Do women do more or just complain more?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I mean, that’s what is happening. 60% of college students are now female. That’s now spilling over into the workforce, and the number of women in senior managerial roles is increasing every year. Male dominated industries are being taken over by women; there are now more women in medical school than men, which will translate to more female doctors. We almost had a female president and now have a female Vice President.

And, men like you are scared. I hear men complain all the time how none of those women deserve it, it’s all just affirmative action, or that the educational system is biased against males and that’s why they’re falling behind, or whatever. When maybe it’s just that women are better adapted to those roles and men can’t keep up.

This is a good point. Through most of history, women were told they couldn't be doctors/lawyers/politicians/scientists/writers/artists/chefs because they were inherently less capable or that aspects of their nature made them unsuited to the demands of the role. Now things are changing such that women and girls seem better suited to modern workplaces and educational approaches, and it's not fair and biased. FWIW, I think there is value in inherently masculine traits (which can be found in both men and women), but the whining is quite telling. I'm reading a book right now about a female surgeon in 1914, and the other characters keep talking about how women are too emotional to be surgeons. And now we know that medical outcomes are better when doctors are more empathetic to their patients.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I mean, that’s what is happening. 60% of college students are now female. That’s now spilling over into the workforce, and the number of women in senior managerial roles is increasing every year. Male dominated industries are being taken over by women; there are now more women in medical school than men, which will translate to more female doctors. We almost had a female president and now have a female Vice President.

And, men like you are scared. I hear men complain all the time how none of those women deserve it, it’s all just affirmative action, or that the educational system is biased against males and that’s why they’re falling behind, or whatever. When maybe it’s just that women are better adapted to those roles and men can’t keep up.

This is a good point. Through most of history, women were told they couldn't be doctors/lawyers/politicians/scientists/writers/artists/chefs because they were inherently less capable or that aspects of their nature made them unsuited to the demands of the role. Now things are changing such that women and girls seem better suited to modern workplaces and educational approaches, and it's not fair and biased. FWIW, I think there is value in inherently masculine traits (which can be found in both men and women), but the whining is quite telling. I'm reading a book right now about a female surgeon in 1914, and the other characters keep talking about how women are too emotional to be surgeons. And now we know that medical outcomes are better when doctors are more empathetic to their patients.

Not only are women outnumbering men in college and in fields like medicine, they’re also doing very well in trades. In the last two years, I’ve hired very competent female electricians, plumbers and movers. The growing number of single female homeowners has supported this growth.

Men are at a crossroads. They can sit around watching porn, playing video games, and getting angry, or they can level up and work alongside us. Society isn’t going back the way it was, however much they might like it to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: So many articles and threads and discussion of women and the unseen mental load and how in most households there is an inequitable sharing of duties. Is this true or are women just more vocal in general, and to some extent more biologically programmed to vocalize concern and to worry more? I guarantee men do tons of things around the house women don’t, but they just don’t talk about it. Men suffer in silence more. Rates of suicide are higher in men for this reason. They internalize a lot. Is this the reason you may not hear men complaining their wife didn’t fix the internet or carry the trash out? I get that a lot of women handle a lot in a marriage. They do. But do men simply do the same, but grin and bear it more quietly?

Are you here complaining about women complaining?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I mean, that’s what is happening. 60% of college students are now female. That’s now spilling over into the workforce, and the number of women in senior managerial roles is increasing every year. Male dominated industries are being taken over by women; there are now more women in medical school than men, which will translate to more female doctors. We almost had a female president and now have a female Vice President.

And, men like you are scared. I hear men complain all the time how none of those women deserve it, it’s all just affirmative action, or that the educational system is biased against males and that’s why they’re falling behind, or whatever. When maybe it’s just that women are better adapted to those roles and men can’t keep up.

This is a good point. Through most of history, women were told they couldn't be doctors/lawyers/politicians/scientists/writers/artists/chefs because they were inherently less capable or that aspects of their nature made them unsuited to the demands of the role. Now things are changing such that women and girls seem better suited to modern workplaces and educational approaches, and it's not fair and biased. FWIW, I think there is value in inherently masculine traits (which can be found in both men and women), but the whining is quite telling. I'm reading a book right now about a female surgeon in 1914, and the other characters keep talking about how women are too emotional to be surgeons. And now we know that medical outcomes are better when doctors are more empathetic to their patients.

