Extreme resentment over mental load

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

Would OP be satisfied if all her DH did was a last minute Target run for action figures?

I think she would be satisfied if he volunteered to go and he knew what he wanted to get.

She said that she is upset that he didn’t volunteer to do anything.

We have no idea what happened behind the scenes with PP’s parents. We have no idea if her mother told him to go to Target and what to buy.

Action figure PP here. My dad definitely knew what to buy, because he would take the few minutes to notice us and the toys with which we played. That's why I have good memories. Christmas was that time they could take a break and show us that they did know who we were, even though they were normally away so much working. It didn't take a huge amount of time or money.

No offense, PP, but you probably have no idea about the Christmas conversations and delegating that may or may not have occurred between your parents. The point IMO is that they made it work in order to give you a good childhood and happy memories. Who CARES if Mom was the “project manager” or Dad was, or if they both magically manage to do exactly the right 50% with no reminders or delegating whatsoever?

What a strange response. You don’t think that as a kid I’d know if my dad knows what toys I play with? Kids aren’t dumb. Of course I wouldn’t have known all the conversations and delegations, but I would certainly notice if all the work is primarily done by one parent and the second has no clue what is going on. And I would definitely notice if the parent doing all the work resented the situation. That sort of thing is extremely obvious to kids because parents usually do a poor job of hiding it.

DP. The standards on fathers today are higher than our own fathers (as it should be). I doubt mothers who were raising kids in the He-man/Little Pony would be as resentful for the mental load. What would your mother say? I had to say - you go to Kmart and buy actions figures, I’ll finish dinner and wrap when you get home. He didn’t just volunteer? Or know which task to take? Would she resent that? Seems unlikely for that generation.

But that’s what we’re talking about today. Also - children are very naive about the behind the scenes discussions between parents.

My mother was an 80s housewife without a job. She DGAF if she had to buy Christmas presents and plan the vacation. That was her job. Now I have a FT job AND still have to manage the vacation and buy presents.

You don't need a full time job. You want it. You don't need Christmas presents and vacation. You want them. You saw what it took for your parents to make marriage work but you decided you were smarter and better and could work miracles. Who did you model your marriage after? Some TV show couple? You are not superwoman, and your DH is not superman. Welcome to reality!

I'm with you on the agency argument, for the most part, but honestly? If you want to have kids and own a home in DC, either your spouse has to be crazy wealthy, or you both have to work. The diminished mental load from working part-time vs. full is negligible, as you still have to coordinate schedules, budget for work-related expenses, etc. The alternative is not working outside the home at all and staying home as an "80s housewife" or the like. It's not "without a job" but it's without paid employment and the financial options and self-esteem that go with having a salary of your own.

In short, there still isn't a great option for women. We need financial incentives and benefits for staying at home to raise our children ourselves. Never gonna happen.

Glad you acknowledged that these are all wants. You do not have to stay in DC. You do not need to have children. We can negotiate better financial incentives and benefits with our spouses in prenups, but we chose not to because we are desperate to get married and repeat cycles that we know were disadvantageous to our mothers.

For example, women can negotiate prenups stipulating that men give them 100k in a separate non- premarital account before each child is born so they have some independence while staying home at the early stages of child development. Options like this are rarely considered because women have chosen to be delusional about the reality of raising children in a capitalist society. It is easier to pretend that love will conquer all instead of negotiating marriage like the contract that it is.

Additionally, the price of housing in DC and other big cities is high because there is a demand at that price. If many families had only one working spouse, few will be able to pay those prices, and the prices will go down.

I mean, if you are trying to demonstrate there is no battle of the sexes, you aren’t doing a great job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How can you say the guy naively agrees to the arrangement when his vision is closer to the reality in the majority of homes? The women are the naive ones here, building castles in the air and refusing to face the reality that all else being equal, women will bear the brunt of household responsibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

Would OP be satisfied if all her DH did was a last minute Target run for action figures?

I think she would be satisfied if he volunteered to go and he knew what he wanted to get.

