Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wish the media would cover more about Muslims who are against what the extremists are doing.

How can anyone believe that small groups of terrorists accurately represent Islam or Muslims worldwide?

ISIS is slaughtering Muslims on a daily basis. ISIS is also despicably attacking Christians and Yazidis, but the reality is that over the past five years, close to 90 percent of the victims of these “Islamic” terrorists are Muslims.

Muslims worldwide, have consistently condemned terrorism over the years waged in the name of Islam. We saw this after the 2013 Boston marathon bombing, as Muslims leaders across the United States spoke out. When Boko Haram kidnapped the young girls in Nigeria, Muslims again universally denounced their action, calling them “blasphemous” for claiming their actions were based on the tenets of Islam.

And once again with ISIS we have seen universal condemnation by Muslims leaders in the United States and abroad. For example, the two biggest Muslim-American groups, ISNA and CAIR, unequivocally denounced ISIS. CAIR’s statement notes in part: “American Muslims view the actions of ISIS as un-Islamic and morally repugnant. No religion condones the murder of civilians, the beheading of religious scholars or the desecration of houses of worship.”

In the United Kingdom, 100 Sunni and Shiite Imams have joined together to condemn ISIS. Muslim leaders in Indonesia and Turkey did the same. And the head of the Arab League stated that the league “strongly denounced” ISIS and its attacks on Christians in Iraq.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Forced conversion IS against Islam. The way Islam has spread to communities it conquered is not by forced conversion, but by making non-Muslimness economically unattractive, and Muslimness both economically and socially attractive. I remember reading a study a few years back that looked at prevalence of birth records and names (Muslim vs. non-Muslim) and it figured that it took approximately 200 years for the conquered area to assume Islam as majority religion.

I think it was determined that by 2030 it would be the dominant religion in the United States, I believe the source is the US Cencus.

Oh gawd. You're not going there again, are you? By all means, give us a real source, from the Census or another source. Our problem is that Jeff has told us that contradicting you is simply wrong, and we know he'll come on and call us names. So could you please, oh wise one, at least give us a link to document your own claims, which, oh wonderful one, we know to be true, it's just that we'd sort of, kind of, after all these many pages, see actual proof of this claim.

IDK who Jeff is or who u think I am but:
Based on data, in combination with U.S. Census data, Pew Research Center demographers estimate that there are about 1.8 million Muslim adults and 2.75 million Muslims of all ages (including children under 18) living in the United States in 2011. This represents an increase of roughly 300,000 adults and 100,000 Muslim children since 2007, when Pew Research demographers used similar methods to calculate that there were about 1.5 million Muslim adults (and 2.35 million Muslims of all ages) in the U.S.

The increase is in line with what one would expect from net immigration and natural population growth (births minus deaths) over the past four years. Demographers at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA) in Austria independently estimated the total U.S. Muslim population at about 2.6 million in 2010. The same report also estimated that about 80,000 to 90,000 new Muslim immigrants have been entering the United States annually in recent years.

Now you have to apply the decline of Christianity in the United States. Its just statistics, Im not religious.

More questions:

2.75 million Muslims out of 315 million Americans doesn't seem like a lot, or am I wrong about this?

It seems like Islam would need to gain 1.5 to 2 million more adherents to become a majority religion in the US, or am I wrong about this?

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but at the rate of 400,000 new adherents every four years (i.e., between 2007 and 2011 as Pew showed), it would take 8 years to add about 800,000 new Muslims, and maybe 10 years for a million new Muslims. Am I doing the math right?

So at this rate, of about 1M new Muslims every 10 years, how is it possible that Islam would be the majority religion in the US by 2030, i.e. two decades from now?

Also, does anybody ever leave Islam?

As the Muslim PP knows, we start from the certainty that she's right and we're all wrong to even ask our humble little questions. Obviously I'm missing something, and I'm sure the moderator will crucify me for even asking these question. But I really am curious, and I hope someone can help me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Forced conversion IS against Islam. The way Islam has spread to communities it conquered is not by forced conversion, but by making non-Muslimness economically unattractive, and Muslimness both economically and socially attractive. I remember reading a study a few years back that looked at prevalence of birth records and names (Muslim vs. non-Muslim) and it figured that it took approximately 200 years for the conquered area to assume Islam as majority religion.

