Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again and again you make the crucial point of confusing Muslim practice with Islam. You are so emotional that you simply can not evaluate Islam objectively. You said many many pages back that your husband's family pressures you to convert. Its no wonder you're incapable of being objective.

You need to separate the forest from the trees. Remember, Hitlers actions does not reflect badly on all German citizens for eternity. Separate Islam the religion from the people, AND PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE PRODUCTS OF TRIBAL AREAS, TRADITIONAL CULTURAL UPBRINGING. Its absolutely unbelievable to me you judge the faith of 1.6 bil people based on actions of a handful of assholes and that you ignore the meaning and historical context of the Quran.

What's absolutely unbelievable to ME is your assumption that you're talking with the same, and only one person. Do you realize that the a) punjabi person, and b) woman whose husband's family pressured her to convert might just possibly be two separate people?

It may be or might not be. The issue is not whether Muslims have comitted atrocities. They have. Some still do. But an educated person should recognize it may not reflect poorly on the religion, particularly if the vast majority of the 1.6 billion are peaceful. An educated person does not read other people's religious scriptures literally with zero regard to historical context. An educated person who wants to completely understand a faith will not simply engage in self study, they will seek out a wide variety of scholars and imams also, particularly well educated ones. And they would not insist that an entire religion is barbaric. Thats not only ignorant but terribly irresponsible.

If she continues to babble on this way, and succeeds in her intent to foster hatred, mistrust, and rancor between Muslims and Christians and Jews, it may have the unintended consequence of inflaming some people, and then inspiring them into violent retaliation. Thus, its this biased hateful version of Islam she insists is representative of all Muslims that might actually give rise to even more hateful and violent reactions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again and again you make the crucial point of confusing Muslim practice with Islam. You are so emotional that you simply can not evaluate Islam objectively. You said many many pages back that your husband's family pressures you to convert. Its no wonder you're incapable of being objective.

You need to separate the forest from the trees. Remember, Hitlers actions does not reflect badly on all German citizens for eternity. Separate Islam the religion from the people, AND PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE PRODUCTS OF TRIBAL AREAS, TRADITIONAL CULTURAL UPBRINGING. Its absolutely unbelievable to me you judge the faith of 1.6 bil people based on actions of a handful of assholes and that you ignore the meaning and historical context of the Quran.

What's absolutely unbelievable to ME is your assumption that you're talking with the same, and only one person. Do you realize that the a) punjabi person, and b) woman whose husband's family pressured her to convert might just possibly be two separate people?

It may be or might not be. The issue is not whether Muslims have comitted atrocities. They have. Some still do. But an educated person should recognize it may not reflect poorly on the religion, particularly if the vast majority of the 1.6 billion are peaceful. An educated person does not read other people's religious scriptures literally with zero regard to historical context. An educated person who wants to completely understand a faith will not simply engage in self study, they will seek out a wide variety of scholars and imams also, particularly well educated ones. And they would not insist that an entire religion is barbaric. Thats not only ignorant but terribly irresponsible.

If she continues to babble on this way, and succeeds in her intent to foster hatred, mistrust, and rancor between Muslims and Christians and Jews, it may have the unintended consequence of inflaming some people, and then inspiring them into violent retaliation. Thus, its this biased hateful version of Islam she insists is representative of all Muslims that might actually give rise to even more hateful and violent reactions.

Oooh, goody. If ISIS beheads a few more people tomorrow, it will be all my fault.

I don't think anyone here insisted that the entire religion is barbaric. You made that up to make yourself look better. Although I have to say that the number of times you repeated "CRUSADER EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN ISLAMOPHOBE RACIST" has certainly advanced this cause.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again and again you make the crucial point of confusing Muslim practice with Islam. You are so emotional that you simply can not evaluate Islam objectively. You said many many pages back that your husband's family pressures you to convert. Its no wonder you're incapable of being objective.

You need to separate the forest from the trees. Remember, Hitlers actions does not reflect badly on all German citizens for eternity. Separate Islam the religion from the people, AND PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE PRODUCTS OF TRIBAL AREAS, TRADITIONAL CULTURAL UPBRINGING. Its absolutely unbelievable to me you judge the faith of 1.6 bil people based on actions of a handful of assholes and that you ignore the meaning and historical context of the Quran.

What's absolutely unbelievable to ME is your assumption that you're talking with the same, and only one person. Do you realize that the a) punjabi person, and b) woman whose husband's family pressured her to convert might just possibly be two separate people?

