Huge changes to TJ admissions test beginning next year

[Anonymous]

I don't think that the cheating is a problem caused by the school, since most of the kids are not cheating. Sometimes kids cheat because they are young and their morals are not fully formed, sometimes, sadly, they have a family situation that is not teaching them that cheating is wrong.

If the family is falling down on the job, the school needs to step up and teach the kids and their parents that cheating is unacceptable, no excuses allowed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't think that the cheating is a problem caused by the school, since most of the kids are not cheating. Sometimes kids cheat because they are young and their morals are not fully formed, sometimes, sadly, they have a family situation that is not teaching them that cheating is wrong.

If the family is falling down on the job, the school needs to step up and teach the kids and their parents that cheating is unacceptable, no excuses allowed.

You're kidding, right? My ES kid gets really upset if someone breaks the established rules to the point of following teachers' instructions on homework. This is from 2nd grade on. Everyone - teachers, parents, counselors, etc) has a role in developing ethical children.

However, I've also heard that TJ teachers don't teach and they give out tests that are way out of High school league without having taught the subject in depth. This might prompt the kids to cheat, especially if there are no consequences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think that the cheating is a problem caused by the school, since most of the kids are not cheating. Sometimes kids cheat because they are young and their morals are not fully formed, sometimes, sadly, they have a family situation that is not teaching them that cheating is wrong.

If the family is falling down on the job, the school needs to step up and teach the kids and their parents that cheating is unacceptable, no excuses allowed.

You're kidding, right? My ES kid gets really upset if someone breaks the established rules to the point of following teachers' instructions on homework. This is from 2nd grade on. Everyone - teachers, parents, counselors, etc) has a role in developing ethical children.

However, I've also heard that TJ teachers don't teach and they give out tests that are way out of High school league without having taught the subject in depth. This might prompt the kids to cheat, especially if there are no consequences.

Kids at TJ should not need to be spoon fed material. Many times they are doing college level work: they need to be able to handle college level work and college level teaching methods. If they can't handle the level of work at TJ, they would probably have a better experience that is more suited to their needs at the regular high school.

And not understanding material is not an excuse to cheat, it means the child should be asking for help. And yes, at some point if a child constantly needs extra help at TJ, then TJ is probably not the right place for that young person.

Parents can't pass the blame to the teachers when their kids cheat. Kids need to be taught right from wrong at home and parents need to hold their kids responsible for their actions.

[Anonymous]

Back to the original topic, the format of the new test isn't likely to make it any harder or easier, just different. Also, this is only the 1st cut and that is not where the pruning happens, but at the 2nd cut. The entry criteria for semifinalist pool in previous years were set at a low bar so that enough candidates could get through. In fact, a kid who did not prepping but maintained a straight A with a 4.0 GPA or close to it required only 60 total and 30 in math to get to semifinalist pool. After that everything depended on how well they wrote their SIS and Essay. This isn't too hard to accomplish, and a kid who gets straight A in MS will easily get through that lower benchmark required for getting into the semi-pool without any prep. It is still at the SIS / Essay part where they weed out true TJ material candidates. The math part of new test isn't likely to be any harder than grade level, in fact it is designed to be no more harder than Algebra I, but mostly it is arithmetic, and most 7th & 8th graders in FCPS AAP should score above 80 comfortably. The science component is also unlikely to be anything above MS AAP level. This isn't going to change anything. Kids who know their math and engligh at MS AAP level with straight A grades will make the cut, and from there they will be weeded out through SIS / Essay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Back to the original topic, the format of the new test isn't likely to make it any harder or easier, just different. Also, this is only the 1st cut and that is not where the pruning happens, but at the 2nd cut. The entry criteria for semifinalist pool in previous years were set at a low bar so that enough candidates could get through. In fact, a kid who did not prepping but maintained a straight A with a 4.0 GPA or close to it required only 60 total and 30 in math to get to semifinalist pool. After that everything depended on how well they wrote their SIS and Essay. This isn't too hard to accomplish, and a kid who gets straight A in MS will easily get through that lower benchmark required for getting into the semi-pool without any prep. It is still at the SIS / Essay part where they weed out true TJ material candidates. The math part of new test isn't likely to be any harder than grade level, in fact it is designed to be no more harder than Algebra I, but mostly it is arithmetic, and most 7th & 8th graders in FCPS AAP should score above 80 comfortably. The science component is also unlikely to be anything above MS AAP level. This isn't going to change anything. Kids who know their math and engligh at MS AAP level with straight A grades will make the cut, and from there they will be weeded out through SIS / Essay.