I guess beheadings and crucifixions is one way of making not being a muslim socially unattractive...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Forced conversion IS against Islam. The way Islam has spread to communities it conquered is not by forced conversion, but by making non-Muslimness economically unattractive, and Muslimness both economically and socially attractive. I remember reading a study a few years back that looked at prevalence of birth records and names (Muslim vs. non-Muslim) and it figured that it took approximately 200 years for the conquered area to assume Islam as majority religion.

I guess beheadings and crucifixions is one way of making not being a muslim socially unattractive...

Not to get in the way of Muslim PP's right to say whatever the hell she wants, but at least on this count I can clarify your statement, which is incorrect, so perhaps I will be allowed to speak.

The Quran reserves death for polytheists. Christians and Jews are either slaves or dhimmis, so the Quran doesn't sanction killing Christians and Jews (except in that one place where it suggests killing Jews).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, could you please explain what Dhimmis are?

In that explanation, could you please include the special taxes they have to pay to Muslims, per the Quran?

Could you please address whether you think taxing non-Muslims is a form of economic coercion? If you don't think so, why not?

Could you please explain what the Quran says about how polytheists should be treated?

TIA!

Taxing came in exchange for waived duty to serve in Muslim armies.

Could Muslim men get out of the duty to serve in the army? Or is jihad obligatory on all Muslim men?

That's up to the state, but to the extent that draft applies to all citizens, yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, could you please explain what Dhimmis are?

In that explanation, could you please include the special taxes they have to pay to Muslims, per the Quran?

Could you please address whether you think taxing non-Muslims is a form of economic coercion? If you don't think so, why not?

Could you please explain what the Quran says about how polytheists should be treated?

TIA!

Taxing came in exchange for waived duty to serve in Muslim armies.

Could Muslim men get out of the duty to serve in the army? Or is jihad obligatory on all Muslim men?

That's up to the state, but to the extent that draft applies to all citizens, yes.

How about in the Quran or as interpreted by a range of theologians?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, could you please explain what Dhimmis are?

In that explanation, could you please include the special taxes they have to pay to Muslims, per the Quran?

Could you please address whether you think taxing non-Muslims is a form of economic coercion? If you don't think so, why not?

Could you please explain what the Quran says about how polytheists should be treated?

TIA!

Taxing came in exchange for waived duty to serve in Muslim armies.

You didn't answer the questions. Is the tax on dhimmis 10% or some other figure?

How do you think this might affect a dhimmi's willingness to embrace Islam?

There are other people responding besides me, the OP.

Frankly, if Jizya is less than the zakat for muslims, and it exempts nonMuslims from military service yet still entitles them to the same protection, I would think nonMuslims have it a bit easier. Nothing oppressive in that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish the media would cover more about Muslims who are against what the extremists are doing.

How can anyone believe that small groups of terrorists accurately represent Islam or Muslims worldwide?


ISIS is slaughtering Muslims on a daily basis. ISIS is also despicably attacking Christians and Yazidis, but the reality is that over the past five years, close to 90 percent of the victims of these “Islamic” terrorists are Muslims.

Muslims worldwide, have consistently condemned terrorism over the years waged in the name of Islam. We saw this after the 2013 Boston marathon bombing, as Muslims leaders across the United States spoke out. When Boko Haram kidnapped the young girls in Nigeria, Muslims again universally denounced their action, calling them “blasphemous” for claiming their actions were based on the tenets of Islam.

And once again with ISIS we have seen universal condemnation by Muslims leaders in the United States and abroad. For example, the two biggest Muslim-American groups, ISNA and CAIR, unequivocally denounced ISIS. CAIR’s statement notes in part: “American Muslims view the actions of ISIS as un-Islamic and morally repugnant. No religion condones the murder of civilians, the beheading of religious scholars or the desecration of houses of worship.”

In the United Kingdom, 100 Sunni and Shiite Imams have joined together to condemn ISIS. Muslim leaders in Indonesia and Turkey did the same. And the head of the Arab League stated that the league “strongly denounced” ISIS and its attacks on Christians in Iraq.

Agreed. The actions of extremists are not representative of the Islam that is peacefully practiced all over the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Forced conversion IS against Islam. The way Islam has spread to communities it conquered is not by forced conversion, but by making non-Muslimness economically unattractive, and Muslimness both economically and socially attractive. I remember reading a study a few years back that looked at prevalence of birth records and names (Muslim vs. non-Muslim) and it figured that it took approximately 200 years for the conquered area to assume Islam as majority religion.

