debates about women’s role in society.

See also https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/judaism-and-sexuality/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Western religions all have a history of being patriarchal and othering women, to varying extents. It is unsurprising that adherents to these religions see women as innately sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

Folk religions and those that are more matriarchal have tended to have a softer view of women in general, including womens fertility.

The fact is that as long as there have been humans, there have been means derived to terminate and control pregnancies. Folk remedies were common. The genesis of the abortion struggle in the US began when the AMA (mostly men) took issue with the fact that women sought and got abortions outside of the medical establishment. This is an establishment that continues to “other” women, discount our pain and experiences, and otherwise seeks to disempower people when it comes to their own health and healing.

Judaism does not see women as inherently sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

You are kidding, right? Maybe not sinful, but Judaism absolutely sees women's bodies, sexuality, and fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/modesty-and-sexuality-in-halakhic-literature

Though it is not mentioned in the Bible, the laws of modesty in Jewish life have developed into a significant part of modern halakhic practice. Along with a set of rules for men’s behavior, the rules of modesty are designed to restrain men’s sexual urges, even as the obligations largely fall onto women. These rules are meant to ensure that sex occurs in a way the rabbis view as appropriate. In addition to these rules, the rabbis also regulate sex itself, giving men an obligation to have sex. However, opinions differ across different Jewish movements as to whether that sexuality is to be enjoyed or is merely an obligation to be performed. Modesty remains an important topic in Israeli debates about women’s role in society.

See also https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/judaism-and-sexuality/

Those laws around modesty are only followed by Orthodox Jews. As I have said earlier, I meant to refer only to non-Orthodox Jews. I should have been more specific.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am Catholic. None of these cases are based on What Jesus taught. Abortion was widely recommended by priests and catholic doctors during the potato famine in Ireland because kids weee starving to death and abortion was the right thing to do.

The rules around religion and birth control are made up by men who run the church, it’s not based in Jesus’ teachings.

The alt-right Catholics have been bamboozled, lied to, brain washed. This brain washing began centuries ago but our current situation started in the Ronald Regan era, it’s very well documented. Regan made abortion legal in California but when he ran for office a strategist explain if he ran on religious rights they could win. SO they picked prayer and abortion and the brain washing began.

I feel a little sorry for the Catholics being duped, my mom being one of them. She believes Democrats want abortions up to 6 weeks after a baby is born. You can even find video of Luz Cheney saying Democrats kill babies after they are born… and people believe it, it’s sad and pathetic.

Sounds like you are being duped by remaining part of the largest proudly anti-choice organization in the world. Your catechism states without a doubt that any and all abortion is a mortal sin. You can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince yourself otherwise but you yourself said you are member. Many of us would see you as sad and pathetic.

You don’t seem deeply educated in the history of Catholicism. It’s not a cult, you can question the insane changes the men of the church make especially when it’s not rooted in Jesus’s teachings,

I’m sorry you think Catholicism is a cult.

Please explain to me how one can question what the Vatican says.

Look up infallibility… the Pope is only infallible when he ex cathedra aka “speaks from the chair”, which he rarely does. Vatican 2 isn’t even infallible.

The Pope is one source of information… God who should speak to you through your soul or the Holy Spirit is your only real guide. Men are sinners, they are not perfect and power is a dangerous aphrodisiac. Don’t let them have power over you.

Sit quietly with your soul (not your ego) what does it say … follow that

If Vatican 2 isn’t infallible, then does that mean that if my soul tells me that the Jews killed Jesus, then it’s ok if that’s what I believe?

Has your soul told you that it was it your ego? Or was it your brain?

I’m position that my soul told me that.

*positing

You can’t posit about your soul. Your ego is in overdrive. BTW ego has nothing to do with being egotistical. Your deep need to prove somebody else wrong with debate strategies is getting in the way of your spiritual growth.

You said “sit quietly with your soul.” You also said “Vatican 2 is not infallible.” I am asking you whether that means that if I sit quietly with my soul and conclude that the Jews killed Jesus, is that ok?

