Anonymous wrote:So what will be the political fallout?
Israel cannot live in peace with Palestinians, that we can agree on.
How are any long term plans being accomplished?
American politics are due to change with each and every president, but Israel will still be surrounded by their neighbors
I don’t agree on that first point. Hamas and Israel cannot coexist. Palestine and Israel can. Two states.
I don’t agree. Look at the West Bank. No Hamas and Israelis keep killing them over there too and stealing their land.
You’re naive if you think Hamas isn’t in the West Bank.
Anonymous wrote:I see Israel as the underdog—surrounded by enemies, hated by the UN, the list goes on. It really is fighting a multi-front war.
That’s quite the definition of underdog.
The country with the most sophisticated military in the region that also happens to be closely allied with the country boasting the most powerful military in the world. And they’re fighting an impoverished population that doesn’t even control their own water.
I don’t think underdog means what you think it means.
+1
Exactly.
Don't start a war if you don't want to fight one particularly if you are impoverished.
I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...
Wait what? What are you talking about? I am confused. This isn't the American South where African Americans (my people) at times were called uppity if they were successful, your comparison doesn't make any sense. You are so used to use our struggle to try to justify whatever it is you think you are going through that you are now getting sloppy.
Restatement: I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...
The fact that one diverse group was subjected to inhumanity across hundreds of years of slavery, having been shoved into the ground using this same phrase doesn't mean that another group cannot also suffer a grotesque fate (specifically, the sustained, humiliating, intentionally provocative order by "their betters" to accept their station in society and STFU about it, lest they get a good and thorough beating). You don't have exclusive rights to being marginalized by bad people. Today, the lynching is delivered at arms length via gleaming F-22 fighter jets that one side is gifted by guess who?
Uncle Sam, back at it again!
Again, you missed the whole point of "don't start a war you don't want to fight"--the point is go fight the war but don't complain when who you fight, fights back. Again, to cheaply gain sympathy from African Americans, you are making a comparison that literally makes no sense in the context of the conversation. No one is talking about no keep yourself in your place (yes I am using a double negative like a good black person when we are really trying to emphasize something by using AAVE intentionally)
Those "complaining" are not the actors in the drama. The complainers are the rest of the civilized world. Who do you imagine ISN'T howling at what's been occurring for the past three weeks?
The complainers didn't start the war. They're also not fighting the war. But they are well within the bounds of society to seek and end to the atrocities that have taken place on both side in the past three weeks. They don't need your approval, nor anyone's.
Look, if you like to see or hear that humans are being blown apart every day for three weeks, I guess you have to look within and find what makes you actually tick because it sure as hell isn't compassion.
This is not true, you act as if the Palestinians have had this immense power to galvanize the world to share their opinion and that is not true. Despite what you think this issue is not at the forefront of people's minds. In other words, the world population doesn't hate Jews as much as you do, you might think people are sitting around so irritated by Jews as much as you are but that is not true. I am learning that anti semetics use this language a lot, that the whole world know this or that about jews. Their hate is so insidious they think it is natural and that everyone feels it. In any event, even if the whole world hated Isreal, that doesn't mean that feeling is right (but again I don't think this is true anyway)
Seriously, what is wrong with you? Why does everything distill into "You hate the Jews"? This pathological need to label others as anti-semitic, without even knowing who they are, what they believe, or anything else is staggering to me. Nothing in anything I've written here or elsewhere in my lifetime expressed hatred for Jewish people. Do you just assign hatred whenever someone doesn't fold in the echo chamber and calls BS?
I’ve read much of the original thread and the arguments for Israel boil down to:
Well what do YOU think Israel should do? (Respect the Palestinians in the first place and not empower Hamas)
And
Objecting to Israel is antisemitism.
Everything in the 1000+ page thread boils down to these two sentiments. It’s very hard work to justify the collective punishment and annihilation of 2 million people, and posters here are lazy.
Respect them in the first place or you would have not been terrorized--sounding like street thugs who are always talking about pride and honor if you disrespect me I will cap you! Life isn't a 90s rap video Palestine supporters. Yeah so pin the post above so we can all see that yes, they see the Hamas attack as justified, because they were disrespected.
Would someone please translate the above.
Israel can do no wrong. If Israel kills a child it is justified. If Israel kills thousands of children it is justified. Only antisemites question Israel’s actions. You don’t want to be an antisemite do you?
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.
I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.
I have said that many times.
I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.
I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.
People have said “I don’t care.”
So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.
You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either
And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.
I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.