It may be or might not be. The issue is not whether Muslims have comitted atrocities. They have. Some still do. But an educated person should recognize it may not reflect poorly on the religion, particularly if the vast majority of the 1.6 billion are peaceful. An educated person does not read other people's religious scriptures literally with zero regard to historical context. An educated person who wants to completely understand a faith will not simply engage in self study, they will seek out a wide variety of scholars and imams also, particularly well educated ones. And they would not insist that an entire religion is barbaric. Thats not only ignorant but terribly irresponsible.

If she continues to babble on this way, and succeeds in her intent to foster hatred, mistrust, and rancor between Muslims and Christians and Jews, it may have the unintended consequence of inflaming some people, and then inspiring them into violent retaliation. Thus, its this biased hateful version of Islam she insists is representative of all Muslims that might actually give rise to even more hateful and violent reactions.

You and your friends have no problem quoting scriptures literally when it fits your narrative. So really, what is the difference between you and me?

If you include into the "well educated imams" the person who told you the only reliable collection of ahadith is somewhere in Saudi Arabia under lock and key, unreleased into the world for some unfathomable reason, then I'm afraid your definition of "educated" differs from mine.

PS: I asked my Saudi husband if that might possibly be true. When he was done laughing, he said if you believe this, you probably also believe in jinns.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While you may not be able to verbally force conversion, you use plenty of other tactics:

1. Jizya- tax-- Are we getting that verse wrong from the Quran too?

In Islam Jizya may not be imposed on women, children the disabled, the elderly or the poor YET the Islamic State MUst provide shelter, protection to nonMuslims in exchange and they may NOT compel nonMuslims to military duty. How is this oppressive? Remember that Muslim countries don't really impose Jizya anymore.

2. Witholding of jobs-- ask the Christian and Hindu families in Pakistan about this.

Are you kidding me? Have you visited Pakistan? I have. My uncle's father was brutally murdered by Hindus and had to flee to Pakistan during the war. Have you visited India? I have. In fact my father lived there for a while. Muslims are still intensely discriminated in jobs despite their qualifications. You like to speak with great authority. You have illusions of grandeur about your understanding of the world and Islam. I do question, however, how many Muslims you personally know, how many scholars or Imams you have personally spoken to, and how many Muslim countries you have visited for an extended period of time or lived in. You have such a big ego that you can't possibly imagine being wrong about anything on the subject of Islam. But here you are, wrong again. You would learn more with a dose of humility.


3. "Love Jihad"-- Google it- it's rampant in England and India.

4. Destruction of other religious places of worship. -- plenty to choose from.

Yes. And historically, only Muslims destroyed other people's places of worship. Are you joking?!


5. The Almighty Sword.-- An Islamic tradition--
-Ask the MILLIONS of Sikhs and Hindus killed during partition.

-The Hindus in Kashmir forced to flee or convert or die.- Read up on the ethnic cleansing and forced exit of over 400,000 Kashmiri Hindu Pundits. Many whom still, 20 years later, still live in refugee camps.

You have a lot of nerve bringing up people who were killed during this partition because I don't think you even knew ONE person who died. I did. I have family members that were directly impacted by this partition. So get off your high horse and try living there to understand what it was truly like for Muslims also.

-The Hindus and Christians still being persecuted today in Pakistan.

Sorry but Pakistan is one of the most corrupt Muslim countries. It's not a role model for true Islam.

- The current persecution in Burma, forcing Hindus to flee and seek refugee status elsewhere, including here in the U.S.

-The GENOCIDE in Bangladesh. --http://www.genocidebangladesh.org

-The beheading of Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur for not converting by Aurangzeb during his bloody mission to convert all of India to Islam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Tegh_Bahadurhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Tegh_Bahadur


But they're not TRUE Muslims right? No one is truly compelling anyone to convert right? They have no idea whatsoever about the religion they claim to practice. And they've had no idea for 1000s of years either it seems. They keep making the same mistakes, over and over and over…


But remember, you don't put much relevance in what PEOPLE do, right? Isn't that what you said to Jeff? You want scriptural proof, which was amply provided. Then when I provided scriptural proof, you changed your mind, shifted, and sought evidence of what the Muslim population does.


Why is it taking so long for such huge numbers of Muslims to get it right?? Why is it taking so long for such huge numbers of Muslims to stop behaving with such violence all.over.the.world?? Across cultures and countries?