This!

What people seem to think is that kids go to test prep schools and do sample tests all day long.. WRONG. Most of the prep falls in the category of supplementation - Khan Academy, AoPS, etc. They have teachers who teach advanced concepts. Go to any public library on a Sunday afternoon or in the evening and you will see at least one Asian kid being tutored by an English teacher (typically white). This will help those kids address any format of test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back to the original topic, the format of the new test isn't likely to make it any harder or easier, just different. Also, this is only the 1st cut and that is not where the pruning happens, but at the 2nd cut. The entry criteria for semifinalist pool in previous years were set at a low bar so that enough candidates could get through. In fact, a kid who did not prepping but maintained a straight A with a 4.0 GPA or close to it required only 60 total and 30 in math to get to semifinalist pool. After that everything depended on how well they wrote their SIS and Essay. This isn't too hard to accomplish, and a kid who gets straight A in MS will easily get through that lower benchmark required for getting into the semi-pool without any prep. It is still at the SIS / Essay part where they weed out true TJ material candidates. The math part of new test isn't likely to be any harder than grade level, in fact it is designed to be no more harder than Algebra I, but mostly it is arithmetic, and most 7th & 8th graders in FCPS AAP should score above 80 comfortably. The science component is also unlikely to be anything above MS AAP level. This isn't going to change anything. Kids who know their math and engligh at MS AAP level with straight A grades will make the cut, and from there they will be weeded out through SIS / Essay.

This!

What people seem to think is that kids go to test prep schools and do sample tests all day long.. WRONG. Most of the prep falls in the category of supplementation - Khan Academy, AoPS, etc. They have teachers who teach advanced concepts. Go to any public library on a Sunday afternoon or in the evening and you will see at least one Asian kid being tutored by an English teacher (typically white). This will help those kids address any format of test.

Correct. I only know one prep center where my DC attended, and the main teacher there (a college prof) gives out hard math problems to solve, not TJ test sample tests, and most of the tests are not multiple choice but they have to solve on paper the correcct answer. Most of his tests were way harder than TJ sample test and less than 20 kids out of 100 could score above 80 and less than 10 kids could make above 90 in those tests. If anyone who went there took those test scores as an indicator then they would have given up on TJ, because most were flunking (less than 80). Give these kids any new math test, they will figure it out.

To say that kid who practice solving hard math problems are cheating is equal to saying practicing hard drills before a football game is cheating, instead they should just get up from bed and go directly to play an important game.

[Anonymous]

There are probably different kinds if TJ prep centers. My child's friend went to one where they did spend a lot of time doing practice tests and writing essays using previous questions. After semifinalist notifications came out, they concentrated on writing answers to the SIS questions, writing them again and again with the goal of memorizing their answers.

I know this because the child's mom told me all about it and directed me to the website so I could see what a great idea it was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are probably different kinds if TJ prep centers. My child's friend went to one where they did spend a lot of time doing practice tests and writing essays using previous questions. After semifinalist notifications came out, they concentrated on writing answers to the SIS questions, writing them again and again with the goal of memorizing their answers.

I know this because the child's mom told me all about it and directed me to the website so I could see what a great idea it was.