She said that she is upset that he didn’t volunteer to do anything.

We have no idea what happened behind the scenes with PP’s parents. We have no idea if her mother told him to go to Target and what to buy.

Action figure PP here. My dad definitely knew what to buy, because he would take the few minutes to notice us and the toys with which we played. That's why I have good memories. Christmas was that time they could take a break and show us that they did know who we were, even though they were normally away so much working. It didn't take a huge amount of time or money.

No offense, PP, but you probably have no idea about the Christmas conversations and delegating that may or may not have occurred between your parents. The point IMO is that they made it work in order to give you a good childhood and happy memories. Who CARES if Mom was the “project manager” or Dad was, or if they both magically manage to do exactly the right 50% with no reminders or delegating whatsoever?

What a strange response. You don’t think that as a kid I’d know if my dad knows what toys I play with? Kids aren’t dumb. Of course I wouldn’t have known all the conversations and delegations, but I would certainly notice if all the work is primarily done by one parent and the second has no clue what is going on. And I would definitely notice if the parent doing all the work resented the situation. That sort of thing is extremely obvious to kids because parents usually do a poor job of hiding it.

DP. The standards on fathers today are higher than our own fathers (as it should be). I doubt mothers who were raising kids in the He-man/Little Pony would be as resentful for the mental load. What would your mother say? I had to say - you go to Kmart and buy actions figures, I’ll finish dinner and wrap when you get home. He didn’t just volunteer? Or know which task to take? Would she resent that? Seems unlikely for that generation.

But that’s what we’re talking about today. Also - children are very naive about the behind the scenes discussions between parents.

My mother was an 80s housewife without a job. She DGAF if she had to buy Christmas presents and plan the vacation. That was her job. Now I have a FT job AND still have to manage the vacation and buy presents.

You don't need a full time job. You want it. You don't need Christmas presents and vacation. You want them. You saw what it took for your parents to make marriage work but you decided you were smarter and better and could work miracles. Who did you model your marriage after? Some TV show couple? You are not superwoman, and your DH is not superman. Welcome to reality!

I'm with you on the agency argument, for the most part, but honestly? If you want to have kids and own a home in DC, either your spouse has to be crazy wealthy, or you both have to work. The diminished mental load from working part-time vs. full is negligible, as you still have to coordinate schedules, budget for work-related expenses, etc. The alternative is not working outside the home at all and staying home as an "80s housewife" or the like. It's not "without a job" but it's without paid employment and the financial options and self-esteem that go with having a salary of your own.

In short, there still isn't a great option for women. We need financial incentives and benefits for staying at home to raise our children ourselves. Never gonna happen.

Glad you acknowledged that these are all wants. You do not have to stay in DC. You do not need to have children. We can negotiate better financial incentives and benefits with our spouses in prenups, but we chose not to because we are desperate to get married and repeat cycles that we know were disadvantageous to our mothers.

For example, women can negotiate prenups stipulating that men give them 100k in a separate non- premarital account before each child is born so they have some independence while staying home at the early stages of child development. Options like this are rarely considered because women have chosen to be delusional about the reality of raising children in a capitalist society. It is easier to pretend that love will conquer all instead of negotiating marriage like the contract that it is.

Additionally, the price of housing in DC and other big cities is high because there is a demand at that price. If many families had only one working spouse, few will be able to pay those prices, and the prices will go down.

I mean, if you are trying to demonstrate there is no battle of the sexes, you aren’t doing a great job.

There is a battle, and if this emotional labor is a big deal to women, then women are losing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How can you say the guy naively agrees to the arrangement when his vision is closer to the reality in the majority of homes? The women are the naive ones here, building castles in the air and refusing to face the reality that all else being equal, women will bear the brunt of household responsibility.

His vision to do nothing and be a lousy father, husband and homeowner?!! lol.

Yeah, why didn’t he just fess up when dating!

Instead we have threads like this one and nonsense from PP, and decreasing marriage rates.

I’d say the feedback loop is working loud and clear.