Because as Muslima and I have tried to tell you over and over and over again which you simply can't seem to comprehend is that pre Islamic Arabia was a hedonistic, uncivilized, and brutal society. It necessitated Allah send a messenger to warn people. Tribal culture and patriarchal traditions were pervasive, womens and childrens rights were trampled, there was deception in trade, abusive usury, etc..It is extremely difficult to bring such people to an enlightened state of mind. Islam has accomplished a lot but traditions and cultural mindset are very deeply entrenched.

Why do you focus exclusively on Islam and Muslims? The treatment of native American Indians was tantamount to genocide. What was the Indian Removal Act about? The 13th Amendment abolishing slavery was enacted in the late 1800's. What about the genocide of Bosnian Muslims at the hands of Serbs in 1995? Have you ever even known a Bosnian refugee? I was young during that time but my family and I helped many. Do you even know about the Uigher Muslims in China and how they are treated? Do you even know one person who's Uigher from that area that can speak of the mistreatment at the hands of the Chinese government? I do. What about the Palestinian people and the oppression they live under? Do you even know any Palestinian Muslims? I do. So do me a favor…it's time for you to sit down. STOP VILIFYING ISLAM.

In this post you keep referring to me a someone you think has been posting multiple times. I have not been, and you don't know about me or my history. There are many people on this board and we all bring our different experiences to the table.

I'm not posting from a place of ego or with any evil intent. What I have posted above are FACTS. You've accused me of not knowing what I speak of and that I have no clue about the things I've posted. As a person that hails from Punjab I know every word of what I wrote. I had family members burned alive during Partition. Kicked out of their homes during Partition. Family friends in Kashmir escaped death narrowly 25 years back. The members of their village systematically being forced to convert or die. Denying the facts doesn't make them less so.

I've not participated very much in these Islam threads but starting a topic where you act as if Islam does not force conversion by some means or another is sticking point. While you claim the "proper" Islam does not do so, I've yet to find that not in practice where Muslims are majority. As soon as they are in the majority the religion of peace goes to the religion of violence and "corrupt" practices of Islamic rule.

Why is that?

As far as your reference to Pre-Islamic Arabia being a "hedonistic, uncivilized, and brutal society", I'd like to see your sources for that. Pre-Islamic Arabia survived for centuries. The people living there were Christians, Jewish, Zorastrian, and Polytheists. They had civilizations, they traded, they had leaders.

How exactly were they "hedonistic and uncivilized" so much so that it "necessitated Allah to send a messenger to warn people"?

You said that the deeply entrenched ways of tribal cultures were hedonistic and uncivilized and brutal that's why Islam was necessitated. But when anyone criticizes the apparently improper (and often brutal and uncivilized) practices of Islam in recent history or in today's society you still use the excuse that it's not the religion it's the deeply entrenched ways of the culture. Do you see the perplexing dialogue here? It was necessitated because people were misbehaving... it's not practiced properly because people are misbehaving.


And, yes, I do have Muslim friends. My closest are actually Pakistani Muslims. We've talk about these things, we've even argued over these things, but unlike what is being done here, the facts were not denied. We know there has been hurt, pain, and suffering on both sides and we can accept those things. We know that we are a new generation and that we don't want to bear the anger that our parents and grandparents harbor so we move forward. But the first step to moving forward is acceptance not denial.





How strange. I have Jewish, Christian, Hindu friends and we don't argue at all. I do not expect them to be spokespeople for the fanatical extremists in their religion. I know they have no control over extremists just as any individual Muslim has no control over terrorists. And I do not judge their entire faith based on the actions of a few. That goes for Hinduism despite the fact that Hindus slit the throat of my relative during the Indian-Pakistan partition.

Your denial still exists. You deny that the practice of Islam may be different from the actual religion in some parts of the world. And you deny Islam may have positive aspects. I, on the other hand, acknowledge the atrocities committed in the name of Islam by some and I acknowledge scholars that have a harsher interpretation, but they are not representative of Islam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again and again you make the crucial point of confusing Muslim practice with Islam. You are so emotional that you simply can not evaluate Islam objectively. You said many many pages back that your husband's family pressures you to convert. Its no wonder you're incapable of being objective.

