Ramifications from Religious roots of abortion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. I don’t even know why I posted this here. I’m trying to hold a rational conversation on irrational beliefs. I’m talking to people indoctrinated since birth and who’s brain synapses have memories etched, since they were young children most probably, to believe as truth the mystical teachings of the church. I knew the answer the whole time. No matter what, you’ll double down on your beliefs in the face of new evidence. No matter how many women have to carry non-viable kids to term, and potentially suffer catastrophic healthy consequences, that’s okay with you because nothing will contradict your immutable beliefs. The only light on the horizon is that so many people are leaving the church and like Greek mythology, over time your system will be washed away and viewed through academic study only and not as something that has any influence on shaping policy or any influence at all.

Young people don’t go to church. Why would they? It’s absurd. This entire conversation is absurd. You quoting a passage from the Bible to me is absurd if it’s meant to explain anything. It’s absurd because it’s illogical. The fact that the Bible has any impact on what is a health decision is absurd.

OP, you can’t reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place. Faith is the opposite of reason. Forced birthers see the bodies and are convinced it’s because God’s will for them to suffer because they sinned (and they would never be so cursed because they do x, y, and z, or if they are it’s not punishment but just God’s test for them).

While I’m “pro choice” (I think both the terms “pro choice” and “pro life” are stupid), I think this description is overly anti Christian. “Pro life” Christians don’t oppose abortion because they want to punish women. They oppose abortion because they believe that life begins at conception. At least that’s what they think they believe. Of course their are problems with this. One is their (for the most part) lack of concern with babies after birth and secondly, the proposition that human life begins at conception contradicts the Bible (when read in the original Hebrew).
Yes, punishing women is a twisted religious objective.

All organized religion these days is just people reinterpreting what they thought someone wrote 2000 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm pro birth. I think there needs to be a system like in Israel, where you need permission from 3 doctors to have an abortion.

This is no longer the case in Israel: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/06/28/israel-abortion-law-changes-roe/

Well that is a pity. I think it was a s a good system

Read again; they haven’t done away with the abortion tribunal, although it isn’t composed of 3 doctors. Why does that rubber stamp give you comfort vs the woman making the best decision for herself? This is so degrading to women.

Plenty of women regret their abortion

So what? Lots of people have lots of regrets in life. That's not a reason to make decisions illegal, or harmful, or life threatening.

Exactly. Many people regret their marriages, shall we make marriage illegal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s remember that the Bible was written by human beings, men at that. And has been translated many times. It is not to be taken literally as the Word of God ( yes I’m a Christian)

The Catholic Church teaches otherwise.

You mean some of the men of the Catholic Church teach otherwise.

Some think Noah was real, some think it’s a parable. Same with Adam and Eve.[/quote]

That's not true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s remember that the Bible was written by human beings, men at that. And has been translated many times. It is not to be taken literally as the Word of God ( yes I’m a Christian)

The Catholic Church teaches otherwise.

Not so. Absolutely not so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. I don’t even know why I posted this here. I’m trying to hold a rational conversation on irrational beliefs. I’m talking to people indoctrinated since birth and who’s brain synapses have memories etched, since they were young children most probably, to believe as truth the mystical teachings of the church. I knew the answer the whole time. No matter what, you’ll double down on your beliefs in the face of new evidence. No matter how many women have to carry non-viable kids to term, and potentially suffer catastrophic healthy consequences, that’s okay with you because nothing will contradict your immutable beliefs. The only light on the horizon is that so many people are leaving the church and like Greek mythology, over time your system will be washed away and viewed through academic study only and not as something that has any influence on shaping policy or any influence at all.

Young people don’t go to church. Why would they? It’s absurd. This entire conversation is absurd. You quoting a passage from the Bible to me is absurd if it’s meant to explain anything. It’s absurd because it’s illogical. The fact that the Bible has any impact on what is a health decision is absurd.

OP, you can’t reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place. Faith is the opposite of reason. Forced birthers see the bodies and are convinced it’s because God’s will for them to suffer because they sinned (and they would never be so cursed because they do x, y, and z, or if they are it’s not punishment but just God’s test for them).

While I’m “pro choice” (I think both the terms “pro choice” and “pro life” are stupid), I think this description is overly anti Christian. “Pro life” Christians don’t oppose abortion because they want to punish women. They oppose abortion because they believe that life begins at conception. At least that’s what they think they believe. Of course their are problems with this. One is their (for the most part) lack of concern with babies after birth and secondly, the proposition that human life begins at conception contradicts the Bible (when read in the original Hebrew).
Yes, punishing women is a twisted religious objective.