And this child started doing this in the spring of sixth grade, so for a total of about two years. Other kids we knew went to the same or similar businesses for this training. It was very expensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are probably different kinds if TJ prep centers. My child's friend went to one where they did spend a lot of time doing practice tests and writing essays using previous questions. After semifinalist notifications came out, they concentrated on writing answers to the SIS questions, writing them again and again with the goal of memorizing their answers.

I know this because the child's mom told me all about it and directed me to the website so I could see what a great idea it was.

And this child started doing this in the spring of sixth grade, so for a total of about two years. Other kids we knew went to the same or similar businesses for this training. It was very expensive.

So what? it is their money and time. Many parents spend a lot of money on kids activities, such as expensive baseball camps and tournaments. All I hear on these thread is a lot of sour grapes about coaching this, prepping that, blady blah blah .. get a grip, ask your kids to get off their video games, instagram / snapchat, fb, and do more math, reading, and writing. Then may be then can become competitive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:cheating seems an Indian culture. They submit fake transcript when applying for graduate school and fake resume with falsified experiences when apply for jobs. They cheat all the way to top.

I'm in a good mood this morning so I won't bi**h slap you for this.. However, these are the kind of comments that derail an otherwise meaningful conversation. Let's try to stick to the main topic which is "cheating at TJ and how to prevent it" and move on. If you want to keep going down this "pointy-finger" road, bring it on..

So are you denying or admitting these?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are probably different kinds if TJ prep centers. My child's friend went to one where they did spend a lot of time doing practice tests and writing essays using previous questions. After semifinalist notifications came out, they concentrated on writing answers to the SIS questions, writing them again and again with the goal of memorizing their answers.

I know this because the child's mom told me all about it and directed me to the website so I could see what a great idea it was.

And this child started doing this in the spring of sixth grade, so for a total of about two years. Other kids we knew went to the same or similar businesses for this training. It was very expensive.

So what? it is their money and time. Many parents spend a lot of money on kids activities, such as expensive baseball camps and tournaments. All I hear on these thread is a lot of sour grapes about coaching this, prepping that, blady blah blah .. get a grip, ask your kids to get off their video games, instagram / snapchat, fb, and do more math, reading, and writing. Then may be then can become competitive.

Oh, I don't really care. A previous poster said that many prep places don't just practice questions over and over, so I was just relaying what I was told by a parent and read on the website about a place that does concentrate on that kind of prep.

Certainly no sour grapes here. My child got in without prep and had a great experience at TJ. He was fully qualified and did well by his own hard work without needing tutoring after school, and had time for sports all three seasons and work as a lifeguard during the summers. We saw the stressed kids and we saw the kids that had to go back to their regular school, which was a difficult situation for the kids and their parents.

For some kids, it would be far better to have a good and challenging experience at their regular high school by taking a lot of APs or IB classes then to go to TJ, be overwhelmed, and end up having to leave. It would be good to have an admissions process who could sort out kids who appear to be ready for TJ, but really aren't. It would save them and their families a lot of heartache.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thumbs up.

Hope they change the testing process/procedures every four years or so, too.

+1

Totally agree. Th test prep is not letting the best and brightest in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't teach math at TJ, but in another FCPS high school. Cheating is rampant everywhere. I space the kids out, put up dividers, give out multiple versions of tests, and watch them like hawks. Phones are not allowed on test days. I've still caught over a dozen cheaters this year (and I have to believe I missed twice as many).

The problem, IMO, is that there is no standardized policy for cheaters,by county or by school. It is up to each department or team at my school to create a policy, and even then if parents push, admin has made me go around and offer retakes for full credit (I.e. No punishment)

When I was in college, they made it very clear to us, from orientation on, that cheating would be punished, with an F for the test or course or possibly expulsion, depending on the severity of the cheating and any prior record. High schools should teaching kids not to cheat.