I think it was determined that by 2030 it would be the dominant religion in the United States, I believe the source is the US Cencus.

Oh gawd. You're not going there again, are you? By all means, give us a real source, from the Census or another source. Our problem is that Jeff has told us that contradicting you is simply wrong, and we know he'll come on and call us names. So could you please, oh wise one, at least give us a link to document your own claims, which, oh wonderful one, we know to be true, it's just that we'd sort of, kind of, after all these many pages, see actual proof of this claim.

IDK who Jeff is or who u think I am but:
Based on data, in combination with U.S. Census data, Pew Research Center demographers estimate that there are about 1.8 million Muslim adults and 2.75 million Muslims of all ages (including children under 18) living in the United States in 2011. This represents an increase of roughly 300,000 adults and 100,000 Muslim children since 2007, when Pew Research demographers used similar methods to calculate that there were about 1.5 million Muslim adults (and 2.35 million Muslims of all ages) in the U.S.

The increase is in line with what one would expect from net immigration and natural population growth (births minus deaths) over the past four years. Demographers at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA) in Austria independently estimated the total U.S. Muslim population at about 2.6 million in 2010. The same report also estimated that about 80,000 to 90,000 new Muslim immigrants have been entering the United States annually in recent years.

Now you have to apply the decline of Christianity in the United States. Its just statistics, Im not religious.

More questions:

2.75 million Muslims out of 315 million Americans doesn't seem like a lot, or am I wrong about this?

It seems like Islam would need to gain 1.5 to 2 million more adherents to become a majority religion in the US, or am I wrong about this?

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but at the rate of 400,000 new adherents every four years (i.e., between 2007 and 2011 as Pew showed), it would take 8 years to add about 800,000 new Muslims, and maybe 10 years for a million new Muslims. Am I doing the math right?

So at this rate, of about 1M new Muslims every 10 years, how is it possible that Islam would be the majority religion in the US by 2030, i.e. two decades from now?

Also, does anybody ever leave Islam?

As the Muslim PP knows, we start from the certainty that she's right and we're all wrong to even ask our humble little questions. Obviously I'm missing something, and I'm sure the moderator will crucify me for even asking these question. But I really am curious, and I hope someone can help me.

You are missing something. You are hijacking this thread to thwart discussion of the topic. The topic is compelling conversion in Islam. Get off this thread or stick to the topic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

There are other people responding besides me, the OP.

Frankly, if Jizya is less than the zakat for muslims, and it exempts nonMuslims from military service yet still entitles them to the same protection, I would think nonMuslims have it a bit easier. Nothing oppressive in that.

Jizya amount has never been fixed to a percentage. It has always been up to the rulers of a particular community. Thus, the claim that it is less that zakat (fixed at 2.5%) is nonsense.

For those of you fixated on the amount, read the rest of the line "so that they consider themselves subdued." Jizya is the symbol of submission to the Islamic state. Not alliance, not friendship, not affection. Submission.

I should also point out that rulers throughout history have differed on much humiliation they wanted to express toward their non-Muslim citizens. The Ottoman empire has traditionally been very tolerant of non-Muslims, for instance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Frankly, if Jizya is less than the zakat for muslims, and it exempts nonMuslims from military service yet still entitles them to the same protection, I would think nonMuslims have it a bit easier. Nothing oppressive in that.

Being treated as a second class citizen IS oppressive, and no one would claim that in an Islamic state, the status of Muslims is equal to that of non-Muslims. Islamic states very clearly and unapologetically privilege one over the other.

[Anonymous]

While you may not be able to verbally force conversion, you use plenty of other tactics:

1. Jizya- tax-- Are we getting that verse wrong from the Quran too?

2. Witholding of jobs-- ask the Christian and Hindu families in Pakistan about this.

3. "Love Jihad"-- Google it- it's rampant in England and India.

4. Destruction of other religious places of worship. -- plenty to choose from.

5. The Almighty Sword.-- An Islamic tradition--
-Ask the MILLIONS of Sikhs and Hindus killed during partition.

-The Hindus in Kashmir forced to flee or convert or die.- Read up on the ethnic cleansing and forced exit of over 400,000 Kashmiri Hindu Pundits. Many whom still, 20 years later, still live in refugee camps.

-The Hindus and Christians still being persecuted today in Pakistan.

- The current persecution in Burma, forcing Hindus to flee and seek refugee status elsewhere, including here in the U.S.

