are we both crazy?

[Anonymous]

Wife and I have been together for almost 5 years, we have a one-year old son and that part is awesome. He has been a blessing in our lives and his presence really has helped me with all facets of my life. We fight occasionally, and it gets bad quickly bc we both have bad tempers. We went together to a marriage therapist for several years that has helped curtail some of our previous bad habits, but we still break down into anger and sometimes violence toward one another.

A pattern that has emerged over the past several years between us is that one of us will voice a concern-and not always in the right tone or using the right language-and the other will react defensively. Generally it is me telling her something along the lines of "I really wish you would _ so that we could _". I try and not assign blame or responsibility on her for my feelings. What generally happens is that she will get immediately defensive and start raising her voice, using personal attacks and countering what I say with "tit for tat" comments like, "well ya know, if you did _, we could do _". So around we go in circles with her increasing the vitriol and attacking, pushing, and taunting me. It feels like she doesn't respect me.

When she gets mad, she will tell me "YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO ME" even though I definitely am and could basically repeat verbatim her words because she is screaming at me. And trust me, if I weren't interested in listening, I damn sure wouldn't be standing in the same room receiving her outbursts. As in many other aspects of our lives, there is no one that can convince her of anything that she already has her mind made up on. She is intractable and arrogant when she wants to be.

Why cant she say, "I don't feel like you are listening to me because _"?? Or something along those lines....rather than presuming I'm not listening when I've tried for years to be an attentive, engaged partner to her. Telling me I'm not listening is one way to ensure that I will stop listening.

She will yell with our son in the other room and then get mad at me for yelling back at her because our son is in the other room. It goes on and on like this, she generally always tries to badger me back into a fight after I've stopped talking.

The "you're not listening to me" piece is supremely annoying and frustrating, but what has become unacceptable after 5 years is the fact that in the middle of nearly every fight we get into, she bolts out the door, car keys and phone in her hands, and goes "driving around". I don't mind her getting out of the house for some air, but what about our discussion? what about our family unit? What about all the times before when she has admitted she was wrong for leaving and wouldn't do it again?

She has done it since we first got together-she just runs away from any problem, most of which she has created with her volatility and lack of emotional and impulse control. It makes me feel like some day she will just leave me and the boy and never come back, which at this point I wouldn't mind.

She gets to hijack the day and keep everybody in suspense because she is a manipulator and I don't know what to do with it or how to stand up to it. Yesterday she did it again, in the middle of a beautiful Sunday morning where we were going to do all sorts of family shit and have fun etc. She gets wound up, I fire back at her defending myself and my actions, and she bails out of the house without saying a word. She left me and our boy there looking at each other like WTF?! So I lost my cool and I started packing a bag and reserving a hotel and packing up his stuff for a few days away. I texted her and said we were leaving for a week. She came home eventually and ignored all of the messages voicing my concern (she always does this, too, avoids the messages) and spent the whole day acting like we didn't exist.

My boy and I had a blast, doing all the things she always talks about doing and then never actually wants to do. We went to the orchid blossom show at the Botanical Garden, walked around the capitol, and went to Kenilworth Aquatic gardens for a picnic lunch and a walk around. It was really an incredible bonding moment for me and him, one I'll never forget, and I'm sad that it had to come from such an ugly circumstance that I cant help but think that she created.

I think I'm finally seeing that she is a bully and she will always leave like this and nothing will ever change with her until she actually wants to change. Am I crazy to think that she cares more about herself and her emotions more than anything else, including her marriage and her baby?

[Anonymous]

You need to go back to counseling and work on your communication skills. You need rules and boundaries to keep from spiraling like this.

That said, you opened with admitting that your fights devolve into anger "and sometimes violence," you said you don't want to be screaming at each other around your kid, but you think the real problem is her removing herself from the fight? I think it sounds like the healthiest detail in your entire post.

