Honest question for liberals about diversity/multiculturalism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Y'all are barking up the wrong tree. The reason people wanted to (and still want to) immigrate here is because of our Constitutions and our individual freedoms, that allow people to make something of themselves. Progressives are in the process of dismantling those freedoms and our Constitution, and think that immigration will have the same effect. It won't. There will be more takers than givers due to the vast welfare state that exists today, and you will see our country deteriorate, as all other countries deteriorated with the same policies.

Woah, you have that totally wrong. For one thing, progressives aren't dismantling any freedoms - they are making sure that others have the same shot at the same freedoms as you. Secondly, it's not the immigrants who are the takers - it's the multigenerational Americans who feel entitled. Far more white people are on food stamps and other benefits than there are immigrants - or blacks for that matter.

[Anonymous]

Y'all are barking up the wrong tree. The reason people wanted to (and still want to) immigrate here is because of our Constitutions and our individual freedoms, that allow people to make something of themselves. Progressives are in the process of dismantling those freedoms and our Constitution, and think that immigration will have the same effect. It won't. There will be more takers than givers due to the vast welfare state that exists today, and you will see our country deteriorate, as all other countries deteriorated with the same policies.


Woah, you have that totally wrong. For one thing, progressives aren't dismantling any freedoms - they are making sure that others have the same shot at the same freedoms as you. Secondly, it's not the immigrants who are the takers - it's the multigenerational Americans who feel entitled. Far more white people are on food stamps and other benefits than there are immigrants - or blacks for that matter.

Both PPs above are generalizing and stereotyping. So, who is the bigot here? The conservative or the progressive?


Answer: Both

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Y'all are barking up the wrong tree. The reason people wanted to (and still want to) immigrate here is because of our Constitutions and our individual freedoms, that allow people to make something of themselves. Progressives are in the process of dismantling those freedoms and our Constitution, and think that immigration will have the same effect. It won't. There will be more takers than givers due to the vast welfare state that exists today, and you will see our country deteriorate, as all other countries deteriorated with the same policies.

This is not about politics. The topic was about why diversity and multiculturalism is good for America. What has politics got to do with it. Don't make it about politics. Now that you did, let me respond in a civil and respectful manner without blaming any group.

When you make a case, back it up with facts and logical reasoning alone, not emotions and biases. What constitutional rights and freedoms have been dismantled? So what happens when constitution has become outdated and majority want changes to it? That's why there is an amendment process that abolished slavery, gave civil rights to oppressed people and minorities. Constitution is not set in stone and a final document for eternity. It has to adapt as times change and values change. The constitution is there to serve the people, all people not just some, and give all people the same equal rights and the same equal shot to get better. If it stops doing that then it's time for a change, an amendment. So now tell me what constitution and freedoms have been trampled? Let me just give one example, if the majority of Americans support LGBTQ rights and freedoms, how can one small segment oppose that in the name of constitution? They can't after sometime and that's a lost cause. So constitutionalists adapt and interpret the constitution to changed values. That's how and why western institutions remain strong. Same goes for any number of issues.

As for the takers and makers point, do you suppose the so called makers don't get any tax benefits or deductions or tax breaks or subsidies at all, ever? Obviously that's not the case. So are the makers not takers? Entire industries have been created and supported by government incentives. Is that bad? If it is totally free market, theoretically, then that should never happen. But there is no such market. So what happens when the private market and industries get into trouble when they make a bad bet or get too greedy and are in the verge of collapse? Do you let them collapse coz that's what free market should do? At what point does the connection between market and mass visible? When you let them collapse it affects the entire global population. So market and mass are not separate. They are intertwined. So is it good if the 1% makers get 99% of all benefits? What is the right distribution? Besides, makers don't operate in an exclusive zone. They use public facilities like road, schools, universities, health care, social stability etc? How do the makers pay for all this in a fair way? Or they get to enjoy all the benefits and not spy at all?

The big point here is these are all not black or white issue, it's just varying shades of grey. So they require complex solutions and that's why they are tough. simplistic solution tells so much about the proponents. Think and come back with constructive message. The world is complex and solutions can't be simplistic and work for one group only anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a followup to my previous post, those who attribute diversity to America's failings are barking up the wrong tree. The ECONOMIC INEQUITY is what is causing UNHAPPINESS among certain segment of the society that has been left out by globalization or are just plain lazy and entitled. This situation has to be corrected by better economic/fiscal policies that helps the ones left out by various retraining or better education models and other innovative ways. Tax policy and better income allocation can be one of the factors in addressing this situation.

Blaming NON WHITE or ANY one group for economic situation is not a solution. Thats what demagogues do, attribute blame as a solution to a problem.