All organized religion these days is just people reinterpreting what they thought someone wrote 2000 years ago.

Yup.

Millennial game of telephone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am Catholic. None of these cases are based on What Jesus taught. Abortion was widely recommended by priests and catholic doctors during the potato famine in Ireland because kids weee starving to death and abortion was the right thing to do.

The rules around religion and birth control are made up by men who run the church, it’s not based in Jesus’ teachings.

The alt-right Catholics have been bamboozled, lied to, brain washed. This brain washing began centuries ago but our current situation started in the Ronald Regan era, it’s very well documented. Regan made abortion legal in California but when he ran for office a strategist explain if he ran on religious rights they could win. SO they picked prayer and abortion and the brain washing began.

I feel a little sorry for the Catholics being duped, my mom being one of them. She believes Democrats want abortions up to 6 weeks after a baby is born. You can even find video of Luz Cheney saying Democrats kill babies after they are born… and people believe it, it’s sad and pathetic.

Sounds like you are being duped by remaining part of the largest proudly anti-choice organization in the world. Your catechism states without a doubt that any and all abortion is a mortal sin. You can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince yourself otherwise but you yourself said you are member. Many of us would see you as sad and pathetic.

You don’t seem deeply educated in the history of Catholicism. It’s not a cult, you can question the insane changes the men of the church make especially when it’s not rooted in Jesus’s teachings,

I’m sorry you think Catholicism is a cult.

Please explain to me how one can question what the Vatican says.

Look up infallibility… the Pope is only infallible when he ex cathedra aka “speaks from the chair”, which he rarely does. Vatican 2 isn’t even infallible.

The Pope is one source of information… God who should speak to you through your soul or the Holy Spirit is your only real guide. Men are sinners, they are not perfect and power is a dangerous aphrodisiac. Don’t let them have power over you.

Sit quietly with your soul (not your ego) what does it say … follow that

If Vatican 2 isn’t infallible, then does that mean that if my soul tells me that the Jews killed Jesus, then it’s ok if that’s what I believe?

Has your soul told you that it was it your ego? Or was it your brain?

what if my soul tells me that women should be able to control their own bodies?

Then you are in agreement. Don't confuse how the Church guides one to make personal moral judgments with what some politicians are doing with laws (most of whom are not Catholic Btw). Many, if not most, US Catholics are politically pro choice, btw. The government has no business getting in between a woman and her doctor or a woman and her spiritual leaders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op here. I don’t even know why I posted this here. I’m trying to hold a rational conversation on irrational beliefs. I’m talking to people indoctrinated since birth and who’s brain synapses have memories etched, since they were young children most probably, to believe as truth the mystical teachings of the church. I knew the answer the whole time. No matter what, you’ll double down on your beliefs in the face of new evidence. No matter how many women have to carry non-viable kids to term, and potentially suffer catastrophic healthy consequences, that’s okay with you because nothing will contradict your immutable beliefs. The only light on the horizon is that so many people are leaving the church and like Greek mythology, over time your system will be washed away and viewed through academic study only and not as something that has any influence on shaping policy or any influence at all.

Young people don’t go to church. Why would they? It’s absurd. This entire conversation is absurd. You quoting a passage from the Bible to me is absurd if it’s meant to explain anything. It’s absurd because it’s illogical. The fact that the Bible has any impact on what is a health decision is absurd.

The thread is absurd because you set a straw man argument and then shot it down. Some poster are trying to show you that you have a limited understanding of the religions you are railing against. You make stuff up about them, are told you are wrong in your premise, and then try to get people to defend the things they just told you they don't believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Try again, in English this time.

It was buried in the OP’s post but here is the question:

“How, as someone very religious, that’s who I am sort of seeking input from, how do you square the rise in stories like this with your religion if it tells you abortion is never allowed?”

I am not very religious but I was raised by an extremely doctrinaire Catholic.

The answer is: orthodox Catholics see fertility as a sort of religious sacrament and ritual. the Catholic doctrines on birth control and abortion are based on a notion of life as holy and the moment of conception as a way to see God. This carries over to the entire pregnancy. Conception, pregnancy and birth are worshipped in the story of Mary and the nativity. Fertility is a way to *see God manifest is humans* which is why more effective methods of birth control that use devices and medications are forbidden but the rythym method is OK because it physically “leaves room for God” because the sperm and egg are where they are supposed to be. NONE of this has anything to do with the actual woman or the actual fetus. It’s a religious rite.

This is a good explanation.. but to add history.