And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
Oh god. Here you pro-apartheid folks go again. We must have a mandatory preamble to everything. How about all you pro-apartheid era start with whether you believe ethnic cleansing is justified by Israel and whether “never again “ only applies to European Jews, huh?
Answer that and lead with it every time
I asked you a question first. Stop deflecting.
Your question is BS pro apartheid censorship. When you don’t have a point, you pivot and demand that everyone swear allegiance to Israel. It’s fascist tactics and I’m over it. You guys have been exposed
Do you support genocide as long as the dead are brown?
Arabs aren’t brown, dumbass.
You clearly don’t know any Arabs from your home in Maryland. My family all disagree with you, but rich white ladies csll the shots, right?
I’m not white, but nice try.
Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews look nearly identical.
Israel is being controlled and operated by European Jews who survived the European genocide not Sephardic Jews.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.
I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.
I have said that many times.
I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.
I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.
People have said “I don’t care.”
So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.
You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either
And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.
I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.
And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
Oh god. Here you pro-apartheid folks go again. We must have a mandatory preamble to everything. How about all you pro-apartheid era start with whether you believe ethnic cleansing is justified by Israel and whether “never again “ only applies to European Jews, huh?
Answer that and lead with it every time
I asked you a question first. Stop deflecting.
Your question is BS pro apartheid censorship. When you don’t have a point, you pivot and demand that everyone swear allegiance to Israel. It’s fascist tactics and I’m over it. You guys have been exposed
Do you support genocide as long as the dead are brown?
Arabs aren’t brown, dumbass.
You clearly don’t know any Arabs from your home in Maryland. My family all disagree with you, but rich white ladies csll the shots, right?
I’m not white, but nice try.
Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews look nearly identical.
Israel is being controlled and operated by European Jews who survived the European genocide not Sephardic Jews.
80% of all Jews are Ashkenazi. That’s what you mean with your pejorative “European.” We are half European, half Middle Eastern.
Anonymous wrote:Ceasefire sounds well and good, but will not help get rid of Hamas because they don’t negotiate.
Hostage negotiatons were ongoing
This stopped when Israel started the bombing and ground operations
The hostage situation is terrible, which is what Hamas wants. "human leverage" right?
Nobody on this thread is pro Hamas. Some may be pro Palestinian. Nobody thinks the atrocities of Hamas are ok. The question is how do you deal with the reality of Hamas having de facto control over Gaza.
Some think Israel has to respond by treating Gaza as an independent nation that they are at war with. And that casualties are just something that happens in war. But this is not the situation. You are not dealing with a nation state with resources and responsibilities to its countrymen. You are dealing with a terrorist organization that has gone to ground in a part of your territory that houses an oppressed minority. In the end, you have a larger responsibility to the civilians you are killing.
Anonymous wrote:Ceasefire sounds well and good, but will not help get rid of Hamas because they don’t negotiate.
Hostage negotiatons were ongoing
This stopped when Israel started the bombing and ground operations
The hostage situation is terrible, which is what Hamas wants. "human leverage" right?
Nobody on this thread is pro Hamas. Some may be pro Palestinian. Nobody thinks the atrocities of Hamas are ok. The question is how do you deal with the reality of Hamas having de facto control over Gaza.
Some think Israel has to respond by treating Gaza as an independent nation that they are at war with. And that casualties are just something that happens in war. But this is not the situation. You are not dealing with a nation state with resources and responsibilities to its countrymen. You are dealing with a terrorist organization that has gone to ground in a part of your territory that houses an oppressed minority. In the end, you have a larger responsibility to the civilians you are killing.
Very nice. But ultimately says nothing about what Israel should do.
Anonymous wrote:Ceasefire sounds well and good, but will not help get rid of Hamas because they don’t negotiate.
Hostage negotiatons were ongoing
This stopped when Israel started the bombing and ground operations
The hostage situation is terrible, which is what Hamas wants. "human leverage" right?
Nobody on this thread is pro Hamas. Some may be pro Palestinian. Nobody thinks the atrocities of Hamas are ok. The question is how do you deal with the reality of Hamas having de facto control over Gaza.
Some think Israel has to respond by treating Gaza as an independent nation that they are at war with. And that casualties are just something that happens in war. But this is not the situation. You are not dealing with a nation state with resources and responsibilities to its countrymen. You are dealing with a terrorist organization that has gone to ground in a part of your territory that houses an oppressed minority. In the end, you have a larger responsibility to the civilians you are killing.
Very nice. But ultimately says nothing about what Israel should do.
