Ramifications from Religious roots of abortion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really hope this doesn’t get erased. It’s not that controversial that it should be pulled, Jeff.

But mainly I was reading this thread: https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1073797.page

And because the main genesis of this issue and the one with the recent 10 year old girl who was almost forced to have that rape baby are religious in origin. I mean the entire pro life movement is essentially Christian in origin. That’s indisputable. How do you feel about these stories in states that have banned or severely curtailed abortion.

This child had no chance of living in this recent case in Louisiana. No chance. And the mother is forced to carry to term which causes health risks for her. How, as someone very religious, that’s who I am sort of seeking input from, how do you square the rise in stories like this with your religion if it tells you abortion is never allowed?

Does it bother you or is it just sort of God’s will or fate? I would like to learn how you can both be okay and not okay with this. I don’t want to enflame tensions, but merely that we are seeing a rise in these types of stories.

Are implying that there is a parallel with Mary being a child impregnated by an older man?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Western religions all have a history of being patriarchal and othering women, to varying extents. It is unsurprising that adherents to these religions see women as innately sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

Folk religions and those that are more matriarchal have tended to have a softer view of women in general, including womens fertility.

The fact is that as long as there have been humans, there have been means derived to terminate and control pregnancies. Folk remedies were common. The genesis of the abortion struggle in the US began when the AMA (mostly men) took issue with the fact that women sought and got abortions outside of the medical establishment. This is an establishment that continues to “other” women, discount our pain and experiences, and otherwise seeks to disempower people when it comes to their own health and healing.

Judaism does not see women as inherently sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

This is simply not true. There are plenty of Orthodox Jews who would and do severely limit a woman's right to choose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Try again, in English this time.

It was buried in the OP’s post but here is the question:

“How, as someone very religious, that’s who I am sort of seeking input from, how do you square the rise in stories like this with your religion if it tells you abortion is never allowed?”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Western religions all have a history of being patriarchal and othering women, to varying extents. It is unsurprising that adherents to these religions see women as innately sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

Folk religions and those that are more matriarchal have tended to have a softer view of women in general, including womens fertility.

The fact is that as long as there have been humans, there have been means derived to terminate and control pregnancies. Folk remedies were common. The genesis of the abortion struggle in the US began when the AMA (mostly men) took issue with the fact that women sought and got abortions outside of the medical establishment. This is an establishment that continues to “other” women, discount our pain and experiences, and otherwise seeks to disempower people when it comes to their own health and healing.

Why are you singling out Western religions? Non-Western religions aren’t exactly egalitarian.

Because we are in the west? And the vast majority of religion practiced in the west are…western?

Not anymore. United States isn't majority Christian.

Easy enough to tell . There are way more mosques than churches opening every year

You are wrong. Christianity is still the majority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Western religions all have a history of being patriarchal and othering women, to varying extents. It is unsurprising that adherents to these religions see women as innately sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

Folk religions and those that are more matriarchal have tended to have a softer view of women in general, including womens fertility.

The fact is that as long as there have been humans, there have been means derived to terminate and control pregnancies. Folk remedies were common. The genesis of the abortion struggle in the US began when the AMA (mostly men) took issue with the fact that women sought and got abortions outside of the medical establishment. This is an establishment that continues to “other” women, discount our pain and experiences, and otherwise seeks to disempower people when it comes to their own health and healing.

Judaism does not see women as inherently sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

This is simply not true. There are plenty of Orthodox Jews who would and do severely limit a woman's right to choose.

I’ve been referring to non Orthodox Judaism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Western religions all have a history of being patriarchal and othering women, to varying extents. It is unsurprising that adherents to these religions see women as innately sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

Folk religions and those that are more matriarchal have tended to have a softer view of women in general, including womens fertility.

The fact is that as long as there have been humans, there have been means derived to terminate and control pregnancies. Folk remedies were common. The genesis of the abortion struggle in the US began when the AMA (mostly men) took issue with the fact that women sought and got abortions outside of the medical establishment. This is an establishment that continues to “other” women, discount our pain and experiences, and otherwise seeks to disempower people when it comes to their own health and healing.

Judaism does not see women as inherently sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

This is simply not true. There are plenty of Orthodox Jews who would and do severely limit a woman's right to choose.

I’ve been referring to non Orthodox Judaism.

Well, you should have made that clear than. There are many, many Christian sects that are also vehemently pro-choice as well. How about you don't group us all together, and we won't do that to you, ok?

It's high time that Jewish folks stop attacking Christians on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No one can comment on this? Crickets?

I think it is crickets because there aren't many fundamentalists religious on here. Even most Catholics are politically pro-Choice except for the Paulists. And even in the Catholic Church abortion was not always absolutely not allowed (though this is hotly debated within the Church and no doubt someone will post here to say I'm wrong -- but the history is there, like it or not). As you can see this has never been a clear issue, which is why it should not be treated as such at law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Western religions all have a history of being patriarchal and othering women, to varying extents. It is unsurprising that adherents to these religions see women as innately sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

Folk religions and those that are more matriarchal have tended to have a softer view of women in general, including womens fertility.