You need to separate the forest from the trees. Remember, Hitlers actions does not reflect badly on all German citizens for eternity. Separate Islam the religion from the people, AND PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE PRODUCTS OF TRIBAL AREAS, TRADITIONAL CULTURAL UPBRINGING. Its absolutely unbelievable to me you judge the faith of 1.6 bil people based on actions of a handful of assholes and that you ignore the meaning and historical context of the Quran.

What's absolutely unbelievable to ME is your assumption that you're talking with the same, and only one person. Do you realize that the a) punjabi person, and b) woman whose husband's family pressured her to convert might just possibly be two separate people?

It may be or might not be. The issue is not whether Muslims have comitted atrocities. They have. Some still do. But an educated person should recognize it may not reflect poorly on the religion, particularly if the vast majority of the 1.6 billion are peaceful. An educated person does not read other people's religious scriptures literally with zero regard to historical context. An educated person who wants to completely understand a faith will not simply engage in self study, they will seek out a wide variety of scholars and imams also, particularly well educated ones. And they would not insist that an entire religion is barbaric. Thats not only ignorant but terribly irresponsible.

If she continues to babble on this way, and succeeds in her intent to foster hatred, mistrust, and rancor between Muslims and Christians and Jews, it may have the unintended consequence of inflaming some people, and then inspiring them into violent retaliation. Thus, its this biased hateful version of Islam she insists is representative of all Muslims that might actually give rise to even more hateful and violent reactions.

Oooh, goody. If ISIS beheads a few more people tomorrow, it will be all my fault.

I don't think anyone here insisted that the entire religion is barbaric. You made that up to make yourself look better. Although I have to say that the number of times you repeated "CRUSADER EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN ISLAMOPHOBE RACIST" has certainly advanced this cause.

You have somehow mistaken me for someone who cares about what you think. You are an islamophobe. You hate Islam, the whole of it.

[Anonymous]

Muslim PP, I agree with another PP who said you do not, and cannot, speak for all Islam. Nobody is challenging your right to your personal interpretation of Islam. If you think you know better than other practicing Muslims, that's obviously your total right and also your lookout. If you're reading from the How to Convert Kaffirs playbook, then I'm annoyed because you probably know better than to say some of the things you say, but then again maybe you don't know better.

Where several of us have an issue is when you represent your Islam as the only "true" Islam. Particularly since you do get things wrong (on this thread, how concubines are only freed after the master dies). Particularly since millions of Muslims are following somebody else's Islam, maybe al Azhar's Islam or Sistani's Islam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again and again you make the crucial point of confusing Muslim practice with Islam. You are so emotional that you simply can not evaluate Islam objectively. You said many many pages back that your husband's family pressures you to convert. Its no wonder you're incapable of being objective.

You need to separate the forest from the trees. Remember, Hitlers actions does not reflect badly on all German citizens for eternity. Separate Islam the religion from the people, AND PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE PRODUCTS OF TRIBAL AREAS, TRADITIONAL CULTURAL UPBRINGING. Its absolutely unbelievable to me you judge the faith of 1.6 bil people based on actions of a handful of assholes and that you ignore the meaning and historical context of the Quran.

What's absolutely unbelievable to ME is your assumption that you're talking with the same, and only one person. Do you realize that the a) punjabi person, and b) woman whose husband's family pressured her to convert might just possibly be two separate people?

It may be or might not be. The issue is not whether Muslims have comitted atrocities. They have. Some still do. But an educated person should recognize it may not reflect poorly on the religion, particularly if the vast majority of the 1.6 billion are peaceful. An educated person does not read other people's religious scriptures literally with zero regard to historical context. An educated person who wants to completely understand a faith will not simply engage in self study, they will seek out a wide variety of scholars and imams also, particularly well educated ones. And they would not insist that an entire religion is barbaric. Thats not only ignorant but terribly irresponsible.

If she continues to babble on this way, and succeeds in her intent to foster hatred, mistrust, and rancor between Muslims and Christians and Jews, it may have the unintended consequence of inflaming some people, and then inspiring them into violent retaliation. Thus, its this biased hateful version of Islam she insists is representative of all Muslims that might actually give rise to even more hateful and violent reactions.

Oooh, goody. If ISIS beheads a few more people tomorrow, it will be all my fault.

I don't think anyone here insisted that the entire religion is barbaric. You made that up to make yourself look better. Although I have to say that the number of times you repeated "CRUSADER EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN ISLAMOPHOBE RACIST" has certainly advanced this cause.

You have somehow mistaken me for someone who cares about what you think. You are an islamophobe. You hate Islam, the whole of it.