I asked did your soul tell u that? You have not answered because the answer is no. You don’t like to hear things that don’t go the way you are trying to control them to go. Does trying to control others and the conversations you have with them weave throughout your whole life? (Ego) And how is that working for you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am Catholic. None of these cases are based on What Jesus taught. Abortion was widely recommended by priests and catholic doctors during the potato famine in Ireland because kids weee starving to death and abortion was the right thing to do.

The rules around religion and birth control are made up by men who run the church, it’s not based in Jesus’ teachings.

The alt-right Catholics have been bamboozled, lied to, brain washed. This brain washing began centuries ago but our current situation started in the Ronald Regan era, it’s very well documented. Regan made abortion legal in California but when he ran for office a strategist explain if he ran on religious rights they could win. SO they picked prayer and abortion and the brain washing began.

I feel a little sorry for the Catholics being duped, my mom being one of them. She believes Democrats want abortions up to 6 weeks after a baby is born. You can even find video of Luz Cheney saying Democrats kill babies after they are born… and people believe it, it’s sad and pathetic.

Sounds like you are being duped by remaining part of the largest proudly anti-choice organization in the world. Your catechism states without a doubt that any and all abortion is a mortal sin. You can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince yourself otherwise but you yourself said you are member. Many of us would see you as sad and pathetic.

You don’t seem deeply educated in the history of Catholicism. It’s not a cult, you can question the insane changes the men of the church make especially when it’s not rooted in Jesus’s teachings,

I’m sorry you think Catholicism is a cult.

Please explain to me how one can question what the Vatican says.

Look up infallibility… the Pope is only infallible when he ex cathedra aka “speaks from the chair”, which he rarely does. Vatican 2 isn’t even infallible.

The Pope is one source of information… God who should speak to you through your soul or the Holy Spirit is your only real guide. Men are sinners, they are not perfect and power is a dangerous aphrodisiac. Don’t let them have power over you.

Sit quietly with your soul (not your ego) what does it say … follow that

If Vatican 2 isn’t infallible, then does that mean that if my soul tells me that the Jews killed Jesus, then it’s ok if that’s what I believe?

Has your soul told you that it was it your ego? Or was it your brain?

I’m position that my soul told me that.

*positing

You can’t posit about your soul. Your ego is in overdrive. BTW ego has nothing to do with being egotistical. Your deep need to prove somebody else wrong with debate strategies is getting in the way of your spiritual growth.

You said “sit quietly with your soul.” You also said “Vatican 2 is not infallible.” I am asking you whether that means that if I sit quietly with my soul and conclude that the Jews killed Jesus, is that ok?

I asked did your soul tell u that? You have not answered because the answer is no. You don’t like to hear things that don’t go the way you are trying to control them to go. Does trying to control others and the conversations you have with them weave throughout your whole life? (Ego) And how is that working for you

I posited a statement that is the logical extension of what you wrote. You refuse to engage and are instead going on about soul and ego in an extremely pejorative way. I don’t need to tell you a thing about what my soul says and it’s offensive that you think you know what is happening within my soul, my ego, or anything else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm pro birth. I think there needs to be a system like in Israel, where you need permission from 3 doctors to have an abortion.

This is no longer the case in Israel: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/06/28/israel-abortion-law-changes-roe/

Well that is a pity. I think it was a s a good system

Read again; they haven’t done away with the abortion tribunal, although it isn’t composed of 3 doctors. Why does that rubber stamp give you comfort vs the woman making the best decision for herself? This is so degrading to women.

Plenty of women regret their abortion

So what? Lots of people have lots of regrets in life. That's not a reason to make decisions illegal, or harmful, or life threatening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how we have these Catholics who are trying to convince us that it’s totally ok to just reject what the Church/Vatican says.

None of us believe that’s how it works.

I hate how some Catholics were duped into blindly following fallible men and reject Jesus’s actual teachings.

