Reported hazing incident involving Damascus High School JV Football team

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
They're 15. Very young men.

The case should be referred back to the juvenile system.

Everything in context. Yes, they are young enough that their judgment in grey areas is suspect and should be given the benefit of the doubt and transferred to juvenile court. They are not so young that they cannot understand the severity of felonious crimes. There is no grey area when dealing with murder, rape, or violent crimes. A 15 year old should definitely know that these are very definitely and unequivocally wrong and punishable crimes. In this age of #MeToo, media coverage and social media coverage, all teens should have a very strong idea that any time of non-consensual acts of violence are very wrong. There have been dozens of hazing crimes that have gone national in the last few years and it should be obvious that hazing is not a joke, or acceptable in any way. Just Google "hazing crimes" and you'll get lists and most of these perps are being charged in court for felony crimes. If these are honor roll students, they know what that means. If the media and defense are going to try to postulate that these are honor roll students who are "good kids" then they should be smart enough to know better.

This correctly deserves to be in the adult court system. If this were something like shoplifting, B&E, or some other victimless crime, I agree that 15 is young to be able to discern the severity of a victimless crime, but it is not too young to know how wrong a violent crime against a victim is. There is a very good reason for the automatic waive-up rule for serious crimes and it definitely applies in this case.

If these boys had forced an underaged girl into the high school locker room and sexually assaulted her, would you think that this was a juvenile court system crime? If you do, then I question your own moral standards and am glad that wiser and more mature individuals have crafted our court guidelines. There is nothing youthful or innocent about first degree rape.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Everything in context. Yes, they are young enough that their judgment in grey areas is suspect and should be given the benefit of the doubt and transferred to juvenile court. They are not so young that they cannot understand the severity of felonious crimes. There is no grey area when dealing with murder, rape, or violent crimes. A 15 year old should definitely know that these are very definitely and unequivocally wrong and punishable crimes. In this age of #MeToo, media coverage and social media coverage, all teens should have a very strong idea that any time of non-consensual acts of violence are very wrong. There have been dozens of hazing crimes that have gone national in the last few years and it should be obvious that hazing is not a joke, or acceptable in any way. Just Google "hazing crimes" and you'll get lists and most of these perps are being charged in court for felony crimes. If these are honor roll students, they know what that means. If the media and defense are going to try to postulate that these are honor roll students who are "good kids" then they should be smart enough to know better.

This correctly deserves to be in the adult court system. If this were something like shoplifting, B&E, or some other victimless crime, I agree that 15 is young to be able to discern the severity of a victimless crime, but it is not too young to know how wrong a violent crime against a victim is. There is a very good reason for the automatic waive-up rule for serious crimes and it definitely applies in this case.

If these boys had forced an underaged girl into the high school locker room and sexually assaulted her, would you think that this was a juvenile court system crime? If you do, then I question your own moral standards and am glad that wiser and more mature individuals have crafted our court guidelines. There is nothing youthful or innocent about first degree rape.

Yes.

To repeat: it's the juvenile justice system because the alleged crime-committers are juveniles, not because the crimes are non-serious.

[Anonymous]

"There is nothing youthful or innocent about first degree rape."

Juveniles can do horrendous things. These kids didn't commit an "adult" act, they committed a serious crime that juveniles and adults are both known to commit.

Some countries use juvenile courts for all juveniles. I guess that's a lot of immature, unwise, and immoral people.

Our juvenile justice system can handle any child. It's not just for "kid stuff." They can handle and care for disturbed, violent youths. This case might very well wind up in juvenile court. That's OK.

And while we're on the topic, our "adult" justice system is nothing to write home about.

[Anonymous]

Kids actually have a really hard time understanding that very classic acts of school yard bullying "the 'give me your lunch money or I'll punch you in the face' bully" is committing a ROBBERY - a very serious violent felony. Kids absolutely do not understand that surrounding a kid and demanding his phone/shoes/coat/etc (implicitly if not explicitly on threat of violence) is a ROBBERY - a very serious violent felony. Kids do not intuitively understand this. They may know it's wrong, but if you ask them what a robbery is, they will describe a bank robbery or a store robbery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kids actually have a really hard time understanding that very classic acts of school yard bullying "the 'give me your lunch money or I'll punch you in the face' bully" is committing a ROBBERY - a very serious violent felony. Kids absolutely do not understand that surrounding a kid and demanding his phone/shoes/coat/etc (implicitly if not explicitly on threat of violence) is a ROBBERY - a very serious violent felony. Kids do not intuitively understand this. They may know it's wrong, but if you ask them what a robbery is, they will describe a bank robbery or a store robbery.