You have asked this question and haven’t like the answer. Ceasefire.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.
I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.
I have said that many times.
I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.
I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.
People have said “I don’t care.”
So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.
You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either
And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.
I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.
And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
Oh god. Here you pro-apartheid folks go again. We must have a mandatory preamble to everything. How about all you pro-apartheid era start with whether you believe ethnic cleansing is justified by Israel and whether “never again “ only applies to European Jews, huh?
Answer that and lead with it every time
I asked you a question first. Stop deflecting.
Your question is BS pro apartheid censorship. When you don’t have a point, you pivot and demand that everyone swear allegiance to Israel. It’s fascist tactics and I’m over it. You guys have been exposed
Do you support genocide as long as the dead are brown?
Arabs aren’t brown, dumbass.
You clearly don’t know any Arabs from your home in Maryland. My family all disagree with you, but rich white ladies csll the shots, right?
I’m not white, but nice try.
Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews look nearly identical.
Sure, Jan. I’ve been hearing all week how Amy Schumer is an oppressed POC. Must’ve been hard for her. Plenty of police profiling. And with only a Senate Majority Leader cousin to help her out? So hard
Your complete lack of willingness to acknowledge that Jews are anything but privileged is disgusting.
You do realize people can care about Jews and Palestinians, right?
You have evidenced a lack of ability to do just that.
Jews in this country benefit from whiteness. I’ve been told repeatedly on this thread that they are oppressed POC. It’s a clear misrepresentation— particularly by people like Amy Schumer
Your inability to see beyond skin tone is gross.
Also, you know full well that plenty of Jews are indistinguishable from plenty of Arabs.
You’re deflecting. The statement is correct no matter how much you want to pretend that society, police, employers , etc are colorblind. Does racism not exist in your world? That’s nice
DP. For me it has nothing to do with skin color. The Polish, German, French, Russian, basic European Jew were white and indistinguishable from their German , Austrian, Polish, etc murderers. It’s not about race it’s about right and wrong. Israel has become the murderer seventy years later.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.
I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.
I have said that many times.
I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.
I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.
People have said “I don’t care.”
So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.
You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either
And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.
I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.
And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
Oh god. Here you pro-apartheid folks go again. We must have a mandatory preamble to everything. How about all you pro-apartheid era start with whether you believe ethnic cleansing is justified by Israel and whether “never again “ only applies to European Jews, huh?
Answer that and lead with it every time
I asked you a question first. Stop deflecting.
Your question is BS pro apartheid censorship. When you don’t have a point, you pivot and demand that everyone swear allegiance to Israel. It’s fascist tactics and I’m over it. You guys have been exposed
Do you support genocide as long as the dead are brown?
Arabs aren’t brown, dumbass.
You clearly don’t know any Arabs from your home in Maryland. My family all disagree with you, but rich white ladies csll the shots, right?
I’m not white, but nice try.
Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews look nearly identical.
Sure, Jan. I’ve been hearing all week how Amy Schumer is an oppressed POC. Must’ve been hard for her. Plenty of police profiling. And with only a Senate Majority Leader cousin to help her out? So hard
I’m half Asian half Jewish, jerkwad.
How’s that relevant?
Because ahole PP kept calling me white.
Ok so Asian? And that this makes you an expert on brown people? I don’t get it
Arabs aren’t considered any more brown than Mizrahi Jews. Sorry.
Got it. You don’t know any Arabs.
And you think all Jews are white.
In Israel, the non-white Jews are sterilized against their knowledge. Hmm.
Anonymous wrote:Ceasefire sounds well and good, but will not help get rid of Hamas because they don’t negotiate.
Hostage negotiatons were ongoing
This stopped when Israel started the bombing and ground operations
The hostage situation is terrible, which is what Hamas wants. "human leverage" right?
Nobody on this thread is pro Hamas. Some may be pro Palestinian. Nobody thinks the atrocities of Hamas are ok. The question is how do you deal with the reality of Hamas having de facto control over Gaza.
Some think Israel has to respond by treating Gaza as an independent nation that they are at war with. And that casualties are just something that happens in war. But this is not the situation. You are not dealing with a nation state with resources and responsibilities to its countrymen. You are dealing with a terrorist organization that has gone to ground in a part of your territory that houses an oppressed minority. In the end, you have a larger responsibility to the civilians you are killing.
Very nice. But ultimately says nothing about what Israel should do.
Israel should be liable for all damages cause to civilians. Also all Palestinians need to be give full citizenship in Israel. It is time to hold Israel accountable.
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