-The GENOCIDE in Bangladesh. --http://www.genocidebangladesh.org

-The beheading of Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur for not converting by Aurangzeb during his bloody mission to convert all of India to Islam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Tegh_Bahadurhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Tegh_Bahadur


But they're not TRUE Muslims right? No one is truly compelling anyone to convert right? They have no idea whatsoever about the religion they claim to practice. And they've had no idea for 1000s of years either it seems. They keep making the same mistakes, over and over and over...

Why is it taking so long for such huge numbers of Muslims to get it right?? Why is it taking so long for such huge numbers of Muslims to stop behaving with such violence all.over.the.world?? Across cultures and countries?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think it was determined that by 2030 it would be the dominant religion in the United States, I believe the source is the US Cencus.

Oh gawd. You're not going there again, are you? By all means, give us a real source, from the Census or another source. Our problem is that Jeff has told us that contradicting you is simply wrong, and we know he'll come on and call us names. So could you please, oh wise one, at least give us a link to document your own claims, which, oh wonderful one, we know to be true, it's just that we'd sort of, kind of, after all these many pages, see actual proof of this claim.

IDK who Jeff is or who u think I am but:
Based on data, in combination with U.S. Census data, Pew Research Center demographers estimate that there are about 1.8 million Muslim adults and 2.75 million Muslims of all ages (including children under 18) living in the United States in 2011. This represents an increase of roughly 300,000 adults and 100,000 Muslim children since 2007, when Pew Research demographers used similar methods to calculate that there were about 1.5 million Muslim adults (and 2.35 million Muslims of all ages) in the U.S.

The increase is in line with what one would expect from net immigration and natural population growth (births minus deaths) over the past four years. Demographers at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA) in Austria independently estimated the total U.S. Muslim population at about 2.6 million in 2010. The same report also estimated that about 80,000 to 90,000 new Muslim immigrants have been entering the United States annually in recent years.

Now you have to apply the decline of Christianity in the United States. Its just statistics, Im not religious.

More questions:

2.75 million Muslims out of 315 million Americans doesn't seem like a lot, or am I wrong about this?

It seems like Islam would need to gain 1.5 to 2 million more adherents to become a majority religion in the US, or am I wrong about this?

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but at the rate of 400,000 new adherents every four years (i.e., between 2007 and 2011 as Pew showed), it would take 8 years to add about 800,000 new Muslims, and maybe 10 years for a million new Muslims. Am I doing the math right?

So at this rate, of about 1M new Muslims every 10 years, how is it possible that Islam would be the majority religion in the US by 2030, i.e. two decades from now?

Also, does anybody ever leave Islam?

As the Muslim PP knows, we start from the certainty that she's right and we're all wrong to even ask our humble little questions. Obviously I'm missing something, and I'm sure the moderator will crucify me for even asking these question. But I really am curious, and I hope someone can help me.

You are missing something. You are hijacking this thread to thwart discussion of the topic. The topic is compelling conversion in Islam. Get off this thread or stick to the topic.

PP at the top raised the topic of a majority-Muslim country by 2030. Cast your eyes up there and see for yourself.

But yes, yes, we are missing something. We're missing that Muslim posters can say anything they damn well please here. Yet if somebody has the temerity, the unmitigated gall, to ask any questions, you and the moderator will show up to tell them to shut up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Forced conversion IS against Islam. The way Islam has spread to communities it conquered is not by forced conversion, but by making non-Muslimness economically unattractive, and Muslimness both economically and socially attractive. I remember reading a study a few years back that looked at prevalence of birth records and names (Muslim vs. non-Muslim) and it figured that it took approximately 200 years for the conquered area to assume Islam as majority religion.

I think it was determined that by 2030 it would be the dominant religion in the United States, I believe the source is the US Cencus.

Oh gawd. You're not going there again, are you? By all means, give us a real source, from the Census or another source. Our problem is that Jeff has told us that contradicting you is simply wrong, and we know he'll come on and call us names. So could you please, oh wise one, at least give us a link to document your own claims, which, oh wonderful one, we know to be true, it's just that we'd sort of, kind of, after all these many pages, see actual proof of this claim.