Oh OK

Thanks for the helpful information. The next time a teen tries to sodomize another kid with a broomstick, I'll keep your information in mind.

b/c you know . . . " . . . Kids actually have a really hard time understanding. . . "

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kids actually have a really hard time understanding that very classic acts of school yard bullying "the 'give me your lunch money or I'll punch you in the face' bully" is committing a ROBBERY - a very serious violent felony. Kids absolutely do not understand that surrounding a kid and demanding his phone/shoes/coat/etc (implicitly if not explicitly on threat of violence) is a ROBBERY - a very serious violent felony. Kids do not intuitively understand this. They may know it's wrong, but if you ask them what a robbery is, they will describe a bank robbery or a store robbery.

These kids also punched the victims repeatedly in the face and stomach during the crime. Sodomy aside, you really think 15 year olds don't realize beating people up is a crime? What kind of horrible children are you raising???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kids actually have a really hard time understanding that very classic acts of school yard bullying "the 'give me your lunch money or I'll punch you in the face' bully" is committing a ROBBERY - a very serious violent felony. Kids absolutely do not understand that surrounding a kid and demanding his phone/shoes/coat/etc (implicitly if not explicitly on threat of violence) is a ROBBERY - a very serious violent felony. Kids do not intuitively understand this. They may know it's wrong, but if you ask them what a robbery is, they will describe a bank robbery or a store robbery.

You're right. My seven and five year olds--kids--would have a very hard time understanding those things.

To compare that to whether a (reasonably intelligent) 15 year old can understand that holding down another adolescent and sodomizing him with a broomstick, though, is laughable. You know that.

And, yes, the prefrontal cortex doesn't mature until 25 years or so. But that does not preclude a group of 15 year olds from knowing that rape is wrong and that what they did is not what you do to people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids actually have a really hard time understanding that very classic acts of school yard bullying "the 'give me your lunch money or I'll punch you in the face' bully" is committing a ROBBERY - a very serious violent felony. Kids absolutely do not understand that surrounding a kid and demanding his phone/shoes/coat/etc (implicitly if not explicitly on threat of violence) is a ROBBERY - a very serious violent felony. Kids do not intuitively understand this. They may know it's wrong, but if you ask them what a robbery is, they will describe a bank robbery or a store robbery.

You're right. My seven and five year olds--kids--would have a very hard time understanding those things.

To compare that to whether a (reasonably intelligent) 15 year old can understand that holding down another adolescent and sodomizing him with a broomstick, though, is laughable. You know that.

And, yes, the prefrontal cortex doesn't mature until 25 years or so. But that does not preclude a group of 15 year olds from knowing that rape is wrong and that what they did is not what you do to people.

I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know, knowing right from wrong is not a factor in the decision for juvenile vs. adult court.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids actually have a really hard time understanding that very classic acts of school yard bullying "the 'give me your lunch money or I'll punch you in the face' bully" is committing a ROBBERY - a very serious violent felony. Kids absolutely do not understand that surrounding a kid and demanding his phone/shoes/coat/etc (implicitly if not explicitly on threat of violence) is a ROBBERY - a very serious violent felony. Kids do not intuitively understand this. They may know it's wrong, but if you ask them what a robbery is, they will describe a bank robbery or a store robbery.

You're right. My seven and five year olds--kids--would have a very hard time understanding those things.

To compare that to whether a (reasonably intelligent) 15 year old can understand that holding down another adolescent and sodomizing him with a broomstick, though, is laughable. You know that.

And, yes, the prefrontal cortex doesn't mature until 25 years or so. But that does not preclude a group of 15 year olds from knowing that rape is wrong and that what they did is not what you do to people.

This, a million times over!
Those of you arguing that 15-year-olds are brainless babies should watch "Law and Order SUV", the issue is debated to death there, no pun intended.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids actually have a really hard time understanding that very classic acts of school yard bullying "the 'give me your lunch money or I'll punch you in the face' bully" is committing a ROBBERY - a very serious violent felony. Kids absolutely do not understand that surrounding a kid and demanding his phone/shoes/coat/etc (implicitly if not explicitly on threat of violence) is a ROBBERY - a very serious violent felony. Kids do not intuitively understand this. They may know it's wrong, but if you ask them what a robbery is, they will describe a bank robbery or a store robbery.

You're right. My seven and five year olds--kids--would have a very hard time understanding those things.

To compare that to whether a (reasonably intelligent) 15 year old can understand that holding down another adolescent and sodomizing him with a broomstick, though, is laughable. You know that.

And, yes, the prefrontal cortex doesn't mature until 25 years or so. But that does not preclude a group of 15 year olds from knowing that rape is wrong and that what they did is not what you do to people.

This, a million times over!
Those of you arguing that 15-year-olds are brainless babies should watch "Law and Order SUV", the issue is debated to death there, no pun intended.

No one is arguing that they are brainless babies. That is how you are characterizing the argument in order to mock it. We are arguing that they are not adults - neither in their thinking nor in their understanding. They are not the same as adults. That does not mean they are brainless babies.

[Anonymous]

Uugh. Does anyone else remember this case of the teens (aged 14-19) from Potomac who lured a female escort to the home of one of them and brutally raped and sodomized her? I think they all got probation. The father of Andrew Klepper was a high powered attorney and his mom was a guidance counselor in the Montgomery County school system.