"Duped" does not completely explain it. They are taught (brainwashed) as small children into the rules of Catholicism. It's usually as adults that some catholics realize that they can live a good life without the rules and without fearing hell.

Others never buy the rules of the church or the teachings of Jesus, as laid out in the Bible, even as children. But those people are rare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am Catholic. None of these cases are based on What Jesus taught. Abortion was widely recommended by priests and catholic doctors during the potato famine in Ireland because kids weee starving to death and abortion was the right thing to do.

The rules around religion and birth control are made up by men who run the church, it’s not based in Jesus’ teachings.

The alt-right Catholics have been bamboozled, lied to, brain washed. This brain washing began centuries ago but our current situation started in the Ronald Regan era, it’s very well documented. Regan made abortion legal in California but when he ran for office a strategist explain if he ran on religious rights they could win. SO they picked prayer and abortion and the brain washing began.

I feel a little sorry for the Catholics being duped, my mom being one of them. She believes Democrats want abortions up to 6 weeks after a baby is born. You can even find video of Luz Cheney saying Democrats kill babies after they are born… and people believe it, it’s sad and pathetic.

Sounds like you are being duped by remaining part of the largest proudly anti-choice organization in the world. Your catechism states without a doubt that any and all abortion is a mortal sin. You can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince yourself otherwise but you yourself said you are member. Many of us would see you as sad and pathetic.

You don’t seem deeply educated in the history of Catholicism. It’s not a cult, you can question the insane changes the men of the church make especially when it’s not rooted in Jesus’s teachings,

I’m sorry you think Catholicism is a cult.

Please explain to me how one can question what the Vatican says.

Look up infallibility… the Pope is only infallible when he ex cathedra aka “speaks from the chair”, which he rarely does. Vatican 2 isn’t even infallible.

The Pope is one source of information… God who should speak to you through your soul or the Holy Spirit is your only real guide. Men are sinners, they are not perfect and power is a dangerous aphrodisiac. Don’t let them have power over you.

Sit quietly with your soul (not your ego) what does it say … follow that

If Vatican 2 isn’t infallible, then does that mean that if my soul tells me that the Jews killed Jesus, then it’s ok if that’s what I believe?

Has your soul told you that it was it your ego? Or was it your brain?

I’m position that my soul told me that.

*positing

You can’t posit about your soul. Your ego is in overdrive. BTW ego has nothing to do with being egotistical. Your deep need to prove somebody else wrong with debate strategies is getting in the way of your spiritual growth.

You said “sit quietly with your soul.” You also said “Vatican 2 is not infallible.” I am asking you whether that means that if I sit quietly with my soul and conclude that the Jews killed Jesus, is that ok?

I asked did your soul tell u that? You have not answered because the answer is no. You don’t like to hear things that don’t go the way you are trying to control them to go. Does trying to control others and the conversations you have with them weave throughout your whole life? (Ego) And how is that working for you

I posited a statement that is the logical extension of what you wrote. You refuse to engage and are instead going on about soul and ego in an extremely pejorative way. I don’t need to tell you a thing about what my soul says and it’s offensive that you think you know what is happening within my soul, my ego, or anything else.

Your “statement” is as logical as “what if pigs fly”. You can’t posit something that is impossible.

I think you need to go back to catholic 101. You didn’t even know the pope is not infallible nor is Vatican 2.

It’s hard to explain graduate level Catholicism when you don’t have the basic 101 information.

Best of luck with your spiritual growth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Try again, in English this time.

It was buried in the OP’s post but here is the question:

“How, as someone very religious, that’s who I am sort of seeking input from, how do you square the rise in stories like this with your religion if it tells you abortion is never allowed?”

I am not very religious but I was raised by an extremely doctrinaire Catholic.