I liked your first post but today there are educational opportunities beginning with pre K in public schools but still great disparities in achievement. One fellow [central american] told me when in K-12 he did not take advantage of his opportunities [HS in eastern FX county] and many friends ruined their lives with gang affiliation etc. stated should have applied himself and could have been engineer-felt somewhat caught up since was licensed master tradesman.

So absurd that many get to check Hispanic box when are from highly educated families etc. There were no Polish check boxes in 1915. Virtually no ESL-my dad and family really mastered English immersion style. What we do need to do is bring back manufacturing and tech related stuff. Get the call centers out of ie India and in places like DC and Philly and Baltimore.

What is happening in manufacturing is due to mechanization more than globalization. Everyone wants to blame China or India or Asia or whatever as the reason for American loss of industry. But nobody talks about the billions of dollars that are benefited by American corporations selling their products(Apple, Google, FB, Microsoft, GE, Insurance companies, Auto Companies, Consumer product companies, Engineering companies) in a 2.5 billion population market. Do you know how many millions of jobs are created due to these 2.5 billion people in the USA? Of course it is inconvenient to talk about facts that doesn't work with our confirmation bias . It is much easier to reconfirm what we believe or told to believe by demagogues than to understand facts.

Having said that, yes there is a segment that is getting affected by mechanization/globalization. But the way to address that is not to blame BUT to find solutions to train them and change the economic policies that will benefit the poor rather than the rich who benefits disproportionately due to mechanization/globalization.

You should know " how much easier to reconfirm what we believe" since you are doing it yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My question would be not why is diversity good, but why do some people think it's bad? Do you feel threatened because people look or believe differently from you? If so, why?

I feel that by forcing me to accept other groups, they are taking away my culture. Diversity has to be good not just for small groups, but for the large group too. I'm a European. I love to travel, visit other countries, see other cultures. I like to visit different groups and regions in the US with different cultures. But I feel like, when people say "diversity/muliticulturalism" that they are using this as a dog whistle to groups that really want me to give up my culture and take theirs.

[Anonymous]

My question would be not why is diversity good, but why do some people think it's bad? Do you feel threatened because people look or believe differently from you? If so, why?

Part of the problem is that some of the groups complaining the most are the least diverse: CAIR, for example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The question is not, "Diversity, yes or no?" We already have an incredibly diverse nation and there is no going back. That's why it's so important to show and teach our children to get along with all kinds of people. This is a very practical need. Otherwise, they end up turning into adults who believe their race is superior/"normal"/right, and our national problems go on and on.

This. I think there are a group of people who are in denial about this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My question would be not why is diversity good, but why do some people think it's bad? Do you feel threatened because people look or believe differently from you? If so, why?

I feel that by forcing me to accept other groups, they are taking away my culture. Diversity has to be good not just for small groups, but for the large group too. I'm a European. I love to travel, visit other countries, see other cultures. I like to visit different groups and regions in the US with different cultures. But I feel like, when people say "diversity/muliticulturalism" that they are using this as a dog whistle to groups that really want me to give up my culture and take theirs.

So aren't you forcing other people to accept your group? What do you propose, a roll back of the civil rights laws and a return to segregation? Send all those brilliant doctors and scientists back to India and China?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My question would be not why is diversity good, but why do some people think it's bad? Do you feel threatened because people look or believe differently from you? If so, why?

I feel that by forcing me to accept other groups, they are taking away my culture. Diversity has to be good not just for small groups, but for the large group too. I'm a European. I love to travel, visit other countries, see other cultures. I like to visit different groups and regions in the US with different cultures. But I feel like, when people say "diversity/muliticulturalism" that they are using this as a dog whistle to groups that really want me to give up my culture and take theirs.

I'm unclear who is forcing you to accept other groups. And what do you mean by "accept". Be friendly? Live near them? What would that take away from your culture?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My question would be not why is diversity good, but why do some people think it's bad? Do you feel threatened because people look or believe differently from you? If so, why?

I feel that by forcing me to accept other groups, they are taking away my culture. Diversity has to be good not just for small groups, but for the large group too. I'm a European. I love to travel, visit other countries, see other cultures. I like to visit different groups and regions in the US with different cultures. But I feel like, when people say "diversity/muliticulturalism" that they are using this as a dog whistle to groups that really want me to give up my culture and take theirs.

So aren't you forcing other people to accept your group? What do you propose, a roll back of the civil rights laws and a return to segregation? Send all those brilliant doctors and scientists back to India and China?