Oh darlin', if caring what other people think was a requirement for posting, this board would have been empty. Besides, why do you answer if you don't care?

I'm Islam-neutral. It's like any other religion - has beautiful bits and unlovely bits both. You chose to focus your energies on the defense of the unlovely bits like polygamy and concubinage. I have no problem in calling them unlovely. Luckily, I'm not Muslim so the burden of accepting all or nothing doesn't weigh heavily on me. You're just angry someone who responds to you has some actual knowledge of the subject.

You never answered, and I'm genuinely and coolly curious: why is "EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN CRUSADER" a default insult of choice for you, even when you know nothing of the poster's religion? Why not, for instance, a "DIRTY ZIONIST"? Or a "COW WORSHIPPING HINDU"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Muslim PP, I agree with another PP who said you do not, and cannot, speak for all Islam. Nobody is challenging your right to your personal interpretation of Islam. If you think you know better than other practicing Muslims, that's obviously your total right and also your lookout. If you're reading from the How to Convert Kaffirs playbook, then I'm annoyed because you probably know better than to say some of the things you say, but then again maybe you don't know better.

Where several of us have an issue is when you represent your Islam as the only "true" Islam. Particularly since you do get things wrong (on this thread, how concubines are only freed after the master dies). Particularly since millions of Muslims are following somebody else's Islam, maybe al Azhar's Islam or Sistani's Islam.

Don't beat up on my boy Sistani, he's way cool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Muslim PP, I agree with another PP who said you do not, and cannot, speak for all Islam. Nobody is challenging your right to your personal interpretation of Islam. If you think you know better than other practicing Muslims, that's obviously your total right and also your lookout. If you're reading from the How to Convert Kaffirs playbook, then I'm annoyed because you probably know better than to say some of the things you say, but then again maybe you don't know better.

Where several of us have an issue is when you represent your Islam as the only "true" Islam. Particularly since you do get things wrong (on this thread, how concubines are only freed after the master dies). Particularly since millions of Muslims are following somebody else's Islam, maybe al Azhar's Islam or Sistani's Islam.

Don't beat up on my boy Sistani, he's way cool.

Hey, I said he has as much or more street cred as OP!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Muslim PP, I agree with another PP who said you do not, and cannot, speak for all Islam. Nobody is challenging your right to your personal interpretation of Islam. If you think you know better than other practicing Muslims, that's obviously your total right and also your lookout. If you're reading from the How to Convert Kaffirs playbook, then I'm annoyed because you probably know better than to say some of the things you say, but then again maybe you don't know better.

Where several of us have an issue is when you represent your Islam as the only "true" Islam. Particularly since you do get things wrong (on this thread, how concubines are only freed after the master dies). Particularly since millions of Muslims are following somebody else's Islam, maybe al Azhar's Islam or Sistani's Islam.

Don't forget the "Islam grows more by conversion than by immigration in the U.S." charge. Still waiting for the "yeah, I messed up there".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again and again you make the crucial point of confusing Muslim practice with Islam. You are so emotional that you simply can not evaluate Islam objectively. You said many many pages back that your husband's family pressures you to convert. Its no wonder you're incapable of being objective.

You need to separate the forest from the trees. Remember, Hitlers actions does not reflect badly on all German citizens for eternity. Separate Islam the religion from the people, AND PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE PRODUCTS OF TRIBAL AREAS, TRADITIONAL CULTURAL UPBRINGING. Its absolutely unbelievable to me you judge the faith of 1.6 bil people based on actions of a handful of assholes and that you ignore the meaning and historical context of the Quran.

What's absolutely unbelievable to ME is your assumption that you're talking with the same, and only one person. Do you realize that the a) punjabi person, and b) woman whose husband's family pressured her to convert might just possibly be two separate people?

It may be or might not be. The issue is not whether Muslims have comitted atrocities. They have. Some still do. But an educated person should recognize it may not reflect poorly on the religion, particularly if the vast majority of the 1.6 billion are peaceful. An educated person does not read other people's religious scriptures literally with zero regard to historical context. An educated person who wants to completely understand a faith will not simply engage in self study, they will seek out a wide variety of scholars and imams also, particularly well educated ones. And they would not insist that an entire religion is barbaric. Thats not only ignorant but terribly irresponsible.