The way you describe fights you're both doing the same things (getting defensive, accusing the other of the same behavior you're participating in, getting angrier instead of defusing, going on the attack, etc.) and the only difference in how you process these fights is her leaving the scene. Is it the very best way a fight can be defused? Absolutely not. But neither of you have the emotional maturity to defuse fights otherwise, so you should thank your lucky stars she's doing *something* to defuse before you reach the level of "sometimes violence."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You need to go back to counseling and work on your communication skills. You need rules and boundaries to keep from spiraling like this.

That said, you opened with admitting that your fights devolve into anger "and sometimes violence," you said you don't want to be screaming at each other around your kid, but you think the real problem is her removing herself from the fight? I think it sounds like the healthiest detail in your entire post.

The way you describe fights you're both doing the same things (getting defensive, accusing the other of the same behavior you're participating in, getting angrier instead of defusing, going on the attack, etc.) and the only difference in how you process these fights is her leaving the scene. Is it the very best way a fight can be defused? Absolutely not. But neither of you have the emotional maturity to defuse fights otherwise, so you should thank your lucky stars she's doing *something* to defuse before you reach the level of "sometimes violence."

OP here, thanks. The violence is relegated to her pushing me out of the way (or down the stairs) in order for her to run away or have some other kind of outburst.

I didn't include what I do to defuse the fight-which is to walk away to another place in the house and be quiet, not let my words create any more trouble, and her reaction is to either follow me around the house screaming, or to badger me with taunts to crank up the fight again.

I don't feel like her leaving is the best option for anyone, especially me and the kid. It shows a disregard and disrespect that is indicative to me of how she feels about us. She's not trying to defuse, she's trying to escape a problem or situation that she is largely responsible for creating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You need to go back to counseling and work on your communication skills. You need rules and boundaries to keep from spiraling like this.

That said, you opened with admitting that your fights devolve into anger "and sometimes violence," you said you don't want to be screaming at each other around your kid, but you think the real problem is her removing herself from the fight? I think it sounds like the healthiest detail in your entire post.

The way you describe fights you're both doing the same things (getting defensive, accusing the other of the same behavior you're participating in, getting angrier instead of defusing, going on the attack, etc.) and the only difference in how you process these fights is her leaving the scene. Is it the very best way a fight can be defused? Absolutely not. But neither of you have the emotional maturity to defuse fights otherwise, so you should thank your lucky stars she's doing *something* to defuse before you reach the level of "sometimes violence."

+1 not much else matters if you guys can't disagree without making sure it never ends up being violent.

[Anonymous]

When you walk away it's defusing; when she drives away it's manipulation. Got it.

You can either get back in therapy or divorce, but you're kidding yourself that she's the only problem in this marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When you walk away it's defusing; when she drives away it's manipulation. Got it.

You can either get back in therapy or divorce, but you're kidding yourself that she's the only problem in this marriage.

+1 and the "violence" is her pushing him to get away from him... OP, you aren't capable of being impartial here and it shows.

[Anonymous]

“I wish you would X so we could Y” is not “not assigning blame.”

“I feel X” is not assigning blame. And “X” doesn’t have the word “you” in it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you walk away it's defusing; when she drives away it's manipulation. Got it.

You can either get back in therapy or divorce, but you're kidding yourself that she's the only problem in this marriage.

+1 and the "violence" is her pushing him to get away from him... OP, you aren't capable of being impartial here and it shows.

I might have missed something here but at what point did OP say she was the only problem?

From OP's post, I think walking away to another part of the house is much less of a destructive defusing method than driving around town all day. that shuts out any kind of potential compromise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you walk away it's defusing; when she drives away it's manipulation. Got it.

You can either get back in therapy or divorce, but you're kidding yourself that she's the only problem in this marriage.

+1 and the "violence" is her pushing him to get away from him... OP, you aren't capable of being impartial here and it shows.

I might have missed something here but at what point did OP say she was the only problem?

From OP's post, I think walking away to another part of the house is much less of a destructive defusing method than driving around town all day. that shuts out any kind of potential compromise.

