Anonymous wrote:Ceasefire sounds well and good, but will not help get rid of Hamas because they don’t negotiate.
Hostage negotiatons were ongoing
This stopped when Israel started the bombing and ground operations
The hostage situation is terrible, which is what Hamas wants. "human leverage" right?
Nobody on this thread is pro Hamas. Some may be pro Palestinian. Nobody thinks the atrocities of Hamas are ok. The question is how do you deal with the reality of Hamas having de facto control over Gaza.
Some think Israel has to respond by treating Gaza as an independent nation that they are at war with. And that casualties are just something that happens in war. But this is not the situation. You are not dealing with a nation state with resources and responsibilities to its countrymen. You are dealing with a terrorist organization that has gone to ground in a part of your territory that houses an oppressed minority. In the end, you have a larger responsibility to the civilians you are killing.
Very nice. But ultimately says nothing about what Israel should do.
You have asked this question and haven’t like the answer. Ceasefire.
Um, no. Israel killed dozens of Palestinian civilians earlier in 2023, before October 7. But that’s just “business as usual” so no one is supposed to care.
Hamas has been killing Jews since way, way before October.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.
I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.
I have said that many times.
I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.
I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.
People have said “I don’t care.”
So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.
You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either
And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.
I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.
And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
Oh god. Here you pro-apartheid folks go again. We must have a mandatory preamble to everything. How about all you pro-apartheid era start with whether you believe ethnic cleansing is justified by Israel and whether “never again “ only applies to European Jews, huh?
Answer that and lead with it every time
I asked you a question first. Stop deflecting.
Your question is BS pro apartheid censorship. When you don’t have a point, you pivot and demand that everyone swear allegiance to Israel. It’s fascist tactics and I’m over it. You guys have been exposed
Do you support genocide as long as the dead are brown?
Arabs aren’t brown, dumbass.
You clearly don’t know any Arabs from your home in Maryland. My family all disagree with you, but rich white ladies csll the shots, right?
I’m not white, but nice try.
Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews look nearly identical.
Israel is being controlled and operated by European Jews who survived the European genocide not Sephardic Jews.
80% of all Jews are Ashkenazi. That’s what you mean with your pejorative “European.” We are half European, half Middle Eastern.
Yes. The middle eastern half is closely genetically related to Palestinians. And the European half is bc of inter-breeding with European countries. What does this mean to you? To me it means that Palestinians have ancient historical ties to the land that Israel sits on today. I’m not saying Israel shouldn’t exist. But I am saying that Palestinians have a right to exist as well. Do I know how to achieve this - no. But I do know that co tinier bombing and killing people with a right to live where they are living is not the answer.
And Jews don’t have historical ties to the land? What BS that you acknowledge one but not the other.
Please read my post again. That is not what o wrote. I said “I’m not saying Israel shouldn’t exist. But I am saying that Palestinians have a right to exist also.” In other words. I’m acknowledging both have rights and both populations are closely genetically related (except the Jewish half that left and interbred). It seems you are the one acknowledging one and not the other of you mean that Palestinians don’t have a right to the land but Jews do?
Palestinians are the obstacle to peaceful coexistence with Israel. They won’t accept it. That’s why they embrace Hamas instead of building cooperative civil and economic institutions.
Anonymous wrote:I see Israel as the underdog—surrounded by enemies, hated by the UN, the list goes on. It really is fighting a multi-front war.
That’s quite the definition of underdog.
The country with the most sophisticated military in the region that also happens to be closely allied with the country boasting the most powerful military in the world. And they’re fighting an impoverished population that doesn’t even control their own water.
I don’t think underdog means what you think it means.
+1
Exactly.
Don't start a war if you don't want to fight one particularly if you are impoverished.
I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...
Wait what? What are you talking about? I am confused. This isn't the American South where African Americans (my people) at times were called uppity if they were successful, your comparison doesn't make any sense. You are so used to use our struggle to try to justify whatever it is you think you are going through that you are now getting sloppy.
Restatement: I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...