The answer is: orthodox Catholics see fertility as a sort of religious sacrament and ritual. the Catholic doctrines on birth control and abortion are based on a notion of life as holy and the moment of conception as a way to see God. This carries over to the entire pregnancy. Conception, pregnancy and birth are worshipped in the story of Mary and the nativity. Fertility is a way to *see God manifest is humans* which is why more effective methods of birth control that use devices and medications are forbidden but the rythym method is OK because it physically “leaves room for God” because the sperm and egg are where they are supposed to be. NONE of this has anything to do with the actual woman or the actual fetus. It’s a religious rite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how we have these Catholics who are trying to convince us that it’s totally ok to just reject what the Church/Vatican says.

None of us believe that’s how it works.

I hate how some Catholics were duped into blindly following fallible men and reject Jesus’s actual teachings.

"Duped" does not completely explain it. They are taught (brainwashed) as small children into the rules of Catholicism. It's usually as adults that some catholics realize that they can live a good life without the rules and without fearing hell.

Others never buy the rules of the church or the teachings of Jesus, as laid out in the Bible, even as children. But those people are rare.

Not all Catholic communities teach dogma as the rule of law. Many teach it as a guide to a better you. Parables vs true stories

It seems the most vocal and insane are the ones that get all the attention though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Try again, in English this time.

Op here. It was straight forward, thanks. Not sure how you couldn’t or didn’t want to understand. Again, I am curious how you square the health complications and problems like babies of rape with minors or babies with no skulls in utero which could kill the mother, and these are being shown in the news with increasing frequency. So how do you square adherence to a strict dogmatic religion that doesn’t allow exceptions for the mother in these circumstances? Do these give you pause at all for how the outlawing of abortions have played out? Does the fact that women could die from a baby with no cranium impact your no-abortion in any circumstance view?

Seems like the suffering aspect is important to some. Maybe still trying to punish Eve.

Yes, you are right. To Catholics, the suffering for life is exactly what makes it holy. It’s actually a better and more potent religious ritual if the woman suffers. Just like the saints are martyrs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Try again, in English this time.

Op here. It was straight forward, thanks. Not sure how you couldn’t or didn’t want to understand. Again, I am curious how you square the health complications and problems like babies of rape with minors or babies with no skulls in utero which could kill the mother, and these are being shown in the news with increasing frequency. So how do you square adherence to a strict dogmatic religion that doesn’t allow exceptions for the mother in these circumstances? Do these give you pause at all for how the outlawing of abortions have played out? Does the fact that women could die from a baby with no cranium impact your no-abortion in any circumstance view?

Seems like the suffering aspect is important to some. Maybe still trying to punish Eve.

Yes, you are right. To Catholics, the suffering for life is exactly what makes it holy. It’s actually a better and more potent religious ritual if the woman suffers. Just like the saints are martyrs.

Modern day human sacrifices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am Catholic. None of these cases are based on What Jesus taught. Abortion was widely recommended by priests and catholic doctors during the potato famine in Ireland because kids weee starving to death and abortion was the right thing to do.

The rules around religion and birth control are made up by men who run the church, it’s not based in Jesus’ teachings.

The alt-right Catholics have been bamboozled, lied to, brain washed. This brain washing began centuries ago but our current situation started in the Ronald Regan era, it’s very well documented. Regan made abortion legal in California but when he ran for office a strategist explain if he ran on religious rights they could win. SO they picked prayer and abortion and the brain washing began.

I feel a little sorry for the Catholics being duped, my mom being one of them. She believes Democrats want abortions up to 6 weeks after a baby is born. You can even find video of Luz Cheney saying Democrats kill babies after they are born… and people believe it, it’s sad and pathetic.

Sounds like you are being duped by remaining part of the largest proudly anti-choice organization in the world. Your catechism states without a doubt that any and all abortion is a mortal sin. You can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince yourself otherwise but you yourself said you are member. Many of us would see you as sad and pathetic.

You don’t seem deeply educated in the history of Catholicism. It’s not a cult, you can question the insane changes the men of the church make especially when it’s not rooted in Jesus’s teachings,

I’m sorry you think Catholicism is a cult.

Please explain to me how one can question what the Vatican says.

