Extreme resentment over mental load

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

NP. That’s a unicorn family. Many of us were born when men couldn’t be in the birthing room. Many of us also grew up with abusive and/or neglectful fathers and mothers.

Your presenting that as the norm is really damaging.

You presenting parents as abusive and/or neglectful as the norm is really damaging. If you don't know that is *not* the norm, please seek therapy.

What that PP is trying to say is most of the fathers today are much better fathers than those from a generation or two ago. The problem, is for better or for worse, parents have decided to do much more than parents did a two generations ago so the increased efforts are still not measuring up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

NP. That’s a unicorn family. Many of us were born when men couldn’t be in the birthing room. Many of us also grew up with abusive and/or neglectful fathers and mothers.

Your presenting that as the norm is really damaging.

The PPP presenting a functional family with kids, per someone’s inquiry about adulthood.

It’s not a unicorn family. A functioning father and mother are able to do all of that via good communications, tag teaming, dividing & conquering & communicating, and staying involved in the family life.

A dysfunctional couple things are ignored, don’t last minute, skipped, dumped on the sole functional person who can only do their best, and the kids take it on the chin. In all areas (school, emotionally, development, health, life skills).

Nothing new here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

NP. That’s a unicorn family. Many of us were born when men couldn’t be in the birthing room. Many of us also grew up with abusive and/or neglectful fathers and mothers.

Your presenting that as the norm is really damaging.

You presenting parents as abusive and/or neglectful as the norm is really damaging. If you don't know that is *not* the norm, please seek therapy.

What that PP is trying to say is most of the fathers today are much better fathers than those from a generation or two ago. The problem, is for better or for worse, parents have decided to do much more than parents did a two generations ago so the increased efforts are still not measuring up.

+1. If you look, the time women spend on childcare went down and men's went up until the early 2000s, when women's time took off again. If we lived like the 60s, women wouldn't have much to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How can you say the guy naively agrees to the arrangement when his vision is closer to the reality in the majority of homes? The women are the naive ones here, building castles in the air and refusing to face the reality that all else being equal, women will bear the brunt of household responsibility.

His vision to do nothing and be a lousy father, husband and homeowner?!! lol.

Yeah, why didn’t he just fess up when dating!

Instead we have threads like this one and nonsense from PP, and decreasing marriage rates.

I’d say the feedback loop is working loud and clear.

If he did nothing, he won't still be married.

Women should stop lying. If you keep someone around, it is because they are useful. The only exception is your children. You are benefiting from these relationships while calling these men useless.

Hey PP, what do the family courts think about that? Fathers who do nothing, or worse?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

NP. That’s a unicorn family. Many of us were born when men couldn’t be in the birthing room. Many of us also grew up with abusive and/or neglectful fathers and mothers.

Your presenting that as the norm is really damaging.

The PPP presenting a functional family with kids, per someone’s inquiry about adulthood.

It’s not a unicorn family. A functioning father and mother are able to do all of that via good communications, tag teaming, dividing & conquering & communicating, and staying involved in the family life.

A dysfunctional couple things are ignored, don’t last minute, skipped, dumped on the sole functional person who can only do their best, and the kids take it on the chin. In all areas (school, emotionally, development, health, life skills).

Nothing new here.

If there were so many "functional" families, how did all these women end up with "dysfunctional" ones? It's either that these functional families were few or the women complaining here did not prioritize the characteristics of men from functional families. In either case, self reflection and strategizing is needed instead of putting 100% of the blame on their husbands.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

NP. That’s a unicorn family. Many of us were born when men couldn’t be in the birthing room. Many of us also grew up with abusive and/or neglectful fathers and mothers.

Your presenting that as the norm is really damaging.

You presenting parents as abusive and/or neglectful as the norm is really damaging. If you don't know that is *not* the norm, please seek therapy.

What that PP is trying to say is most of the fathers today are much better fathers than those from a generation or two ago. The problem, is for better or for worse, parents have decided to do much more than parents did a two generations ago so the increased efforts are still not measuring up.

So then don’t do the extra. Why are parents deciding to do more than they did generations ago if they can’t handle it? Know what you can handle and drop the rest.

[Anonymous]

I can see how someone from a family with no mental disorders or deadweight males may think a dude with a good job, education, fun dates, SAHM mom history, and says he wants a family would work out.

Most people revert back to their mothers and fathers good or bad behaviors once kids arrive.

[Anonymous]

Raising kids reveals your worst habits, fast.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

NP. That’s a unicorn family. Many of us were born when men couldn’t be in the birthing room. Many of us also grew up with abusive and/or neglectful fathers and mothers.

Your presenting that as the norm is really damaging.

You presenting parents as abusive and/or neglectful as the norm is really damaging. If you don't know that is *not* the norm, please seek therapy.

What that PP is trying to say is most of the fathers today are much better fathers than those from a generation or two ago. The problem, is for better or for worse, parents have decided to do much more than parents did a two generations ago so the increased efforts are still not measuring up.

So then don’t do the extra. Why are parents deciding to do more than they did generations ago if they can’t handle it? Know what you can handle and drop the rest.

+1. My kids aren’t in travel sports because we know we can’t handle the logistics of that and keep our sanity. We know that means our kids won’t get on to the high school sports teams, but we figured they can choose less competitive sports/solo sports when the time comes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

NP. That’s a unicorn family. Many of us were born when men couldn’t be in the birthing room. Many of us also grew up with abusive and/or neglectful fathers and mothers.

Your presenting that as the norm is really damaging.

You presenting parents as abusive and/or neglectful as the norm is really damaging. If you don't know that is *not* the norm, please seek therapy.