It reminds me of this case because of the young age of the perpetrators and they were all from "privileged" backgrounds.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2003/05/29/potomac-teen-gets-probation-in-sexual-assault-on-escort/de4d9f3b-2ebd-4920-ad6f-680045364754/?utm_term=.4bff2cd8c291

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Uugh. Does anyone else remember this case of the teens (aged 14-19) from Potomac who lured a female escort to the home of one of them and brutally raped and sodomized her? I think they all got probation. The father of Andrew Klepper was a high powered attorney and his mom was a guidance counselor in the Montgomery County school system.

It reminds me of this case because of the young age of the perpetrators and they were all from "privileged" backgrounds.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2003/05/29/potomac-teen-gets-probation-in-sexual-assault-on-escort/de4d9f3b-2ebd-4920-ad6f-680045364754/?utm_term=.4bff2cd8c291

where is he now? was he rehabilitated?

[Anonymous]

This was in USA Today yesterday:

"When the Damascus (Md.) High School junior varsity football team was accused of sexual assault in connection with a hazing incident, it sent shockwaves through the Maryland prep football community. Now that some of the details of the alleged incident have been revealed in court, the sophomore-on-freshmen incident appears even more horrific than ever.
Here’s how the Washington Post described the lead-up to the alleged sexual assaults that occurred in the Damascus locker room, as described in court Monday:
When the sophomore football players entered the freshman locker room, authorities say, one held up a four-foot broom. He pumped his fist and chanted.
Lights went off. The handle of the broom could be heard banging against a wall.
“It’s time,” another sophomore said.
One of the freshmen tried to leave. A sophomore blocked him from doing so.
If the idea of being sodomized by a broom wasn’t already horrific enough, consider that brief foray into a C-rated horror script intended to intimidate a group of freshman football players. Perhaps more significantly, it’s a pretty clear indication that the suspects now in court had an idea about what they were doing.
The four 15-year-old suspects were all released Monday on $20,000 bond.
The school is still awaiting the result of the case against the teens before launching its own investigation into the supervision of the athletes. It remains to be seen what impact that has on the larger Damascus football program, but given the events that apparently transpired in the locker room, it may not reflect too well on whichever coaches are deemed to be responsible for the JV program."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Uugh. Does anyone else remember this case of the teens (aged 14-19) from Potomac who lured a female escort to the home of one of them and brutally raped and sodomized her? I think they all got probation. The father of Andrew Klepper was a high powered attorney and his mom was a guidance counselor in the Montgomery County school system.

It reminds me of this case because of the young age of the perpetrators and they were all from "privileged" backgrounds.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2003/05/29/potomac-teen-gets-probation-in-sexual-assault-on-escort/de4d9f3b-2ebd-4920-ad6f-680045364754/?utm_term=.4bff2cd8c291

where is he now? was he rehabilitated?

Doesn't seem that way. According to the article, his parents sent him to a fancy rehab center in Tennessee and then a boarding school for troubled youth. Several years after that, the MD Judiciary Case Search shows he violated his probation multiple times, and was subsequently charged with prostitution and later solicitation of a minor (apparently an undercover police officer) in 2006 and 2009 respectively. Because of that, he served time in prison in MD, though it seems like most of the sentence was suspended.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Everything in context. Yes, they are young enough that their judgment in grey areas is suspect and should be given the benefit of the doubt and transferred to juvenile court. They are not so young that they cannot understand the severity of felonious crimes. There is no grey area when dealing with murder, rape, or violent crimes. A 15 year old should definitely know that these are very definitely and unequivocally wrong and punishable crimes. In this age of #MeToo, media coverage and social media coverage, all teens should have a very strong idea that any time of non-consensual acts of violence are very wrong. There have been dozens of hazing crimes that have gone national in the last few years and it should be obvious that hazing is not a joke, or acceptable in any way. Just Google "hazing crimes" and you'll get lists and most of these perps are being charged in court for felony crimes. If these are honor roll students, they know what that means. If the media and defense are going to try to postulate that these are honor roll students who are "good kids" then they should be smart enough to know better.

This correctly deserves to be in the adult court system. If this were something like shoplifting, B&E, or some other victimless crime, I agree that 15 is young to be able to discern the severity of a victimless crime, but it is not too young to know how wrong a violent crime against a victim is. There is a very good reason for the automatic waive-up rule for serious crimes and it definitely applies in this case.

If these boys had forced an underaged girl into the high school locker room and sexually assaulted her, would you think that this was a juvenile court system crime? If you do, then I question your own moral standards and am glad that wiser and more mature individuals have crafted our court guidelines. There is nothing youthful or innocent about first degree rape.

Yes.

To repeat: it's the juvenile justice system because the alleged crime-committers are juveniles, not because the crimes are non-serious.

Thankfully the law doesn’t agree with you and these sick bastards are being charged as adults.