The fact is that as long as there have been humans, there have been means derived to terminate and control pregnancies. Folk remedies were common. The genesis of the abortion struggle in the US began when the AMA (mostly men) took issue with the fact that women sought and got abortions outside of the medical establishment. This is an establishment that continues to “other” women, discount our pain and experiences, and otherwise seeks to disempower people when it comes to their own health and healing.

Judaism does not see women as inherently sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

This is simply not true. There are plenty of Orthodox Jews who would and do severely limit a woman's right to choose.

I’ve been referring to non Orthodox Judaism.

Well, you should have made that clear than. There are many, many Christian sects that are also vehemently pro-choice as well. How about you don't group us all together, and we won't do that to you, ok?

It's high time that Jewish folks stop attacking Christians on DCUM.

Give me an example of when that has happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one can comment on this? Crickets?

I think it is crickets because there aren't many fundamentalists religious on here. Even most Catholics are politically pro-Choice except for the Paulists. And even in the Catholic Church abortion was not always absolutely not allowed (though this is hotly debated within the Church and no doubt someone will post here to say I'm wrong -- but the history is there, like it or not). As you can see this has never been a clear issue, which is why it should not be treated as such at law.

It’s certainly been a clear issue for quite a while, when it comes to Church policy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Western religions all have a history of being patriarchal and othering women, to varying extents. It is unsurprising that adherents to these religions see women as innately sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

Folk religions and those that are more matriarchal have tended to have a softer view of women in general, including womens fertility.

The fact is that as long as there have been humans, there have been means derived to terminate and control pregnancies. Folk remedies were common. The genesis of the abortion struggle in the US began when the AMA (mostly men) took issue with the fact that women sought and got abortions outside of the medical establishment. This is an establishment that continues to “other” women, discount our pain and experiences, and otherwise seeks to disempower people when it comes to their own health and healing.

Judaism does not see women as inherently sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

This is simply not true. There are plenty of Orthodox Jews who would and do severely limit a woman's right to choose.

I’ve been referring to non Orthodox Judaism.

Well, you should have made that clear than. There are many, many Christian sects that are also vehemently pro-choice as well. How about you don't group us all together, and we won't do that to you, ok?

It's high time that Jewish folks stop attacking Christians on DCUM.

Give me an example of when that has happened.

LOL, it just did, on this very thread, but this very poster, and when called out on it she back tracked. "Oh, I wasn't talking about Orthodox Judaism!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm pro birth. I think there needs to be a system like in Israel, where you need permission from 3 doctors to have an abortion.

This is no longer the case in Israel: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/06/28/israel-abortion-law-changes-roe/

Well that is a pity. I think it was a s a good system

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Try again, in English this time.

Op here. It was straight forward, thanks. Not sure how you couldn’t or didn’t want to understand. Again, I am curious how you square the health complications and problems like babies of rape with minors or babies with no skulls in utero which could kill the mother, and these are being shown in the news with increasing frequency. So how do you square adherence to a strict dogmatic religion that doesn’t allow exceptions for the mother in these circumstances? Do these give you pause at all for how the outlawing of abortions have played out? Does the fact that women could die from a baby with no cranium impact your no-abortion in any circumstance view?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Western religions all have a history of being patriarchal and othering women, to varying extents. It is unsurprising that adherents to these religions see women as innately sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

Folk religions and those that are more matriarchal have tended to have a softer view of women in general, including womens fertility.

The fact is that as long as there have been humans, there have been means derived to terminate and control pregnancies. Folk remedies were common. The genesis of the abortion struggle in the US began when the AMA (mostly men) took issue with the fact that women sought and got abortions outside of the medical establishment. This is an establishment that continues to “other” women, discount our pain and experiences, and otherwise seeks to disempower people when it comes to their own health and healing.

Judaism does not see women as inherently sinful and their bodies/sexuality/fertility as something to be controlled and managed.

This is simply not true. There are plenty of Orthodox Jews who would and do severely limit a woman's right to choose.

I’ve been referring to non Orthodox Judaism.

Well, you should have made that clear than. There are many, many Christian sects that are also vehemently pro-choice as well. How about you don't group us all together, and we won't do that to you, ok?

It's high time that Jewish folks stop attacking Christians on DCUM.

Give me an example of when that has happened.

LOL, it just did, on this very thread, but this very poster, and when called out on it she back tracked. "Oh, I wasn't talking about Orthodox Judaism!"

Huh? No — I just provided more specificity. How is explaining that non-Orthodox Judaism is egalitarian an attack on Christianity?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm pro birth. I think there needs to be a system like in Israel, where you need permission from 3 doctors to have an abortion.

This is no longer the case in Israel: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/06/28/israel-abortion-law-changes-roe/

Well that is a pity. I think it was a s a good system

I think some people should be put in front of a special tribunal before they are allowed to breed.

[Anonymous]

I think the ramification is going to be a massive backlash against any faith associated with the forced birth cause. Once the bodies start piling up, it’s going to be very hard to justify participation in a faith that is bankrolling political moves that cause massive suffering, even if you personally don’t believe in it. If you are putting money in the pot, and that money is being spent on pushing a forced birth agenda, you are an active participant in it and your personal opinions are irrelevant.