If she continues to babble on this way, and succeeds in her intent to foster hatred, mistrust, and rancor between Muslims and Christians and Jews, it may have the unintended consequence of inflaming some people, and then inspiring them into violent retaliation. Thus, its this biased hateful version of Islam she insists is representative of all Muslims that might actually give rise to even more hateful and violent reactions.

Yes, the dialogue here in DCUMland will be the inspiration for violent retaliation. Any disagreement on your version of Islam is hateful and will give rise to violent reactions and foster hatred, mistrust and rancor amongst Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

Not the kidnappings, murders, beheadings, bombings and overall violence that those not proper Muslims are engaged in. Those won't give rise to hateful and violent reactions, leave that to DCUM. So we all just need to hush up, stop sharing, stop discussing, stop questioning, and accept. Lol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again and again you make the crucial point of confusing Muslim practice with Islam. You are so emotional that you simply can not evaluate Islam objectively. You said many many pages back that your husband's family pressures you to convert. Its no wonder you're incapable of being objective.

You need to separate the forest from the trees. Remember, Hitlers actions does not reflect badly on all German citizens for eternity. Separate Islam the religion from the people, AND PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE PRODUCTS OF TRIBAL AREAS, TRADITIONAL CULTURAL UPBRINGING. Its absolutely unbelievable to me you judge the faith of 1.6 bil people based on actions of a handful of assholes and that you ignore the meaning and historical context of the Quran.

What's absolutely unbelievable to ME is your assumption that you're talking with the same, and only one person. Do you realize that the a) punjabi person, and b) woman whose husband's family pressured her to convert might just possibly be two separate people?

It may be or might not be. The issue is not whether Muslims have comitted atrocities. They have. Some still do. But an educated person should recognize it may not reflect poorly on the religion, particularly if the vast majority of the 1.6 billion are peaceful. An educated person does not read other people's religious scriptures literally with zero regard to historical context. An educated person who wants to completely understand a faith will not simply engage in self study, they will seek out a wide variety of scholars and imams also, particularly well educated ones. And they would not insist that an entire religion is barbaric. Thats not only ignorant but terribly irresponsible.

If she continues to babble on this way, and succeeds in her intent to foster hatred, mistrust, and rancor between Muslims and Christians and Jews, it may have the unintended consequence of inflaming some people, and then inspiring them into violent retaliation. Thus, its this biased hateful version of Islam she insists is representative of all Muslims that might actually give rise to even more hateful and violent reactions.

You and your friends have no problem quoting scriptures literally when it fits your narrative. So really, what is the difference between you and me?

If you include into the "well educated imams" the person who told you the only reliable collection of ahadith is somewhere in Saudi Arabia under lock and key, unreleased into the world for some unfathomable reason, then I'm afraid your definition of "educated" differs from mine.

PS: I asked my Saudi husband if that might possibly be true. When he was done laughing, he said if you believe this, you probably also believe in jinns.

Oh dear, Jinns are mentioned in the Quran repeatedly. If he doesn't believe they exist, then who knows if he even buys that the Quran is the word of God.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While you may not be able to verbally force conversion, you use plenty of other tactics:

1. Jizya- tax-- Are we getting that verse wrong from the Quran too?

In Islam Jizya may not be imposed on women, children the disabled, the elderly or the poor YET the Islamic State MUst provide shelter, protection to nonMuslims in exchange and they may NOT compel nonMuslims to military duty. How is this oppressive? Remember that Muslim countries don't really impose Jizya anymore.

2. Witholding of jobs-- ask the Christian and Hindu families in Pakistan about this.

Are you kidding me? Have you visited Pakistan? I have. My uncle's father was brutally murdered by Hindus and had to flee to Pakistan during the war. Have you visited India? I have. In fact my father lived there for a while. Muslims are still intensely discriminated in jobs despite their qualifications. You like to speak with great authority. You have illusions of grandeur about your understanding of the world and Islam. I do question, however, how many Muslims you personally know, how many scholars or Imams you have personally spoken to, and how many Muslim countries you have visited for an extended period of time or lived in. You have such a big ego that you can't possibly imagine being wrong about anything on the subject of Islam. But here you are, wrong again. You would learn more with a dose of humility.


3. "Love Jihad"-- Google it- it's rampant in England and India.

4. Destruction of other religious places of worship. -- plenty to choose from.

Yes. And historically, only Muslims destroyed other people's places of worship. Are you joking?!