See, it is over the top answers like that that upset me. You just accused me of wanting to roll back civil rights. It is the kind of person you are that makes me feel like I just want to stay away from diversity types. What on earth made you make such an extreme, rude, agressive response?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My question would be not why is diversity good, but why do some people think it's bad? Do you feel threatened because people look or believe differently from you? If so, why?

I feel that by forcing me to accept other groups, they are taking away my culture. Diversity has to be good not just for small groups, but for the large group too. I'm a European. I love to travel, visit other countries, see other cultures. I like to visit different groups and regions in the US with different cultures. But I feel like, when people say "diversity/muliticulturalism" that they are using this as a dog whistle to groups that really want me to give up my culture and take theirs.

So aren't you forcing other people to accept your group? What do you propose, a roll back of the civil rights laws and a return to segregation? Send all those brilliant doctors and scientists back to India and China?

See, it is over the top answers like that that upset me. You just accused me of wanting to roll back civil rights. It is the kind of person you are that makes me feel like I just want to stay away from diversity types. What on earth made you make such an extreme, rude, agressive response?

I am 9:01 and I don't think my response was over the top - yet you didn't answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Y'all are barking up the wrong tree. The reason people wanted to (and still want to) immigrate here is because of our Constitutions and our individual freedoms, that allow people to make something of themselves. Progressives are in the process of dismantling those freedoms and our Constitution, and think that immigration will have the same effect. It won't. There will be more takers than givers due to the vast welfare state that exists today, and you will see our country deteriorate, as all other countries deteriorated with the same policies.


Woah, you have that totally wrong. For one thing, progressives aren't dismantling any freedoms - they are making sure that others have the same shot at the same freedoms as you. Secondly, it's not the immigrants who are the takers - it's the multigenerational Americans who feel entitled. Far more white people are on food stamps and other benefits than there are immigrants - or blacks for that matter.

Both PPs above are generalizing and stereotyping. So, who is the bigot here? The conservative or the progressive?


Answer: Both

Nice attempt at deflection with "both" but NO. Sorry but it's an objective, documented, quantifiable fact that more white people are on food stamps than black or hispanic. Here are the numbers: 39.8% of SNAP participants are white, 25.5% are African-American, 10.9% are Hispanic, 2.4% are Asian, and 1% are Native American. So whatever opinions or perceptions you have to the contrary are irrelevant given the actual facts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My question would be not why is diversity good, but why do some people think it's bad? Do you feel threatened because people look or believe differently from you? If so, why?

I feel that by forcing me to accept other groups, they are taking away my culture. Diversity has to be good not just for small groups, but for the large group too. I'm a European. I love to travel, visit other countries, see other cultures. I like to visit different groups and regions in the US with different cultures. But I feel like, when people say "diversity/muliticulturalism" that they are using this as a dog whistle to groups that really want me to give up my culture and take theirs.

I'm unclear who is forcing you to accept other groups. And what do you mean by "accept". Be friendly? Live near them? What would that take away from your culture?

Who's taking anything away from your culture, PP? What specifically is being "taken away?"

[Anonymous]

Nice attempt at deflection with "both" but NO. Sorry but it's an objective, documented, quantifiable fact that more white people are on food stamps than black or hispanic. Here are the numbers: 39.8% of SNAP participants are white, 25.5% are African-American, 10.9% are Hispanic, 2.4% are Asian, and 1% are Native American. So whatever opinions or perceptions you have to the contrary are irrelevant given the actual facts

LOL! I was the PP who said "both" and I stand by that. I do not question your statistics--but you are skipping an important factor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States

example: whites are 63% of total population and AAs are 12%. When you compare that to the percentages of SNAP recipients, it is not the same. A far higher percentage of AAs are on SNAP.

In other words, your comparison does not hold water. And, FWIW, without the numbers on SNAP, I cannot figure out what the percentages are of the population on food stamps--just the ones who are on SNAP. I have to leave right now, but maybe I'll research it later.

And, FWIW, I have no objections to SNAP. No one should go hungry. But if you are using stats, please use them realistically. If you had ever taken a stats course, you would know that they can be manipulated to show what you want to show--depending on which stats you use.

Bottom line on your stats: the percentage of AAs on SNAP is double the percentage of AAs in the US.
the percentage of whites on SNAP is 60$ of percentage of population.

Again, these numbers do not indicate anything except to disprove your thesis.

[Anonymous]

the percentage of whites on SNAP is 60$ of percentage of population.

edit: the percentage of whites on SNAP is around 60% of the percentage on population--that means less.

Please understand: this does not mean that 60% of whites are on SNAP or 25% of AAs are on SNAP. You need the numbers of actual recipients to determine that.