TJ, though, does have a possible punishment in its back pocket that I believe would cause students to think twice before cheating. That would be to send the kids back to their regular schools. I'm not sure why they're not telling kids that cheating is unacceptable and will be punished every time.

+1. They should. It would stop the cheating epidemic. Quickly. But, they are fighting the parents on this, who seem to think that cheating is okay. See the people on this thread deflecting, saying sour grapes, and attacking. School can't solve a parents with poor values.

But, I think everyone in FCPS should be pissed. A lot of smart qualified kids are turned down each year. If kids are kicked out, there are plenty of qualified kids to take their place. People should be putting pressure on the school board to get serious and give TJ the ability to kick kids out, just like they can for less than a 3.0.

Why can't the school just give the cheating student an "F" grade? That would automatically take the overall grade down to a 3.0 or below and the student will get expelled. As to the "cheaters are mostly Asian" comment, of course they will be since the TJ population "skews 70% Asian".

There is no excuse for unethical behavior. Parents notwithstanding, the school should have policies that should discourage cheating. IF there aren't any such policies, then there is no incentive for someone to stop. Period. You can holler all day long about ethics, unethical parents, Indians, Chinese, blah, blah, blah.. but what's the point?

Yep. This is how it got this far. And what a lot of pissed off parents are saying. And yet, there is also a group of TJ parents against cracking down in cheating. (I wonder why that would be...). And the admin is just not taking it seriously. I hope the new principal does. Until my kid went to TJ, as thought the TJ cheaters thing was sour grapes, etc. And I started getting the emails with the numbers and hearing from my DC how out of control the cheating is. So I guess I was naive. In my mind, going to TJ is a privilege. You cheat, you forfeit the right to attend.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are probably different kinds if TJ prep centers. My child's friend went to one where they did spend a lot of time doing practice tests and writing essays using previous questions. After semifinalist notifications came out, they concentrated on writing answers to the SIS questions, writing them again and again with the goal of memorizing their answers.

I know this because the child's mom told me all about it and directed me to the website so I could see what a great idea it was.

And this child started doing this in the spring of sixth grade, so for a total of about two years. Other kids we knew went to the same or similar businesses for this training. It was very expensive.

So what? it is their money and time. Many parents spend a lot of money on kids activities, such as expensive baseball camps and tournaments. All I hear on these thread is a lot of sour grapes about coaching this, prepping that, blady blah blah .. get a grip, ask your kids to get off their video games, instagram / snapchat, fb, and do more math, reading, and writing. Then may be then can become competitive.

Oh, I don't really care. A previous poster said that many prep places don't just practice questions over and over, so I was just relaying what I was told by a parent and read on the website about a place that does concentrate on that kind of prep.

Certainly no sour grapes here. My child got in without prep and had a great experience at TJ. He was fully qualified and did well by his own hard work without needing tutoring after school, and had time for sports all three seasons and work as a lifeguard during the summers. We saw the stressed kids and we saw the kids that had to go back to their regular school, which was a difficult situation for the kids and their parents.

For some kids, it would be far better to have a good and challenging experience at their regular high school by taking a lot of APs or IB classes then to go to TJ, be overwhelmed, and end up having to leave. It would be good to have an admissions process who could sort out kids who appear to be ready for TJ, but really aren't. It would save them and their families a lot of heartache.

That simply isn't realistic. Just like in other schools, in TJ too there will be kids who struggle. Are you wishing for Lake Wobegone where all the children are above average? Let there be those who take tutoring and struggle, isn't life like that, some thrive some struggle and some who struggle eventually come out of it and thrive, and some who did great in HS will do poorly later in life. We are not living in Garrison Heller's fantasy world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thumbs up.

Hope they change the testing process/procedures every four years or so, too.

+1

Totally agree. Th test prep is not letting the best and brightest in.

Totally sad situation when your genius is pushed out by a bunch of mere prepping robots, and their natural brilliance isn't enough to overcome life's simple challenges.