5. The Almighty Sword.-- An Islamic tradition--
-Ask the MILLIONS of Sikhs and Hindus killed during partition.

-The Hindus in Kashmir forced to flee or convert or die.- Read up on the ethnic cleansing and forced exit of over 400,000 Kashmiri Hindu Pundits. Many whom still, 20 years later, still live in refugee camps.

You have a lot of nerve bringing up people who were killed during this partition because I don't think you even knew ONE person who died. I did. I have family members that were directly impacted by this partition. So get off your high horse and try living there to understand what it was truly like for Muslims also.

-The Hindus and Christians still being persecuted today in Pakistan.

Sorry but Pakistan is one of the most corrupt Muslim countries. It's not a role model for true Islam.

- The current persecution in Burma, forcing Hindus to flee and seek refugee status elsewhere, including here in the U.S.

-The GENOCIDE in Bangladesh. --http://www.genocidebangladesh.org

-The beheading of Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur for not converting by Aurangzeb during his bloody mission to convert all of India to Islam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Tegh_Bahadurhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Tegh_Bahadur


But they're not TRUE Muslims right? No one is truly compelling anyone to convert right? They have no idea whatsoever about the religion they claim to practice. And they've had no idea for 1000s of years either it seems. They keep making the same mistakes, over and over and over…


But remember, you don't put much relevance in what PEOPLE do, right? Isn't that what you said to Jeff? You want scriptural proof, which was amply provided. Then when I provided scriptural proof, you changed your mind, shifted, and sought evidence of what the Muslim population does.


Why is it taking so long for such huge numbers of Muslims to get it right?? Why is it taking so long for such huge numbers of Muslims to stop behaving with such violence all.over.the.world?? Across cultures and countries?

Because as Muslima and I have tried to tell you over and over and over again which you simply can't seem to comprehend is that pre Islamic Arabia was a hedonistic, uncivilized, and brutal society. It necessitated Allah send a messenger to warn people. Tribal culture and patriarchal traditions were pervasive, womens and childrens rights were trampled, there was deception in trade, abusive usury, etc..It is extremely difficult to bring such people to an enlightened state of mind. Islam has accomplished a lot but traditions and cultural mindset are very deeply entrenched.

Why do you focus exclusively on Islam and Muslims? The treatment of native American Indians was tantamount to genocide. What was the Indian Removal Act about? The 13th Amendment abolishing slavery was enacted in the late 1800's. What about the genocide of Bosnian Muslims at the hands of Serbs in 1995? Have you ever even known a Bosnian refugee? I was young during that time but my family and I helped many. Do you even know about the Uigher Muslims in China and how they are treated? Do you even know one person who's Uigher from that area that can speak of the mistreatment at the hands of the Chinese government? I do. What about the Palestinian people and the oppression they live under? Do you even know any Palestinian Muslims? I do. So do me a favor…it's time for you to sit down. STOP VILIFYING ISLAM.

In this post you keep referring to me a someone you think has been posting multiple times. I have not been, and you don't know about me or my history. There are many people on this board and we all bring our different experiences to the table.

I'm not posting from a place of ego or with any evil intent. What I have posted above are FACTS. You've accused me of not knowing what I speak of and that I have no clue about the things I've posted. As a person that hails from Punjab I know every word of what I wrote. I had family members burned alive during Partition. Kicked out of their homes during Partition. Family friends in Kashmir escaped death narrowly 25 years back. The members of their village systematically being forced to convert or die. Denying the facts doesn't make them less so.

I've not participated very much in these Islam threads but starting a topic where you act as if Islam does not force conversion by some means or another is sticking point. While you claim the "proper" Islam does not do so, I've yet to find that not in practice where Muslims are majority. As soon as they are in the majority the religion of peace goes to the religion of violence and "corrupt" practices of Islamic rule.

Why is that?

As far as your reference to Pre-Islamic Arabia being a "hedonistic, uncivilized, and brutal society", I'd like to see your sources for that. Pre-Islamic Arabia survived for centuries. The people living there were Christians, Jewish, Zorastrian, and Polytheists. They had civilizations, they traded, they had leaders.

How exactly were they "hedonistic and uncivilized" so much so that it "necessitated Allah to send a messenger to warn people"?

You said that the deeply entrenched ways of tribal cultures were hedonistic and uncivilized and brutal that's why Islam was necessitated. But when anyone criticizes the apparently improper (and often brutal and uncivilized) practices of Islam in recent history or in today's society you still use the excuse that it's not the religion it's the deeply entrenched ways of the culture. Do you see the perplexing dialogue here? It was necessitated because people were misbehaving... it's not practiced properly because people are misbehaving.