The fact that one diverse group was subjected to inhumanity across hundreds of years of slavery, having been shoved into the ground using this same phrase doesn't mean that another group cannot also suffer a grotesque fate (specifically, the sustained, humiliating, intentionally provocative order by "their betters" to accept their station in society and STFU about it, lest they get a good and thorough beating). You don't have exclusive rights to being marginalized by bad people. Today, the lynching is delivered at arms length via gleaming F-22 fighter jets that one side is gifted by guess who?
Uncle Sam, back at it again!
Again, you missed the whole point of "don't start a war you don't want to fight"--the point is go fight the war but don't complain when who you fight, fights back. Again, to cheaply gain sympathy from African Americans, you are making a comparison that literally makes no sense in the context of the conversation. No one is talking about no keep yourself in your place (yes I am using a double negative like a good black person when we are really trying to emphasize something by using AAVE intentionally)
Those "complaining" are not the actors in the drama. The complainers are the rest of the civilized world. Who do you imagine ISN'T howling at what's been occurring for the past three weeks?
The complainers didn't start the war. They're also not fighting the war. But they are well within the bounds of society to seek and end to the atrocities that have taken place on both side in the past three weeks. They don't need your approval, nor anyone's.
Look, if you like to see or hear that humans are being blown apart every day for three weeks, I guess you have to look within and find what makes you actually tick because it sure as hell isn't compassion.
This is not true, you act as if the Palestinians have had this immense power to galvanize the world to share their opinion and that is not true. Despite what you think this issue is not at the forefront of people's minds. In other words, the world population doesn't hate Jews as much as you do, you might think people are sitting around so irritated by Jews as much as you are but that is not true. I am learning that anti semetics use this language a lot, that the whole world know this or that about jews. Their hate is so insidious they think it is natural and that everyone feels it. In any event, even if the whole world hated Isreal, that doesn't mean that feeling is right (but again I don't think this is true anyway)
Seriously, what is wrong with you? Why does everything distill into "You hate the Jews"? This pathological need to label others as anti-semitic, without even knowing who they are, what they believe, or anything else is staggering to me. Nothing in anything I've written here or elsewhere in my lifetime expressed hatred for Jewish people. Do you just assign hatred whenever someone doesn't fold in the echo chamber and calls BS?
I’ve read much of the original thread and the arguments for Israel boil down to:
Well what do YOU think Israel should do? (Respect the Palestinians in the first place and not empower Hamas)
And
Objecting to Israel is antisemitism.
Everything in the 1000+ page thread boils down to these two sentiments. It’s very hard work to justify the collective punishment and annihilation of 2 million people, and posters here are lazy.
Respect them in the first place or you would have not been terrorized--sounding like street thugs who are always talking about pride and honor if you disrespect me I will cap you! Life isn't a 90s rap video Palestine supporters. Yeah so pin the post above so we can all see that yes, they see the Hamas attack as justified, because they were disrespected.
Nobody said the attack was justified. Any people oppressed enough will revolt. This overreaction will have generational repercussions. Unless it succeeds with a full genocide somebody will survive and remember. This is bad and I do blame the PM
Hamas massively overplayed their hand and will be mopped up. Their "friends" in the region are few and far between. The way that 'support' played out in the West was pretty revealing and did no great service to the actual, long term Palestinian cause. There will be no genocide of Palestinian people, but what a misstep. I hope Palestinians stop squandering time for their kids, and kids kids, and get back to the negotiating table when Hamas is gone. I hope they never again make the mistake of thinking that terror (through terror groups they vote for) offers more than the shortest leverage.
If you think they will be “mopped up” you don’t have an understanding of the region - and this will pave the way for more hatred of Israel in the region (it is already extremely hated by everyone else in the region), and it will pave the way for MORE extremist groups. Just watch. Y’all are just bloodthirsty and love seeing dead Palestinians so you’re getting off on this trauma porn. It’s weird and sadistic.
I don't do trauma porn actually. Maybe you do?
My spouse has mopped up many a terrorist. I have a very good understanding of the region. More will pop up, they always do, different name same dark vapor, unless the Palestinians prevent it. That's how these things work. Do you think the history of Palestinians in the region so far has been one of vigilance against terrorists? I'd suggest they find their MLK or Gandhi and make progress.