[Anonymous]

For the first time in forever… the truth is out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

Would OP be satisfied if all her DH did was a last minute Target run for action figures?

I think she would be satisfied if he volunteered to go and he knew what he wanted to get.

She said that she is upset that he didn’t volunteer to do anything.

We have no idea what happened behind the scenes with PP’s parents. We have no idea if her mother told him to go to Target and what to buy.

Action figure PP here. My dad definitely knew what to buy, because he would take the few minutes to notice us and the toys with which we played. That's why I have good memories. Christmas was that time they could take a break and show us that they did know who we were, even though they were normally away so much working. It didn't take a huge amount of time or money.

No offense, PP, but you probably have no idea about the Christmas conversations and delegating that may or may not have occurred between your parents. The point IMO is that they made it work in order to give you a good childhood and happy memories. Who CARES if Mom was the “project manager” or Dad was, or if they both magically manage to do exactly the right 50% with no reminders or delegating whatsoever?

What a strange response. You don’t think that as a kid I’d know if my dad knows what toys I play with? Kids aren’t dumb. Of course I wouldn’t have known all the conversations and delegations, but I would certainly notice if all the work is primarily done by one parent and the second has no clue what is going on. And I would definitely notice if the parent doing all the work resented the situation. That sort of thing is extremely obvious to kids because parents usually do a poor job of hiding it.

DP. The standards on fathers today are higher than our own fathers (as it should be). I doubt mothers who were raising kids in the He-man/Little Pony would be as resentful for the mental load. What would your mother say? I had to say - you go to Kmart and buy actions figures, I’ll finish dinner and wrap when you get home. He didn’t just volunteer? Or know which task to take? Would she resent that? Seems unlikely for that generation.

But that’s what we’re talking about today. Also - children are very naive about the behind the scenes discussions between parents.

My mother was an 80s housewife without a job. She DGAF if she had to buy Christmas presents and plan the vacation. That was her job. Now I have a FT job AND still have to manage the vacation and buy presents.

You don't need a full time job. You want it. You don't need Christmas presents and vacation. You want them. You saw what it took for your parents to make marriage work but you decided you were smarter and better and could work miracles. Who did you model your marriage after? Some TV show couple? You are not superwoman, and your DH is not superman. Welcome to reality!

I'm with you on the agency argument, for the most part, but honestly? If you want to have kids and own a home in DC, either your spouse has to be crazy wealthy, or you both have to work. The diminished mental load from working part-time vs. full is negligible, as you still have to coordinate schedules, budget for work-related expenses, etc. The alternative is not working outside the home at all and staying home as an "80s housewife" or the like. It's not "without a job" but it's without paid employment and the financial options and self-esteem that go with having a salary of your own.

In short, there still isn't a great option for women. We need financial incentives and benefits for staying at home to raise our children ourselves. Never gonna happen.

Glad you acknowledged that these are all wants. You do not have to stay in DC. You do not need to have children. We can negotiate better financial incentives and benefits with our spouses in prenups, but we chose not to because we are desperate to get married and repeat cycles that we know were disadvantageous to our mothers.

For example, women can negotiate prenups stipulating that men give them 100k in a separate non- premarital account before each child is born so they have some independence while staying home at the early stages of child development. Options like this are rarely considered because women have chosen to be delusional about the reality of raising children in a capitalist society. It is easier to pretend that love will conquer all instead of negotiating marriage like the contract that it is.

Additionally, the price of housing in DC and other big cities is high because there is a demand at that price. If many families had only one working spouse, few will be able to pay those prices, and the prices will go down.

I mean, if you are trying to demonstrate there is no battle of the sexes, you aren’t doing a great job.

There is a battle, and if this emotional labor is a big deal to women, then women are losing.

The children are losing too, the ones who are down a parent (so to speak).
A physically present but deadweight father is worse than a physically absent one. More work for the wife and more destabilizing neglect patterns for the children.

[Anonymous]

Divorce.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

Would OP be satisfied if all her DH did was a last minute Target run for action figures?