And, yes, I do have Muslim friends. My closest are actually Pakistani Muslims. We've talk about these things, we've even argued over these things, but unlike what is being done here, the facts were not denied. We know there has been hurt, pain, and suffering on both sides and we can accept those things. We know that we are a new generation and that we don't want to bear the anger that our parents and grandparents harbor so we move forward. But the first step to moving forward is acceptance not denial.





How strange. I have Jewish, Christian, Hindu friends and we don't argue at all. I do not expect them to be spokespeople for the fanatical extremists in their religion. I know they have no control over extremists just as any individual Muslim has no control over terrorists. And I do not judge their entire faith based on the actions of a few. That goes for Hinduism despite the fact that Hindus slit the throat of my relative during the Indian-Pakistan partition.

Your denial still exists. You deny that the practice of Islam may be different from the actual religion in some parts of the world. And you deny Islam may have positive aspects. I, on the other hand, acknowledge the atrocities committed in the name of Islam by some and I acknowledge scholars that have a harsher interpretation, but they are not representative of Islam.

Please show me where in my post I did these things? Where in my post did I deny any positive aspects of Islam? If I thought that all Muslims were hateful, sword carrying terrorists I would not be friends with any, obviously I see good in my Muslim friends, obviously I do not think they are practicing the violent Islamic practices that some practice in other parts of the world. We are close and engage in dialogue. We would not vacation together if there was not a mutual respect for one another, our faiths and our differences.

I stated facts regarding the title of this thread. I then answered your questions as to what background I have. You've responded with nonstop judgements and vilifying. Please step back and just engage in peaceful dialogue.

And this is the very first time that *I* have seen you post any sort of acknowledgement of atrocities in the name of Islam. You have repeated over and over that atrocities were due to cultural and tribal reasons. Perhaps I missed this acknowledgement somewhere.

[Anonymous]

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Again and again you make the crucial point of confusing Muslim practice with Islam. You are so emotional that you simply can not evaluate Islam objectively. You said many many pages back that your husband's family pressures you to convert. Its no wonder you're incapable of being objective.

You need to separate the forest from the trees. Remember, Hitlers actions does not reflect badly on all German citizens for eternity. Separate Islam the religion from the people, AND PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE PRODUCTS OF TRIBAL AREAS, TRADITIONAL CULTURAL UPBRINGING. Its absolutely unbelievable to me you judge the faith of 1.6 bil people based on actions of a handful of assholes and that you ignore the meaning and historical context of the Quran.

What's absolutely unbelievable to ME is your assumption that you're talking with the same, and only one person. Do you realize that the a) punjabi person, and b) woman whose husband's family pressured her to convert might just possibly be two separate people?

It may be or might not be. The issue is not whether Muslims have comitted atrocities. They have. Some still do. But an educated person should recognize it may not reflect poorly on the religion, particularly if the vast majority of the 1.6 billion are peaceful. An educated person does not read other people's religious scriptures literally with zero regard to historical context. An educated person who wants to completely understand a faith will not simply engage in self study, they will seek out a wide variety of scholars and imams also, particularly well educated ones. And they would not insist that an entire religion is barbaric. Thats not only ignorant but terribly irresponsible.

If she continues to babble on this way, and succeeds in her intent to foster hatred, mistrust, and rancor between Muslims and Christians and Jews, it may have the unintended consequence of inflaming some people, and then inspiring them into violent retaliation. Thus, its this biased hateful version of Islam she insists is representative of all Muslims that might actually give rise to even more hateful and violent reactions.

You and your friends have no problem quoting scriptures literally when it fits your narrative. So really, what is the difference between you and me?

If you include into the "well educated imams" the person who told you the only reliable collection of ahadith is somewhere in Saudi Arabia under lock and key, unreleased into the world for some unfathomable reason, then I'm afraid your definition of "educated" differs from mine.

PS: I asked my Saudi husband if that might possibly be true. When he was done laughing, he said if you believe this, you probably also believe in jinns.

Oh dear, Jinns are mentioned in the Quran repeatedly. If he doesn't believe they exist, then who knows if he even buys that the Quran is the word of God.

Aw, the horrors!

[Anonymous]

Here is the advice I gave you pages ago...find a scholar on the World Muslim Council or Fiqh Council and speak to him. Not hard to do.