I didn’t realize your dependapotamus status granted you membership to the CFR. Impressive.
Anonymous wrote:IDF has eliminated Hamas’ commander of naval forces (Gaza Brigade). Not totally clear, but the strike looks like it was on a structure that sat among a row of other structure: That’s a precision strike, but of course, there could be damage to an adjacent structure— like a block of, say, 10 houses and one is destroyed.
Hamas has “naval forces”? Wut?
Wait but I thought Israel controlled the waters???!
The IDF killed a few militants on fishing boats. Whatever.
There is impressive footage from October 7.
Yes lots of friendly fire. The IDF is suppressing that story.
Anonymous wrote:Ceasefire sounds well and good, but will not help get rid of Hamas because they don’t negotiate.
Hostage negotiatons were ongoing
This stopped when Israel started the bombing and ground operations
The hostage situation is terrible, which is what Hamas wants. "human leverage" right?
Nobody on this thread is pro Hamas. Some may be pro Palestinian. Nobody thinks the atrocities of Hamas are ok. The question is how do you deal with the reality of Hamas having de facto control over Gaza.
Some think Israel has to respond by treating Gaza as an independent nation that they are at war with. And that casualties are just something that happens in war. But this is not the situation. You are not dealing with a nation state with resources and responsibilities to its countrymen. You are dealing with a terrorist organization that has gone to ground in a part of your territory that houses an oppressed minority. In the end, you have a larger responsibility to the civilians you are killing.
Very nice. But ultimately says nothing about what Israel should do.
Answer me this. What is the Israeli government’s responsibility to the Palestinian people of Gaza as they try to root out terrorists? Is it the same as their responsibility to Jewish hostages taken captive by these terrorists?
dp. evacuation notices and acting within laws of war.
But we just established it’s not war. It’s a police action within its own borders.
Anonymous wrote:Cease fire is all hostages released, Hamas surrenders, and remnants of Hamas leadership get safe passage to Libya or somewhere. Russia? Richmond, CA?
Anonymous wrote:Ceasefire sounds well and good, but will not help get rid of Hamas because they don’t negotiate.
Hostage negotiatons were ongoing
This stopped when Israel started the bombing and ground operations
The hostage situation is terrible, which is what Hamas wants. "human leverage" right?
Nobody on this thread is pro Hamas. Some may be pro Palestinian. Nobody thinks the atrocities of Hamas are ok. The question is how do you deal with the reality of Hamas having de facto control over Gaza.
Some think Israel has to respond by treating Gaza as an independent nation that they are at war with. And that casualties are just something that happens in war. But this is not the situation. You are not dealing with a nation state with resources and responsibilities to its countrymen. You are dealing with a terrorist organization that has gone to ground in a part of your territory that houses an oppressed minority. In the end, you have a larger responsibility to the civilians you are killing.
Very nice. But ultimately says nothing about what Israel should do.
Answer me this. What is the Israeli government’s responsibility to the Palestinian people of Gaza as they try to root out terrorists? Is it the same as their responsibility to Jewish hostages taken captive by these terrorists?
dp. evacuation notices and acting within laws of war.
But we just established it’s not war. It’s a police action within its own borders.
Anonymous wrote:Cease fire is all hostages released, Hamas surrenders, and remnants of Hamas leadership get safe passage to Libya or somewhere. Russia? Richmond, CA?
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.
I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.
I have said that many times.
I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.
I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.
People have said “I don’t care.”
So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.
You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either
And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.
I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.
And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
Oh god. Here you pro-apartheid folks go again. We must have a mandatory preamble to everything. How about all you pro-apartheid era start with whether you believe ethnic cleansing is justified by Israel and whether “never again “ only applies to European Jews, huh?
Answer that and lead with it every time
I asked you a question first. Stop deflecting.
Your question is BS pro apartheid censorship. When you don’t have a point, you pivot and demand that everyone swear allegiance to Israel. It’s fascist tactics and I’m over it. You guys have been exposed
Do you support genocide as long as the dead are brown?