I think she would be satisfied if he volunteered to go and he knew what he wanted to get.

She said that she is upset that he didn’t volunteer to do anything.

We have no idea what happened behind the scenes with PP’s parents. We have no idea if her mother told him to go to Target and what to buy.

Action figure PP here. My dad definitely knew what to buy, because he would take the few minutes to notice us and the toys with which we played. That's why I have good memories. Christmas was that time they could take a break and show us that they did know who we were, even though they were normally away so much working. It didn't take a huge amount of time or money.

No offense, PP, but you probably have no idea about the Christmas conversations and delegating that may or may not have occurred between your parents. The point IMO is that they made it work in order to give you a good childhood and happy memories. Who CARES if Mom was the “project manager” or Dad was, or if they both magically manage to do exactly the right 50% with no reminders or delegating whatsoever?

What a strange response. You don’t think that as a kid I’d know if my dad knows what toys I play with? Kids aren’t dumb. Of course I wouldn’t have known all the conversations and delegations, but I would certainly notice if all the work is primarily done by one parent and the second has no clue what is going on. And I would definitely notice if the parent doing all the work resented the situation. That sort of thing is extremely obvious to kids because parents usually do a poor job of hiding it.

No one said that, dummy. I’m saying as a kid you wouldn’t know if your mom had to say to your dad, every single year, hey go to the store and get the kids some Christmas presents.

OP isn’t talking about doing all the work. She’s talking about the “mental load” of delegating half the work to her husband. And no, kids wouldn’t notice that.

Your response isn’t strange, it’s painfully stupid. Or just disingenuous.

Kids don’t remember anything much.

They’ll have to grow up and set their own boundaries, after they realize one of their so called parents is utterly unreliable and ego centric. Hopefully by then they’ll grow out of lapping up the sparse attention they occasionally get from the neglectful selfish parent too.

Now THIS is a strange response!

Comment makes sense.

Kids with a neglectful parent may need theory later.

Kids with a neglectful parent are so happy when said parent finally gives them some attention that they fawn over it. Then go back to being neglected.

Typical push /pull dynamic from a narcissist. The therapist can help the adult child see that pattern and how to protect themselves.

Mom being project manager doesn’t mean Dad is neglectful, JFC. It’s probably worse for a kid to grow up with a hypercritical mother who goes scorched earth on a person’s entire worth as a human being if they’re not 100% perfect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

NP. That’s a unicorn family. Many of us were born when men couldn’t be in the birthing room. Many of us also grew up with abusive and/or neglectful fathers and mothers.

Your presenting that as the norm is really damaging.

[Anonymous]

I’m pp because nobody can do life perfectly all the time. That’s disordered thinking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

Speaking of an underlying big problem: You are being very dishonest or naive if you are implying that this was the norm when you grew up. You would have had to be a willfully blind to not realize that your father was the exception and not the rule.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

NP. That’s a unicorn family. Many of us were born when men couldn’t be in the birthing room. Many of us also grew up with abusive and/or neglectful fathers and mothers.

Your presenting that as the norm is really damaging.

You presenting parents as abusive and/or neglectful as the norm is really damaging. If you don't know that is *not* the norm, please seek therapy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How can you say the guy naively agrees to the arrangement when his vision is closer to the reality in the majority of homes? The women are the naive ones here, building castles in the air and refusing to face the reality that all else being equal, women will bear the brunt of household responsibility.

His vision to do nothing and be a lousy father, husband and homeowner?!! lol.

Yeah, why didn’t he just fess up when dating!

Instead we have threads like this one and nonsense from PP, and decreasing marriage rates.

I’d say the feedback loop is working loud and clear.

If he did nothing, he won't still be married. Women should stop lying. If you keep someone around, it is because they are useful. The only exception is your children. You are benefiting from these relationships while calling these men useless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

My parents were immigrants who worked themselves to the bone. We'd haul down the plastic Christmas tree from the attic, my brother and I would wrap the lights and tinsel, hang the few ornaments while my dad ran to the toy store to get a He-Man action figure for my brother and a My Little Pony for me. My mom would wrap them and stick them under the tree, and call it a day. Good times, and great memories.