Look up infallibility… the Pope is only infallible when he ex cathedra aka “speaks from the chair”, which he rarely does. Vatican 2 isn’t even infallible.

The Pope is one source of information… God who should speak to you through your soul or the Holy Spirit is your only real guide. Men are sinners, they are not perfect and power is a dangerous aphrodisiac. Don’t let them have power over you.

Sit quietly with your soul (not your ego) what does it say … follow that

If Vatican 2 isn’t infallible, then does that mean that if my soul tells me that the Jews killed Jesus, then it’s ok if that’s what I believe?

Has your soul told you that it was it your ego? Or was it your brain?

I’m position that my soul told me that.

*positing

You can’t posit about your soul. Your ego is in overdrive. BTW ego has nothing to do with being egotistical. Your deep need to prove somebody else wrong with debate strategies is getting in the way of your spiritual growth.

You said “sit quietly with your soul.” You also said “Vatican 2 is not infallible.” I am asking you whether that means that if I sit quietly with my soul and conclude that the Jews killed Jesus, is that ok?

I asked did your soul tell u that? You have not answered because the answer is no. You don’t like to hear things that don’t go the way you are trying to control them to go. Does trying to control others and the conversations you have with them weave throughout your whole life? (Ego) And how is that working for you

I posited a statement that is the logical extension of what you wrote. You refuse to engage and are instead going on about soul and ego in an extremely pejorative way. I don’t need to tell you a thing about what my soul says and it’s offensive that you think you know what is happening within my soul, my ego, or anything else.

Your “statement” is as logical as “what if pigs fly”. You can’t posit something that is impossible.

I think you need to go back to catholic 101. You didn’t even know the pope is not infallible nor is Vatican 2.

It’s hard to explain graduate level Catholicism when you don’t have the basic 101 information.

Best of luck with your spiritual growth.

How is my statement impossible?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am Catholic. None of these cases are based on What Jesus taught. Abortion was widely recommended by priests and catholic doctors during the potato famine in Ireland because kids weee starving to death and abortion was the right thing to do.

The rules around religion and birth control are made up by men who run the church, it’s not based in Jesus’ teachings.

The alt-right Catholics have been bamboozled, lied to, brain washed. This brain washing began centuries ago but our current situation started in the Ronald Regan era, it’s very well documented. Regan made abortion legal in California but when he ran for office a strategist explain if he ran on religious rights they could win. SO they picked prayer and abortion and the brain washing began.

I feel a little sorry for the Catholics being duped, my mom being one of them. She believes Democrats want abortions up to 6 weeks after a baby is born. You can even find video of Luz Cheney saying Democrats kill babies after they are born… and people believe it, it’s sad and pathetic.

Sounds like you are being duped by remaining part of the largest proudly anti-choice organization in the world. Your catechism states without a doubt that any and all abortion is a mortal sin. You can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince yourself otherwise but you yourself said you are member. Many of us would see you as sad and pathetic.

You don’t seem deeply educated in the history of Catholicism. It’s not a cult, you can question the insane changes the men of the church make especially when it’s not rooted in Jesus’s teachings,

I’m sorry you think Catholicism is a cult.

Please explain to me how one can question what the Vatican says.

Look up infallibility… the Pope is only infallible when he ex cathedra aka “speaks from the chair”, which he rarely does. Vatican 2 isn’t even infallible.

The Pope is one source of information… God who should speak to you through your soul or the Holy Spirit is your only real guide. Men are sinners, they are not perfect and power is a dangerous aphrodisiac. Don’t let them have power over you.

Sit quietly with your soul (not your ego) what does it say … follow that

If Vatican 2 isn’t infallible, then does that mean that if my soul tells me that the Jews killed Jesus, then it’s ok if that’s what I believe?

Has your soul told you that it was it your ego? Or was it your brain?

what if my soul tells me that women should be able to control their own bodies?

[Anonymous]

Also, please stop talking about my spiritual growth. As I said earlier, it’s extremely condescending.