Not only are women outnumbering men in college and in fields like medicine, they’re also doing very well in trades. In the last two years, I’ve hired very competent female electricians, plumbers and movers. The growing number of single female homeowners has supported this growth.

Men are at a crossroads. They can sit around watching porn, playing video games, and getting angry, or they can level up and work alongside us. Society isn’t going back the way it was, however much they might like it to.

Reminds me of this article from the WSJ about men not going to college: https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-university-fall-higher-education-men-women-enrollment-admissions-back-to-school-11630948233

Ms. Gereghty said she found that girls more closely attended to their college applications than boys, for instance making sure transcripts are delivered. Baylor created a “males and moms communication campaign” a few years ago to keep high-school boys on track, she said.

These boys need their mommies to make sure their college applications are complete, and yet we're somehow supposed to believe they are the fundamentally more capable gender?

And this one from WaPo about women going into the trades: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/04/21/americas-manliest-industries-are-all-competing-for-women/

The opioid epidemic, meanwhile, has zapped some of the male workforce because men are more likely than women to both use and overdose on illicit drugs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I mean, that’s what is happening. 60% of college students are now female. That’s now spilling over into the workforce, and the number of women in senior managerial roles is increasing every year. Male dominated industries are being taken over by women; there are now more women in medical school than men, which will translate to more female doctors. We almost had a female president and now have a female Vice President.

And, men like you are scared. I hear men complain all the time how none of those women deserve it, it’s all just affirmative action, or that the educational system is biased against males and that’s why they’re falling behind, or whatever. When maybe it’s just that women are better adapted to those roles and men can’t keep up.

This is a good point. Through most of history, women were told they couldn't be doctors/lawyers/politicians/scientists/writers/artists/chefs because they were inherently less capable or that aspects of their nature made them unsuited to the demands of the role. Now things are changing such that women and girls seem better suited to modern workplaces and educational approaches, and it's not fair and biased. FWIW, I think there is value in inherently masculine traits (which can be found in both men and women), but the whining is quite telling. I'm reading a book right now about a female surgeon in 1914, and the other characters keep talking about how women are too emotional to be surgeons. And now we know that medical outcomes are better when doctors are more empathetic to their patients.

Not only are women outnumbering men in college and in fields like medicine, they’re also doing very well in trades. In the last two years, I’ve hired very competent female electricians, plumbers and movers. The growing number of single female homeowners has supported this growth.

Men are at a crossroads. They can sit around watching porn, playing video games, and getting angry, or they can level up and work alongside us. Society isn’t going back the way it was, however much they might like it to.

Reminds me of this article from the WSJ about men not going to college: https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-university-fall-higher-education-men-women-enrollment-admissions-back-to-school-11630948233

Ms. Gereghty said she found that girls more closely attended to their college applications than boys, for instance making sure transcripts are delivered. Baylor created a “males and moms communication campaign” a few years ago to keep high-school boys on track, she said.

These boys need their mommies to make sure their college applications are complete, and yet we're somehow supposed to believe they are the fundamentally more capable gender?

And this one from WaPo about women going into the trades: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/04/21/americas-manliest-industries-are-all-competing-for-women/

The opioid epidemic, meanwhile, has zapped some of the male workforce because men are more likely than women to both use and overdose on illicit drugs.

My brother was one of the “males and mommies” students. My mom and sister did his applications and essays for him. Meanwhile sis and I did our applications 100% solo, parents wouldn’t help us at all.

Brother got kicked out of two schools and never finished. Now works as a bartender in his mid30s. I own a company, and sis became a doctor despite being actively discourage by our parents.

I see the same thing play out over and over among my friends with teenage/college age boys. Daughters are held to a high standard and not helped out at all, meanwhile they’re paying for apartments for their late teens/early 20s sons who don’t work or go to school and just get high/drink all day. I’ve encouraged them to require their sons get vasectomies if they’re going to support them, imagine bringing a child into that mess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If someone in your household has to make preparations and decide whether or not to make a list of things that need to be done when they go out of town, that person is doing more.

If someone can go out of town, and no one really notices their absence, that person is doing less (day to day).

This is a very straightforward way of putting it and it is SO telling.

My DH regularly has to travel last minute for work and I just roll with it. It can be inconvenient in some ways because he does do stuff around the house and with the kids and it means we can't divide and conquer on those busy days where someone has to make dinner and one or more kids have an activity, for instance. But it's also actually easier in many ways. I find that things move more smoothly and there is less conflict. I can get on my schedule and get through my list and I actually tend to have more energy because I am not investing energy into planning couple time with DH. I go to bed earlier, often sleep better, and don't have to negotiate my schedule with his.