IDK who Jeff is or who u think I am but:
Based on data, in combination with U.S. Census data, Pew Research Center demographers estimate that there are about 1.8 million Muslim adults and 2.75 million Muslims of all ages (including children under 18) living in the United States in 2011. This represents an increase of roughly 300,000 adults and 100,000 Muslim children since 2007, when Pew Research demographers used similar methods to calculate that there were about 1.5 million Muslim adults (and 2.35 million Muslims of all ages) in the U.S.

The increase is in line with what one would expect from net immigration and natural population growth (births minus deaths) over the past four years. Demographers at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA) in Austria independently estimated the total U.S. Muslim population at about 2.6 million in 2010. The same report also estimated that about 80,000 to 90,000 new Muslim immigrants have been entering the United States annually in recent years.

Now you have to apply the decline of Christianity in the United States. Its just statistics, Im not religious.

More questions:

2.75 million Muslims out of 315 million Americans doesn't seem like a lot, or am I wrong about this?

It seems like Islam would need to gain 1.5 to 2 million more adherents to become a majority religion in the US, or am I wrong about this?

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but at the rate of 400,000 new adherents every four years (i.e., between 2007 and 2011 as Pew showed), it would take 8 years to add about 800,000 new Muslims, and maybe 10 years for a million new Muslims. Am I doing the math right?

So at this rate, of about 1M new Muslims every 10 years, how is it possible that Islam would be the majority religion in the US by 2030, i.e. two decades from now?

Also, does anybody ever leave Islam?

As the Muslim PP knows, we start from the certainty that she's right and we're all wrong to even ask our humble little questions. Obviously I'm missing something, and I'm sure the moderator will crucify me for even asking these question. But I really am curious, and I hope someone can help me.

I think you've forgotten to allow for the decline of Christianity in the United States but Im not PP. but I did look at the Australian Study mentioned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Forced conversion IS against Islam. The way Islam has spread to communities it conquered is not by forced conversion, but by making non-Muslimness economically unattractive, and Muslimness both economically and socially attractive. I remember reading a study a few years back that looked at prevalence of birth records and names (Muslim vs. non-Muslim) and it figured that it took approximately 200 years for the conquered area to assume Islam as majority religion.

I think it was determined that by 2030 it would be the dominant religion in the United States, I believe the source is the US Cencus.

Oh gawd. You're not going there again, are you? By all means, give us a real source, from the Census or another source. Our problem is that Jeff has told us that contradicting you is simply wrong, and we know he'll come on and call us names. So could you please, oh wise one, at least give us a link to document your own claims, which, oh wonderful one, we know to be true, it's just that we'd sort of, kind of, after all these many pages, see actual proof of this claim.

IDK who Jeff is or who u think I am but:
Based on data, in combination with U.S. Census data, Pew Research Center demographers estimate that there are about 1.8 million Muslim adults and 2.75 million Muslims of all ages (including children under 18) living in the United States in 2011. This represents an increase of roughly 300,000 adults and 100,000 Muslim children since 2007, when Pew Research demographers used similar methods to calculate that there were about 1.5 million Muslim adults (and 2.35 million Muslims of all ages) in the U.S.

The increase is in line with what one would expect from net immigration and natural population growth (births minus deaths) over the past four years. Demographers at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA) in Austria independently estimated the total U.S. Muslim population at about 2.6 million in 2010. The same report also estimated that about 80,000 to 90,000 new Muslim immigrants have been entering the United States annually in recent years.

Now you have to apply the decline of Christianity in the United States. Its just statistics, Im not religious.

More questions:

2.75 million Muslims out of 315 million Americans doesn't seem like a lot, or am I wrong about this?

It seems like Islam would need to gain 1.5 to 2 million more adherents to become a majority religion in the US, or am I wrong about this?

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but at the rate of 400,000 new adherents every four years (i.e., between 2007 and 2011 as Pew showed), it would take 8 years to add about 800,000 new Muslims, and maybe 10 years for a million new Muslims. Am I doing the math right?

So at this rate, of about 1M new Muslims every 10 years, how is it possible that Islam would be the majority religion in the US by 2030, i.e. two decades from now?

Also, does anybody ever leave Islam?

As the Muslim PP knows, we start from the certainty that she's right and we're all wrong to even ask our humble little questions. Obviously I'm missing something, and I'm sure the moderator will crucify me for even asking these question. But I really am curious, and I hope someone can help me.

I think you've forgotten to allow for the decline of Christianity in the United States but Im not PP. but I did look at the Australian Study mentioned.

What about the decline of Islam? I personally know three ex-Muslims, including my boss. It seems to be rampant.