In the early Roman Catholic church, abortion was permitted up until ensoulment for male fetuses in the first 40 days of pregnancy and for female fetuses in the first 80-90 days. Not until 1588 did Pope Sixtus V declare all abortion murder. But he also allowed Bishops to give dispensation (permission) for abortions rather freely.

In 1591 the new Pope Gregory XIV Reversed the decision declaring abortion a sin if it took place after ensoulment, which he determined took place 166 days.

Pope Pius IX reversed the decision yet again in 1869 and made abortion after conception a sin.

To put things in perspective Sixtus V was not infallible and he believed adulatory should be punishable with the death penalty. Obviously the men of the church did not give him support on that so it never became Catholic law”.

Further, Pius IX gave as the reason that the debate within the Church about when ensoulment occurs shows that man cannot answer this and so the "morally safest" position would be to assume it occurs at conception, just in case. So it's not even a firm belief in the Church, it is a moral hedge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. I don’t even know why I posted this here. I’m trying to hold a rational conversation on irrational beliefs. I’m talking to people indoctrinated since birth and who’s brain synapses have memories etched, since they were young children most probably, to believe as truth the mystical teachings of the church. I knew the answer the whole time. No matter what, you’ll double down on your beliefs in the face of new evidence. No matter how many women have to carry non-viable kids to term, and potentially suffer catastrophic healthy consequences, that’s okay with you because nothing will contradict your immutable beliefs. The only light on the horizon is that so many people are leaving the church and like Greek mythology, over time your system will be washed away and viewed through academic study only and not as something that has any influence on shaping policy or any influence at all.

Young people don’t go to church. Why would they? It’s absurd. This entire conversation is absurd. You quoting a passage from the Bible to me is absurd if it’s meant to explain anything. It’s absurd because it’s illogical. The fact that the Bible has any impact on what is a health decision is absurd.

The thread is absurd because you set a straw man argument and then shot it down. Some poster are trying to show you that you have a limited understanding of the religions you are railing against. You make stuff up about them, are told you are wrong in your premise, and then try to get people to defend the things they just told you they don't believe.

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Try again, in English this time.

It was buried in the OP’s post but here is the question:

“How, as someone very religious, that’s who I am sort of seeking input from, how do you square the rise in stories like this with your religion if it tells you abortion is never allowed?”

I am not very religious but I was raised by an extremely doctrinaire Catholic.

The answer is: orthodox Catholics see fertility as a sort of religious sacrament and ritual. the Catholic doctrines on birth control and abortion are based on a notion of life as holy and the moment of conception as a way to see God. This carries over to the entire pregnancy. Conception, pregnancy and birth are worshipped in the story of Mary and the nativity. Fertility is a way to *see God manifest is humans* which is why more effective methods of birth control that use devices and medications are forbidden but the rythym method is OK because it physically “leaves room for God” because the sperm and egg are where they are supposed to be. NONE of this has anything to do with the actual woman or the actual fetus. It’s a religious rite.

This is a good explanation.. but to add history.

In the early Roman Catholic church, abortion was permitted up until ensoulment for male fetuses in the first 40 days of pregnancy and for female fetuses in the first 80-90 days. Not until 1588 did Pope Sixtus V declare all abortion murder. But he also allowed Bishops to give dispensation (permission) for abortions rather freely.

In 1591 the new Pope Gregory XIV Reversed the decision declaring abortion a sin if it took place after ensoulment, which he determined took place 166 days.

Pope Pius IX reversed the decision yet again in 1869 and made abortion after conception a sin.

To put things in perspective Sixtus V was not infallible and he believed adulatory should be punishable with the death penalty. Obviously the men of the church did not give him support on that so it never became Catholic law”.

Further, Pius IX gave as the reason that the debate within the Church about when ensoulment occurs shows that man cannot answer this and so the "morally safest" position would be to assume it occurs at conception, just in case. So it's not even a firm belief in the Church, it is a moral hedge.

What is their position on forcing their beliefs on others?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm pro birth. I think there needs to be a system like in Israel, where you need permission from 3 doctors to have an abortion.

This is no longer the case in Israel: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/06/28/israel-abortion-law-changes-roe/

Well that is a pity. I think it was a s a good system

Read again; they haven’t done away with the abortion tribunal, although it isn’t composed of 3 doctors. Why does that rubber stamp give you comfort vs the woman making the best decision for herself? This is so degrading to women.

Plenty of women regret their abortion

So what? Lots of people have lots of regrets in life. That's not a reason to make decisions illegal, or harmful, or life threatening.

Exactly. Many people regret their marriages, shall we make marriage illegal?

Shall we make divorce illiegal?