Anonymous wrote:Wife and I have been together for almost 5 years, we have a one-year old son and that part is awesome. He has been a blessing in our lives and his presence really has helped me with all facets of my life. We fight occasionally, and it gets bad quickly bc we both have bad tempers. We went together to a marriage therapist for several years that has helped curtail some of our previous bad habits, but we still break down into anger and sometimes violence toward one another.

A pattern that has emerged over the past several years between us is that one of us will voice a concern-and not always in the right tone or using the right language-and the other will react defensively. Generally it is me telling her something along the lines of "I really wish you would _ so that we could _". I try and not assign blame or responsibility on her for my feelings. What generally happens is that she will get immediately defensive and start raising her voice, using personal attacks and countering what I say with "tit for tat" comments like, "well ya know, if you did _, we could do _". So around we go in circles with her increasing the vitriol and attacking, pushing, and taunting me. It feels like she doesn't respect me. [Here we have them saying the exact same things to each other, but he's just "not using the right tone" while she's "personally attacking," and then only she is "increasing the vitriol, attacking, pushing, taunting." He's started the fight but she's the problem.]

When she gets mad, she will tell me "YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO ME" even though I definitely am and could basically repeat verbatim her words because she is screaming at me. And trust me, if I weren't interested in listening, I damn sure wouldn't be standing in the same room receiving her outbursts. As in many other aspects of our lives, there is no one that can convince her of anything that she already has her mind made up on. She is intractable and arrogant when she wants to be. [She's the only problem here.]

Why cant she say, "I don't feel like you are listening to me because _"?? Or something along those lines....rather than presuming I'm not listening when I've tried for years to be an attentive, engaged partner to her. Telling me I'm not listening is one way to ensure that I will stop listening. [You're not listening to me is a crazy thing to say, but "you're not listening to me because __" would change his entire outlook. Okay. Sure? Again he's describing himself as a saint facing down a virago.]

She will yell with our son in the other room and then get mad at me for yelling back at her because our son is in the other room. It goes on and on like this, she generally always tries to badger me back into a fight after I've stopped talking. [Here for only the second time he admits he participates in the fights, but still she's the problem because he tries to "stop talking," which is somehow not manipulation like leaving is, even though it has the same effect.]

The "you're not listening to me" piece is supremely annoying and frustrating, but what has become unacceptable after 5 years is the fact that in the middle of nearly every fight we get into, she bolts out the door, car keys and phone in her hands, and goes "driving around". I don't mind her getting out of the house for some air, but what about our discussion? what about our family unit? What about all the times before when she has admitted she was wrong for leaving and wouldn't do it again? [It's okay for her to leave the house for some air, and later he says he leaves the room in the middle of fights (in addition to going silent), but her having the nerve to drive is destructive to the family unit. Again, not clear how. But she's wrong and his version of the same behavior is right.]

She has done it since we first got together-she just runs away from any problem, most of which she has created with her volatility and lack of emotional and impulse control. It makes me feel like some day she will just leave me and the boy and never come back, which at this point I wouldn't mind. [Here you go.]

She gets to hijack the day and keep everybody in suspense because she is a manipulator and I don't know what to do with it or how to stand up to it. Yesterday she did it again, in the middle of a beautiful Sunday morning where we were going to do all sorts of family shit and have fun etc. She gets wound up, I fire back at her defending myself and my actions, and she bails out of the house without saying a word. She left me and our boy there looking at each other like WTF?! So I lost my cool and I started packing a bag and reserving a hotel and packing up his stuff for a few days away. I texted her and said we were leaving for a week. She came home eventually and ignored all of the messages voicing my concern (she always does this, too, avoids the messages) and spent the whole day acting like we didn't exist.