Arabs aren’t brown, dumbass.
You clearly don’t know any Arabs from your home in Maryland. My family all disagree with you, but rich white ladies csll the shots, right?
I’m not white, but nice try.
Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews look nearly identical.
Israel is being controlled and operated by European Jews who survived the European genocide not Sephardic Jews.
80% of all Jews are Ashkenazi. That’s what you mean with your pejorative “European.” We are half European, half Middle Eastern.
Yes. The middle eastern half is closely genetically related to Palestinians. And the European half is bc of inter-breeding with European countries. What does this mean to you? To me it means that Palestinians have ancient historical ties to the land that Israel sits on today. I’m not saying Israel shouldn’t exist. But I am saying that Palestinians have a right to exist as well. Do I know how to achieve this - no. But I do know that co tinier bombing and killing people with a right to live where they are living is not the answer.
And Jews don’t have historical ties to the land? What BS that you acknowledge one but not the other.
Please read my post again. That is not what o wrote. I said “I’m not saying Israel shouldn’t exist. But I am saying that Palestinians have a right to exist also.” In other words. I’m acknowledging both have rights and both populations are closely genetically related (except the Jewish half that left and interbred). It seems you are the one acknowledging one and not the other of you mean that Palestinians don’t have a right to the land but Jews do?
Your post only mentioned a Palestinian claim to the land.
Thinking Israel should exist is different than acknowledging Jews have also been there for thousands of years.
Anonymous wrote:IDF has eliminated Hamas’ commander of naval forces (Gaza Brigade). Not totally clear, but the strike looks like it was on a structure that sat among a row of other structure: That’s a precision strike, but of course, there could be damage to an adjacent structure— like a block of, say, 10 houses and one is destroyed.
Hamas has “naval forces”? Wut?
Wait but I thought Israel controlled the waters???!
The IDF killed a few militants on fishing boats. Whatever.
There is impressive footage from October 7.
Yes lots of friendly fire. The IDF is suppressing that story.
No—this was direct fire on Hamas terrorists in speedboats. Very clear.
Anonymous wrote:Ceasefire sounds well and good, but will not help get rid of Hamas because they don’t negotiate.
Hostage negotiatons were ongoing
This stopped when Israel started the bombing and ground operations
The hostage situation is terrible, which is what Hamas wants. "human leverage" right?
Nobody on this thread is pro Hamas. Some may be pro Palestinian. Nobody thinks the atrocities of Hamas are ok. The question is how do you deal with the reality of Hamas having de facto control over Gaza.
Some think Israel has to respond by treating Gaza as an independent nation that they are at war with. And that casualties are just something that happens in war. But this is not the situation. You are not dealing with a nation state with resources and responsibilities to its countrymen. You are dealing with a terrorist organization that has gone to ground in a part of your territory that houses an oppressed minority. In the end, you have a larger responsibility to the civilians you are killing.
Very nice. But ultimately says nothing about what Israel should do.
Answer me this. What is the Israeli government’s responsibility to the Palestinian people of Gaza as they try to root out terrorists? Is it the same as their responsibility to Jewish hostages taken captive by these terrorists?
dp. evacuation notices and acting within laws of war.
But we just established it’s not war. It’s a police action within its own borders.
It is a declared war.
And after 9/11, the international law community was clear that terrorist groups are considered combatants that must adhere to international law.
Doubly so with Hamas because they are the elected government in Gaza.
Can we stop this Jews-helped-MLK thing as if it sheds any light on the morality of what Israel is doing now? And let’s be clear, SOME Jews helped the civil rights movement. Other Jews were just as anti-black racist as non-Jewish white people. Read, for example, the wonderful memoir “The Color of Water,” written by a biracial man whose white Jewish mother was disowned by her Jewish family for marrying a black man.
Anonymous wrote:I think that the International Community should be urging Hamas to remove its command and control infrastructure from below and within hospitals.
Well if the international community tells them to do it, I’m sure they’ll listen.
Forum Index
»
Political Discussion
![[Post New]](/jforum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif){kind=icon}