Meanwhile, my DH begged me not to take a job with 10% travel requirements because when I have travelled in the past he has absolutely lost it by Day 2. Even basic stuff like getting kids to school on time with appropriate items is challenging for him. The house is instantly a wreck and the kids are in bad moods because they are off schedule and are often overtired or hungry because he doesn't know how to make mealtimes or bedtimes happen (he does this thing where he'll say "ok, time for bed" like 45 minutes after bedtime, and then gets annoyed when the kids don't instantly get into bed, but in fact put up a fight because they are too tired). If I give him a schedule of stuff that needs to happen, he immediately gets overwhelmed, even if it's just something like bringing snack to school or picking one kid up from an activity at a different time instead of from school with the others.

Be both work and I would LOVE a job where I could travel a bit more because I really miss that aspect of my pre-kid life, but we've found that he just does not have the skills or focus to keep our home life humming while I'm away. But to me it's second nature. I love him, but I definitely think I'm more essential to making our lives work than he is. He does make more than me but only like 15% more, nothing major. And I would make more if I could take the kind of job I'd like to take.

There are days when I feel like men are kind of superfluous to society because I know so many marriages like this. In some the men make a lot more money or the women are SAHMs and I get that changes the equation. But I know tons of professional women who are also amazing house managers and parents and their husbands are nice people but simply not on that level at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: So many articles and threads and discussion of women and the unseen mental load and how in most households there is an inequitable sharing of duties. Is this true or are women just more vocal in general, and to some extent more biologically programmed to vocalize concern and to worry more? I guarantee men do tons of things around the house women don’t, but they just don’t talk about it. Men suffer in silence more. Rates of suicide are higher in men for this reason. They internalize a lot. Is this the reason you may not hear men complaining their wife didn’t fix the internet or carry the trash out? I get that a lot of women handle a lot in a marriage. They do. But do men simply do the same, but grin and bear it more quietly?

They do not do the same. Tell me, who does all the meal planning, the shopping, the cooking, the daily cleaning, the making sure people are in the right place at the right time, the doctor’s appointment scheduling, the taking to the doctor, the interface with schools, the activity and play date planning, the date night planning, the baby sitter identification and hiring and coordinating…the vacation planning, booking, coordinating, the pet sitter, the house and car and yard maintenance planning and coordinating…the taxes, the investments, the getting of birthday presents and thank you notes…the mental health of the entire family? In most families, that is not DH, who does only a fraction of this work. 80% is the wife. So no. Equity is not there.

The problem with saying women do more and leaving it at that is that doesn't account for how much of what they do is actually necessary and how much is stuff they tell themselves they have to do but don't need to. I'll concede women tend to do more of the essentials, but the difference is probably not nearly enough to justify the complaining and criticisim in many relationships. For the record, of the list above, I (DH) do meals 1 day per week, all the daily cleaning, a lot of scheduling and driving of kids, about 1/3 of doctor's appointments (but mostly because DW usually insists on being the one to go), about 1/2 of the school interaction (maybe more), all the babysitter hiring and managing, all the maintenance for the house, cars, and yard, all the taxes and investments, and about half the date night planning. I also do almost all the sports planning and most of the attendance. She buys the kids' clothes and I usually wash them. And I'm a Big Law partner (though so is she). Yet DW is permanently angry at me for leaving all the planning and worrying to her.

This is interesting to me. I (DW) am a PT consultant - PT because my FT DH showed me he wasn't able to manage helping when I was FT, and I'm not SAH because I feel a responsibility to be employed for the sake of my kids. While DH has gotten better in the last few years (thanks COVID!) it still breaks down as follows:

DW:
meal planning (see below)
grocery shopping (because if he does, it'll be all convenience/junk food, or we'll be eating out)
cooking
cleaning (and housekeeper management)
doctor's appt scheduling (plus dentist)
doctor's appt taking (plus dentist)
interface with schools (forms, teacher communications, etc)
interface with extracurricular activities (Scouts, etc.)
interface with summer camps
yard maintenance
house maintenance
car maintenance
care planning (too old for daycare, but can't leave the younger kid more than 2-3 hours at a time)
driving teacher for older kid
calendar management
date night planning
vacation planning
bank account monitoring
household laundry (e.g., towels, sheets)


DH: (**picked up during Covid)
trash**
taxes
laundry for younger kid (who I would like DH to train, but doesn't have patience)
sport for younger kid**
investments**
vacation booking (he'll do flights b/c he has airline status)
bill paying**
unload dishwasher/clean kitchen after dinner (when he is home)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone in your household has to make preparations and decide whether or not to make a list of things that need to be done when they go out of town, that person is doing more.