My boy and I had a blast, doing all the things she always talks about doing and then never actually wants to do. We went to the orchid blossom show at the Botanical Garden, walked around the capitol, and went to Kenilworth Aquatic gardens for a picnic lunch and a walk around. It was really an incredible bonding moment for me and him, one I'll never forget, and I'm sad that it had to come from such an ugly circumstance that I cant help but think that she created. [All her, none of it was him, she's the problem.]

I think I'm finally seeing that she is a bully and she will always leave like this and nothing will ever change with her until she actually wants to change. Am I crazy to think that she cares more about herself and her emotions more than anything else, including her marriage and her baby?

This is very messy and one-sided. They both sound immature and like they need therapy. But calling her a bully for doing the same thing he does (except he's decided to one-up her by taking the child when he runs away) is transparent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you walk away it's defusing; when she drives away it's manipulation. Got it.

You can either get back in therapy or divorce, but you're kidding yourself that she's the only problem in this marriage.

+1 and the "violence" is her pushing him to get away from him... OP, you aren't capable of being impartial here and it shows.

I might have missed something here but at what point did OP say she was the only problem?

From OP's post, I think walking away to another part of the house is much less of a destructive defusing method than driving around town all day. that shuts out any kind of potential compromise.

Anonymous wrote:Wife and I have been together for almost 5 years, we have a one-year old son and that part is awesome. He has been a blessing in our lives and his presence really has helped me with all facets of my life. We fight occasionally, and it gets bad quickly bc we both have bad tempers. We went together to a marriage therapist for several years that has helped curtail some of our previous bad habits, but we still break down into anger and sometimes violence toward one another.

A pattern that has emerged over the past several years between us is that one of us will voice a concern-and not always in the right tone or using the right language-and the other will react defensively. Generally it is me telling her something along the lines of "I really wish you would _ so that we could _". I try and not assign blame or responsibility on her for my feelings. What generally happens is that she will get immediately defensive and start raising her voice, using personal attacks and countering what I say with "tit for tat" comments like, "well ya know, if you did _, we could do _". So around we go in circles with her increasing the vitriol and attacking, pushing, and taunting me. It feels like she doesn't respect me. [Here we have them saying the exact same things to each other, but he's just "not using the right tone" while she's "personally attacking," and then only she is "increasing the vitriol, attacking, pushing, taunting." He's started the fight but she's the problem.]

When she gets mad, she will tell me "YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO ME" even though I definitely am and could basically repeat verbatim her words because she is screaming at me. And trust me, if I weren't interested in listening, I damn sure wouldn't be standing in the same room receiving her outbursts. As in many other aspects of our lives, there is no one that can convince her of anything that she already has her mind made up on. She is intractable and arrogant when she wants to be. [She's the only problem here.]

Why cant she say, "I don't feel like you are listening to me because _"?? Or something along those lines....rather than presuming I'm not listening when I've tried for years to be an attentive, engaged partner to her. Telling me I'm not listening is one way to ensure that I will stop listening. [You're not listening to me is a crazy thing to say, but "you're not listening to me because __" would change his entire outlook. Okay. Sure? Again he's describing himself as a saint facing down a virago.]

She will yell with our son in the other room and then get mad at me for yelling back at her because our son is in the other room. It goes on and on like this, she generally always tries to badger me back into a fight after I've stopped talking. [Here for only the second time he admits he participates in the fights, but still she's the problem because he tries to "stop talking," which is somehow not manipulation like leaving is, even though it has the same effect.]

The "you're not listening to me" piece is supremely annoying and frustrating, but what has become unacceptable after 5 years is the fact that in the middle of nearly every fight we get into, she bolts out the door, car keys and phone in her hands, and goes "driving around". I don't mind her getting out of the house for some air, but what about our discussion? what about our family unit? What about all the times before when she has admitted she was wrong for leaving and wouldn't do it again? [It's okay for her to leave the house for some air, and later he says he leaves the room in the middle of fights (in addition to going silent), but her having the nerve to drive is destructive to the family unit. Again, not clear how. But she's wrong and his version of the same behavior is right.]