Sounds to me like both of your parents participated.
I think OP is resentful because she has to do everything alone.

OP is not doing everything alone, though. If OP was the mom in the above example, she would be whining about having to remind her DH that it was time to haul the tree down from the attic and ask him to run to the store for the gifts. Her DH does participate. She is whining about her “mental load” which is not really a thing if your actual concern is the kids.

Okay. I literally don’t know anyone who whines because their husband immediately does the thing they asked as soon as they ask and with enthusiasm.
This would be like a man complaining that he always has to initiate sex, but every time he does, his wife gives him an enthusiastic blowjob.

What women complain about is more the equivalent of a man complaining that he has to initiate sex, and every time he does, she will lay there like a starfish and ask how much longer it’s going to take.

But that’s *literally* what this thread is about. Move the goalposts all you want, you’re still wrong.

Even in a modern marriage with men actively participating, it’s almost always up to the DW to assign tasks and make all household decisions. Yet my DH can manage a complex job with many direct reports. I don’t believe he can’t manage buying teacher gifts or signing up for aftercare. Instead, he doesn’t care and knows I’ll do it. What this means is that I have an extra burden he doesn’t have - all the admin work. We both have FT jobs and present for the kids and then I have an admin job on top of it all.

Men are great at prioritizing themselves and their careers.

And you knew this when you married him. How was his father? Did you think he was magically going to be different from the way you and he were brought up? You chose to marry him and accept this.

No, I didn’t. There wasn’t much at all to plan. Before we kids we didn’t need to contribute to holiday gifts, sign up for swim lessons so our child doesn’t drown, sign up for aftercare, etc. I’m handling 10-15 admin tasks each week related to kids. Pre kids we were equals.

Yes you did. You chose to be in denial. Who were your role models as far as marriage was concerned? Which couples did you look at and go "I want my marriage to be like theirs"? Did you investigate his family's dynamics? Did you take a step back and look at yours? What did you put in place to avoid the obvious?

You had all the evidence about what was going to happen based on what was happening around you, but you chose to take his word for it. Why don't you take your employer's word that they will pay you a fair salary? Why do you sign an offer letter with your salary and benefits?

You wanted marriage and children more than you wanted an equal mental load, so you did not bother to properly bargain/negotiate and put provisions in place for these things. Now that you have gotten what you wanted, you are now focused on things that were not so important at the time.

That’s not what’s going on here and you know it.

The guy naively said yeah I want kids, I want to be a father, I want to own a house, I want to be married, I want to do all these adult things.

Then when these adult things arrived, he shrunk back, avoided doing them and ruined his marriage and family.

How do you define adult things, and again which marriages are you modeling? Which husbands did you see doing "adult" things when you were growing up?

You need married with kids adult things defined? Well there’s an underlying big problem.

Maintain property in good shape.
Emotional support of all family members
Health, wellness, and nutrition for all family members
Teaching life skills, parenting and disciplining children
Planning, selection and logistics of family and kid activities.
Educational support and tracking for kids.
Age and weather appreciate clothing and gear for family
Extended family and community socializing and holiday traditions.
Help provide a foundation in ones faith and beliefs
Household financial mgmt- saving, investing, paying bills and taxes.

And yes my father and brothers do all of the above plus worked fulltime. But it was always clear, they would stop their work to answer a child or adult child’s matters. They had friend groups, lifelong sports, hosted July 4th and Xmas parties. Very full and well rounded lives.

NP. That’s a unicorn family. Many of us were born when men couldn’t be in the birthing room. Many of us also grew up with abusive and/or neglectful fathers and mothers.

Your presenting that as the norm is really damaging.

You presenting parents as abusive and/or neglectful as the norm is really damaging. If you don't know that is *not* the norm, please seek therapy.

Not buying a green sweater or not baking cookies for school is only "abusive" if you suffer from an anxiety disorder.