What that PP is trying to say is most of the fathers today are much better fathers than those from a generation or two ago. The problem, is for better or for worse, parents have decided to do much more than parents did a two generations ago so the increased efforts are still not measuring up.

So then don’t do the extra. Why are parents deciding to do more than they did generations ago if they can’t handle it? Know what you can handle and drop the rest.

Screens and iPhone sitters can also help nowadays! For any age child! No need to make any activities or arrangements. ObamaPhones are feee too!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

NP. That’s a unicorn family. Many of us were born when men couldn’t be in the birthing room. Many of us also grew up with abusive and/or neglectful fathers and mothers.

Your presenting that as the norm is really damaging.

You presenting parents as abusive and/or neglectful as the norm is really damaging. If you don't know that is *not* the norm, please seek therapy.

What that PP is trying to say is most of the fathers today are much better fathers than those from a generation or two ago. The problem, is for better or for worse, parents have decided to do much more than parents did a two generations ago so the increased efforts are still not measuring up.

So then don’t do the extra. Why are parents deciding to do more than they did generations ago if they can’t handle it? Know what you can handle and drop the rest.

+1. My kids aren’t in travel sports because we know we can’t handle the logistics of that and keep our sanity. We know that means our kids won’t get on to the high school sports teams, but we figured they can choose less competitive sports/solo sports when the time comes.

Travel sports and putting up a Christmas tree (if that’s a holiday your family celebrates) isn’t even close.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

NP. That’s a unicorn family. Many of us were born when men couldn’t be in the birthing room. Many of us also grew up with abusive and/or neglectful fathers and mothers.

Your presenting that as the norm is really damaging.

The PPP presenting a functional family with kids, per someone’s inquiry about adulthood.

It’s not a unicorn family. A functioning father and mother are able to do all of that via good communications, tag teaming, dividing & conquering & communicating, and staying involved in the family life.

A dysfunctional couple things are ignored, don’t last minute, skipped, dumped on the sole functional person who can only do their best, and the kids take it on the chin. In all areas (school, emotionally, development, health, life skills).

Nothing new here.

If there were so many "functional" families, how did all these women end up with "dysfunctional" ones? It's either that these functional families were few or the women complaining here did not prioritize the characteristics of men from functional families. In either case, self reflection and strategizing is needed instead of putting 100% of the blame on their husbands.

Once kids are in the scene the power and control play is: the dysfunctional partner drives the marriage dynamic and controls the potential of the family and kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How can you say the guy naively agrees to the arrangement when his vision is closer to the reality in the majority of homes? The women are the naive ones here, building castles in the air and refusing to face the reality that all else being equal, women will bear the brunt of household responsibility.

His vision to do nothing and be a lousy father, husband and homeowner?!! lol.

Yeah, why didn’t he just fess up when dating!

Instead we have threads like this one and nonsense from PP, and decreasing marriage rates.

I’d say the feedback loop is working loud and clear.

If he did nothing, he won't still be married.

Women should stop lying. If you keep someone around, it is because they are useful. The only exception is your children. You are benefiting from these relationships while calling these men useless.

Hey PP, what do the family courts think about that? Fathers who do nothing, or worse?

I wouldn't know what family courts think about fathers who do nothing because I have never met a father who does nothing. I have a divorced sister and a divorced friend, and their exes are very involved with the children, even more so now that they are divorced than when they were married.

If you are referring to physically abusive fathers, the court does not grant them unsupervised visits. The court does not always get it right because they are not omnipresent. But when abuse is determined, that spouse gets limited, supervised visitation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

NP. That’s a unicorn family. Many of us were born when men couldn’t be in the birthing room. Many of us also grew up with abusive and/or neglectful fathers and mothers.

Your presenting that as the norm is really damaging.

You presenting parents as abusive and/or neglectful as the norm is really damaging. If you don't know that is *not* the norm, please seek therapy.

What that PP is trying to say is most of the fathers today are much better fathers than those from a generation or two ago. The problem, is for better or for worse, parents have decided to do much more than parents did a two generations ago so the increased efforts are still not measuring up.

So then don’t do the extra. Why are parents deciding to do more than they did generations ago if they can’t handle it? Know what you can handle and drop the rest.

Screens and iPhone sitters can also help nowadays! For any age child! No need to make any activities or arrangements. ObamaPhones are feee too!

14+ hours of screen time a day work well for Dads too, check it out!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

NP. That’s a unicorn family. Many of us were born when men couldn’t be in the birthing room. Many of us also grew up with abusive and/or neglectful fathers and mothers.

Your presenting that as the norm is really damaging.

The PPP presenting a functional family with kids, per someone’s inquiry about adulthood.

It’s not a unicorn family. A functioning father and mother are able to do all of that via good communications, tag teaming, dividing & conquering & communicating, and staying involved in the family life.

A dysfunctional couple things are ignored, don’t last minute, skipped, dumped on the sole functional person who can only do their best, and the kids take it on the chin. In all areas (school, emotionally, development, health, life skills).

Nothing new here.

If there were so many "functional" families, how did all these women end up with "dysfunctional" ones? It's either that these functional families were few or the women complaining here did not prioritize the characteristics of men from functional families. In either case, self reflection and strategizing is needed instead of putting 100% of the blame on their husbands.

Once kids are in the scene the power and control play is: the dysfunctional partner drives the marriage dynamic and controls the potential of the family and kids.

Why? Why not divorce and give the kid one functional home as an example for them to emulate when and if they choose to get married? And how did they end up with dysfunctional partners if there were so many functional ones? If functional is the norm, why are all these women ending up with the abnormal?