She has done it since we first got together-she just runs away from any problem, most of which she has created with her volatility and lack of emotional and impulse control. It makes me feel like some day she will just leave me and the boy and never come back, which at this point I wouldn't mind. [Here you go.]

She gets to hijack the day and keep everybody in suspense because she is a manipulator and I don't know what to do with it or how to stand up to it. Yesterday she did it again, in the middle of a beautiful Sunday morning where we were going to do all sorts of family shit and have fun etc. She gets wound up, I fire back at her defending myself and my actions, and she bails out of the house without saying a word. She left me and our boy there looking at each other like WTF?! So I lost my cool and I started packing a bag and reserving a hotel and packing up his stuff for a few days away. I texted her and said we were leaving for a week. She came home eventually and ignored all of the messages voicing my concern (she always does this, too, avoids the messages) and spent the whole day acting like we didn't exist.

My boy and I had a blast, doing all the things she always talks about doing and then never actually wants to do. We went to the orchid blossom show at the Botanical Garden, walked around the capitol, and went to Kenilworth Aquatic gardens for a picnic lunch and a walk around. It was really an incredible bonding moment for me and him, one I'll never forget, and I'm sad that it had to come from such an ugly circumstance that I cant help but think that she created. [All her, none of it was him, she's the problem.]

I think I'm finally seeing that she is a bully and she will always leave like this and nothing will ever change with her until she actually wants to change. Am I crazy to think that she cares more about herself and her emotions more than anything else, including her marriage and her baby?

This is very messy and one-sided. They both sound immature and like they need therapy. But calling her a bully for doing the same thing he does (except he's decided to one-up her by taking the child when he runs away) is transparent.

It sounded to me like "he took the child away" because he was left alone with said child.

[Anonymous]

For all of you (predictably) standing up for the woman in this, she sounds batshit and he has told her repeatedly that her "conflict resolution" is not a resolution at all.

[Anonymous]

So, you had a tantrum and took your child for a week. Sounds crappy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you walk away it's defusing; when she drives away it's manipulation. Got it.

You can either get back in therapy or divorce, but you're kidding yourself that she's the only problem in this marriage.

+1 and the "violence" is her pushing him to get away from him... OP, you aren't capable of being impartial here and it shows.

I might have missed something here but at what point did OP say she was the only problem?

From OP's post, I think walking away to another part of the house is much less of a destructive defusing method than driving around town all day. that shuts out any kind of potential compromise.

Anonymous wrote:Wife and I have been together for almost 5 years, we have a one-year old son and that part is awesome. He has been a blessing in our lives and his presence really has helped me with all facets of my life. We fight occasionally, and it gets bad quickly bc we both have bad tempers. We went together to a marriage therapist for several years that has helped curtail some of our previous bad habits, but we still break down into anger and sometimes violence toward one another.

A pattern that has emerged over the past several years between us is that one of us will voice a concern-and not always in the right tone or using the right language-and the other will react defensively. Generally it is me telling her something along the lines of "I really wish you would _ so that we could _". I try and not assign blame or responsibility on her for my feelings. What generally happens is that she will get immediately defensive and start raising her voice, using personal attacks and countering what I say with "tit for tat" comments like, "well ya know, if you did _, we could do _". So around we go in circles with her increasing the vitriol and attacking, pushing, and taunting me. It feels like she doesn't respect me. [Here we have them saying the exact same things to each other, but he's just "not using the right tone" while she's "personally attacking," and then only she is "increasing the vitriol, attacking, pushing, taunting." He's started the fight but she's the problem.]

When she gets mad, she will tell me "YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO ME" even though I definitely am and could basically repeat verbatim her words because she is screaming at me. And trust me, if I weren't interested in listening, I damn sure wouldn't be standing in the same room receiving her outbursts. As in many other aspects of our lives, there is no one that can convince her of anything that she already has her mind made up on. She is intractable and arrogant when she wants to be. [She's the only problem here.]