If someone can go out of town, and no one really notices their absence, that person is doing less (day to day).

This is a very straightforward way of putting it and it is SO telling.

My DH regularly has to travel last minute for work and I just roll with it. It can be inconvenient in some ways because he does do stuff around the house and with the kids and it means we can't divide and conquer on those busy days where someone has to make dinner and one or more kids have an activity, for instance. But it's also actually easier in many ways. I find that things move more smoothly and there is less conflict. I can get on my schedule and get through my list and I actually tend to have more energy because I am not investing energy into planning couple time with DH. I go to bed earlier, often sleep better, and don't have to negotiate my schedule with his.

Meanwhile, my DH begged me not to take a job with 10% travel requirements because when I have travelled in the past he has absolutely lost it by Day 2. Even basic stuff like getting kids to school on time with appropriate items is challenging for him. The house is instantly a wreck and the kids are in bad moods because they are off schedule and are often overtired or hungry because he doesn't know how to make mealtimes or bedtimes happen (he does this thing where he'll say "ok, time for bed" like 45 minutes after bedtime, and then gets annoyed when the kids don't instantly get into bed, but in fact put up a fight because they are too tired). If I give him a schedule of stuff that needs to happen, he immediately gets overwhelmed, even if it's just something like bringing snack to school or picking one kid up from an activity at a different time instead of from school with the others.

Be both work and I would LOVE a job where I could travel a bit more because I really miss that aspect of my pre-kid life, but we've found that he just does not have the skills or focus to keep our home life humming while I'm away. But to me it's second nature. I love him, but I definitely think I'm more essential to making our lives work than he is. He does make more than me but only like 15% more, nothing major. And I would make more if I could take the kind of job I'd like to take.

There are days when I feel like men are kind of superfluous to society because I know so many marriages like this. In some the men make a lot more money or the women are SAHMs and I get that changes the equation. But I know tons of professional women who are also amazing house managers and parents and their husbands are nice people but simply not on that level at all.

I'm the 11:50 poster above. Exactly this (bolded).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I mean, that’s what is happening. 60% of college students are now female. That’s now spilling over into the workforce, and the number of women in senior managerial roles is increasing every year. Male dominated industries are being taken over by women; there are now more women in medical school than men, which will translate to more female doctors. We almost had a female president and now have a female Vice President.

And, men like you are scared. I hear men complain all the time how none of those women deserve it, it’s all just affirmative action, or that the educational system is biased against males and that’s why they’re falling behind, or whatever. When maybe it’s just that women are better adapted to those roles and men can’t keep up.

This is a good point. Through most of history, women were told they couldn't be doctors/lawyers/politicians/scientists/writers/artists/chefs because they were inherently less capable or that aspects of their nature made them unsuited to the demands of the role. Now things are changing such that women and girls seem better suited to modern workplaces and educational approaches, and it's not fair and biased. FWIW, I think there is value in inherently masculine traits (which can be found in both men and women), but the whining is quite telling. I'm reading a book right now about a female surgeon in 1914, and the other characters keep talking about how women are too emotional to be surgeons. And now we know that medical outcomes are better when doctors are more empathetic to their patients.

Not only are women outnumbering men in college and in fields like medicine, they’re also doing very well in trades. In the last two years, I’ve hired very competent female electricians, plumbers and movers. The growing number of single female homeowners has supported this growth.

Men are at a crossroads. They can sit around watching porn, playing video games, and getting angry, or they can level up and work alongside us. Society isn’t going back the way it was, however much they might like it to.

Reminds me of this article from the WSJ about men not going to college: https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-university-fall-higher-education-men-women-enrollment-admissions-back-to-school-11630948233

Ms. Gereghty said she found that girls more closely attended to their college applications than boys, for instance making sure transcripts are delivered. Baylor created a “males and moms communication campaign” a few years ago to keep high-school boys on track, she said.

These boys need their mommies to make sure their college applications are complete, and yet we're somehow supposed to believe they are the fundamentally more capable gender?