Why cant she say, "I don't feel like you are listening to me because _"?? Or something along those lines....rather than presuming I'm not listening when I've tried for years to be an attentive, engaged partner to her. Telling me I'm not listening is one way to ensure that I will stop listening. [You're not listening to me is a crazy thing to say, but "you're not listening to me because __" would change his entire outlook. Okay. Sure? Again he's describing himself as a saint facing down a virago.]

She will yell with our son in the other room and then get mad at me for yelling back at her because our son is in the other room. It goes on and on like this, she generally always tries to badger me back into a fight after I've stopped talking. [Here for only the second time he admits he participates in the fights, but still she's the problem because he tries to "stop talking," which is somehow not manipulation like leaving is, even though it has the same effect.]

The "you're not listening to me" piece is supremely annoying and frustrating, but what has become unacceptable after 5 years is the fact that in the middle of nearly every fight we get into, she bolts out the door, car keys and phone in her hands, and goes "driving around". I don't mind her getting out of the house for some air, but what about our discussion? what about our family unit? What about all the times before when she has admitted she was wrong for leaving and wouldn't do it again? [It's okay for her to leave the house for some air, and later he says he leaves the room in the middle of fights (in addition to going silent), but her having the nerve to drive is destructive to the family unit. Again, not clear how. But she's wrong and his version of the same behavior is right.]

She has done it since we first got together-she just runs away from any problem, most of which she has created with her volatility and lack of emotional and impulse control. It makes me feel like some day she will just leave me and the boy and never come back, which at this point I wouldn't mind. [Here you go.]

She gets to hijack the day and keep everybody in suspense because she is a manipulator and I don't know what to do with it or how to stand up to it. Yesterday she did it again, in the middle of a beautiful Sunday morning where we were going to do all sorts of family shit and have fun etc. She gets wound up, I fire back at her defending myself and my actions, and she bails out of the house without saying a word. She left me and our boy there looking at each other like WTF?! So I lost my cool and I started packing a bag and reserving a hotel and packing up his stuff for a few days away. I texted her and said we were leaving for a week. She came home eventually and ignored all of the messages voicing my concern (she always does this, too, avoids the messages) and spent the whole day acting like we didn't exist.

My boy and I had a blast, doing all the things she always talks about doing and then never actually wants to do. We went to the orchid blossom show at the Botanical Garden, walked around the capitol, and went to Kenilworth Aquatic gardens for a picnic lunch and a walk around. It was really an incredible bonding moment for me and him, one I'll never forget, and I'm sad that it had to come from such an ugly circumstance that I cant help but think that she created. [All her, none of it was him, she's the problem.]

I think I'm finally seeing that she is a bully and she will always leave like this and nothing will ever change with her until she actually wants to change. Am I crazy to think that she cares more about herself and her emotions more than anything else, including her marriage and her baby?

This is very messy and one-sided. They both sound immature and like they need therapy. But calling her a bully for doing the same thing he does (except he's decided to one-up her by taking the child when he runs away) is transparent.

It sounded to me like "he took the child away" because he was left alone with said child.

Read again -- she came home and was there for a day before he left. It was payback, not "what do I do alone with this kid?"

They're both immature as hell. But he's saying she crosses the line for doing exactly what he does (try to escape the argument) and he says the thing he hates about her leaving is because it makes him think she might leave the kid for real. So he took the kid to teach her a lesson.

[Anonymous]

most of the pp responses are missing the point: she is disrespectful of OP and their bond, and of their kid, too.

It seems like you guys are on a WITCH HUNT to find fault with OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:most of the pp responses are missing the point: she is disrespectful of OP and their bond, and of their kid, too.

It seems like you guys are on a WITCH HUNT to find fault with OP.

In OP's own description of their relationship, he's doing the exact same things to her that she does to him. They're both immature, poor communicators who escalate arguments into fights into leaving the other person behind. How is it "respectful of their bond" for him to take the kid for a week to spite her?