And this one from WaPo about women going into the trades: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/04/21/americas-manliest-industries-are-all-competing-for-women/

The opioid epidemic, meanwhile, has zapped some of the male workforce because men are more likely than women to both use and overdose on illicit drugs.

My brother was one of the “males and mommies” students. My mom and sister did his applications and essays for him. Meanwhile sis and I did our applications 100% solo, parents wouldn’t help us at all.

Brother got kicked out of two schools and never finished. Now works as a bartender in his mid30s. I own a company, and sis became a doctor despite being actively discourage by our parents.

I see the same thing play out over and over among my friends with teenage/college age boys. Daughters are held to a high standard and not helped out at all, meanwhile they’re paying for apartments for their late teens/early 20s sons who don’t work or go to school and just get high/drink all day. I’ve encouraged them to require their sons get vasectomies if they’re going to support them, imagine bringing a child into that mess.

Agree, and this is 10 fold in some cultural communities, putting rowdy boys on the prince pedestal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone in your household has to make preparations and decide whether or not to make a list of things that need to be done when they go out of town, that person is doing more.

If someone can go out of town, and no one really notices their absence, that person is doing less (day to day).

This is a very straightforward way of putting it and it is SO telling.

My DH regularly has to travel last minute for work and I just roll with it. It can be inconvenient in some ways because he does do stuff around the house and with the kids and it means we can't divide and conquer on those busy days where someone has to make dinner and one or more kids have an activity, for instance. But it's also actually easier in many ways. I find that things move more smoothly and there is less conflict. I can get on my schedule and get through my list and I actually tend to have more energy because I am not investing energy into planning couple time with DH. I go to bed earlier, often sleep better, and don't have to negotiate my schedule with his.

Meanwhile, my DH begged me not to take a job with 10% travel requirements because when I have travelled in the past he has absolutely lost it by Day 2. Even basic stuff like getting kids to school on time with appropriate items is challenging for him. The house is instantly a wreck and the kids are in bad moods because they are off schedule and are often overtired or hungry because he doesn't know how to make mealtimes or bedtimes happen (he does this thing where he'll say "ok, time for bed" like 45 minutes after bedtime, and then gets annoyed when the kids don't instantly get into bed, but in fact put up a fight because they are too tired). If I give him a schedule of stuff that needs to happen, he immediately gets overwhelmed, even if it's just something like bringing snack to school or picking one kid up from an activity at a different time instead of from school with the others.

Be both work and I would LOVE a job where I could travel a bit more because I really miss that aspect of my pre-kid life, but we've found that he just does not have the skills or focus to keep our home life humming while I'm away. But to me it's second nature. I love him, but I definitely think I'm more essential to making our lives work than he is. He does make more than me but only like 15% more, nothing major. And I would make more if I could take the kind of job I'd like to take.

There are days when I feel like men are kind of superfluous to society because I know so many marriages like this. In some the men make a lot more money or the women are SAHMs and I get that changes the equation. But I know tons of professional women who are also amazing house managers and parents and their husbands are nice people but simply not on that level at all.

I'm the 11:50 poster above. Exactly this (bolded).

Same here but spouse has a few diagnoses and won’t manage his symptoms. Even with an $$$$ executive functioning coach. Who will be firing him any week now.

[Anonymous]

Women do more. But they also create an overscheduled, hectic life for their family that makes everyone miserable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women do much more. Men are lazy at home.

Men aren’t lazy. Maybe your man is, but not men as a whole. Make better choices in men and you won’t have that problem. Not our fault you married a lazy guy.

I married a guy who said specifically that he wanted to be involved at home. Till he found out what that was. He also was not good at his work and after about five years of getting fired and not progressing I let him just sit in his current position with very little additional pay each year while inflation crept up. If you aren't good at your work or at home, it's you, not your wife. Oh and somehow he had time for multiple affair partners.

[Anonymous]

We do more.

[Anonymous]

I'm a DH and I feel I do my share around the house include most of the childcare, mostly because I have a more flexible work schedule and DW is not good with our special needs kid so I do the bulk of caring there.

DW does have higher cleaning standards bordering on OCD. For example, she will wipe the kitchen counters several time WHILE I AM STILL COOKING. I'd wait until I was finished and wipe the counter once. Of course she's doing "more work" but is it really necessary to wipe the counters mid-meal prep?

[Anonymous]

I would complain less if he did more.