Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why do you focus exclusively on Islam and Muslims?

Because that's what this thread is about. I'm not the poster you're arguing with, but here's something that you are clearly after, and something I feel completely comfortable saying:

Christianity and Judaism, and many other religions are as bad as Islam. If all of the world's religions and holy books burned in a bonfire tomorrow, I'd throw a big party the day after.

Well enjoy your private bonfire for one then. But for those of us Christians, Jews, Muslims who do respect one another and want to created a unified front against ISIS..stop trying to break up the unity.

I will respond to the recent posts later...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Why do you focus exclusively on Islam and Muslims?

Because OP, a Muslim, started this thread and called it "Compelling conversion is explicitly prohibited in Islam."

If you don't want people to talk about Islam, don't start threads on it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why do you focus exclusively on Islam and Muslims?

Because that's what this thread is about. I'm not the poster you're arguing with, but here's something that you are clearly after, and something I feel completely comfortable saying:

Christianity and Judaism, and many other religions are as bad as Islam. If all of the world's religions and holy books burned in a bonfire tomorrow, I'd throw a big party the day after.

Well enjoy your private bonfire for one then. But for those of us Christians, Jews, Muslims who do respect one another and want to created a unified front against ISIS..stop trying to break up the unity.

I will respond to the recent posts later...

The unity of monotheism is much of a myth as the unity of ummah.

I have all kinds of respect for Christians, Jews and Muslims, but none for Christianity, Judaism or Islam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's more, too lazy to post:

http://www.dhspriory.org/kenny/views/views21.htm

The following chapter of at-Turtûshî represents the severest and most fanatical of Muslim position regarding Christians.— Although no Muslim country of our time recognizes the dhimma system as part of its laws or constitutions; theoretically all citizens are equal, the 1935 editor of at-Turtûshî expressed this wish in a footnote to this chapter.[2]

The Covenant of `Umar

`Abdarrahmân b. Ghunm said: We wrote to `Umar b. al-Khattâb at the time when he made a settlement with the Christian people of Syria:

To ward off the claims that Mr. Umar didn't know what he was doing:

Umar was the 2nd "enlightened" caliph of the four who immediately followed Muhammad. He was, along with Mr. Abu Bakr, a close companion of the prophet, and the Muslim tradition honors the sahaba (the companions) almost as much Muhammad, and holds their actions in almost as much regard deserving of imitation as Muhammad. Call Umar what you like (and plenty of people have), but uneducated in Islam he wasn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While you may not be able to verbally force conversion, you use plenty of other tactics:

1. Jizya- tax-- Are we getting that verse wrong from the Quran too?

In Islam Jizya may not be imposed on women, children the disabled, the elderly or the poor YET the Islamic State MUst provide shelter, protection to nonMuslims in exchange and they may NOT compel nonMuslims to military duty. How is this oppressive? Remember that Muslim countries don't really impose Jizya anymore.

2. Witholding of jobs-- ask the Christian and Hindu families in Pakistan about this.

Are you kidding me? Have you visited Pakistan? I have. My uncle's father was brutally murdered by Hindus and had to flee to Pakistan during the war. Have you visited India? I have. In fact my father lived there for a while. Muslims are still intensely discriminated in jobs despite their qualifications. You like to speak with great authority. You have illusions of grandeur about your understanding of the world and Islam. I do question, however, how many Muslims you personally know, how many scholars or Imams you have personally spoken to, and how many Muslim countries you have visited for an extended period of time or lived in. You have such a big ego that you can't possibly imagine being wrong about anything on the subject of Islam. But here you are, wrong again. You would learn more with a dose of humility.


3. "Love Jihad"-- Google it- it's rampant in England and India.

4. Destruction of other religious places of worship. -- plenty to choose from.

Yes. And historically, only Muslims destroyed other people's places of worship. Are you joking?!


5. The Almighty Sword.-- An Islamic tradition--
-Ask the MILLIONS of Sikhs and Hindus killed during partition.

-The Hindus in Kashmir forced to flee or convert or die.- Read up on the ethnic cleansing and forced exit of over 400,000 Kashmiri Hindu Pundits. Many whom still, 20 years later, still live in refugee camps.

You have a lot of nerve bringing up people who were killed during this partition because I don't think you even knew ONE person who died. I did. I have family members that were directly impacted by this partition. So get off your high horse and try living there to understand what it was truly like for Muslims also.

-The Hindus and Christians still being persecuted today in Pakistan.

Sorry but Pakistan is one of the most corrupt Muslim countries. It's not a role model for true Islam.

- The current persecution in Burma, forcing Hindus to flee and seek refugee status elsewhere, including here in the U.S.

-The GENOCIDE in Bangladesh. --http://www.genocidebangladesh.org

-The beheading of Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur for not converting by Aurangzeb during his bloody mission to convert all of India to Islam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Tegh_Bahadurhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Tegh_Bahadur


But they're not TRUE Muslims right? No one is truly compelling anyone to convert right? They have no idea whatsoever about the religion they claim to practice. And they've had no idea for 1000s of years either it seems. They keep making the same mistakes, over and over and over…


But remember, you don't put much relevance in what PEOPLE do, right? Isn't that what you said to Jeff? You want scriptural proof, which was amply provided. Then when I provided scriptural proof, you changed your mind, shifted, and sought evidence of what the Muslim population does.


Why is it taking so long for such huge numbers of Muslims to get it right?? Why is it taking so long for such huge numbers of Muslims to stop behaving with such violence all.over.the.world?? Across cultures and countries?

Because as Muslima and I have tried to tell you over and over and over again which you simply can't seem to comprehend is that pre Islamic Arabia was a hedonistic, uncivilized, and brutal society. It necessitated Allah send a messenger to warn people. Tribal culture and patriarchal traditions were pervasive, womens and childrens rights were trampled, there was deception in trade, abusive usury, etc..It is extremely difficult to bring such people to an enlightened state of mind. Islam has accomplished a lot but traditions and cultural mindset are very deeply entrenched.

Why do you focus exclusively on Islam and Muslims? The treatment of native American Indians was tantamount to genocide. What was the Indian Removal Act about? The 13th Amendment abolishing slavery was enacted in the late 1800's. What about the genocide of Bosnian Muslims at the hands of Serbs in 1995? Have you ever even known a Bosnian refugee? I was young during that time but my family and I helped many. Do you even know about the Uigher Muslims in China and how they are treated? Do you even know one person who's Uigher from that area that can speak of the mistreatment at the hands of the Chinese government? I do. What about the Palestinian people and the oppression they live under? Do you even know any Palestinian Muslims? I do. So do me a favor…it's time for you to sit down. STOP VILIFYING ISLAM.

In this post you keep referring to me a someone you think has been posting multiple times. I have not been, and you don't know about me or my history. There are many people on this board and we all bring our different experiences to the table.

I'm not posting from a place of ego or with any evil intent. What I have posted above are FACTS. You've accused me of not knowing what I speak of and that I have no clue about the things I've posted. As a person that hails from Punjab I know every word of what I wrote. I had family members burned alive during Partition. Kicked out of their homes during Partition. Family friends in Kashmir escaped death narrowly 25 years back. The members of their village systematically being forced to convert or die. Denying the facts doesn't make them less so.

I've not participated very much in these Islam threads but starting a topic where you act as if Islam does not force conversion by some means or another is sticking point. While you claim the "proper" Islam does not do so, I've yet to find that not in practice where Muslims are majority. As soon as they are in the majority the religion of peace goes to the religion of violence and "corrupt" practices of Islamic rule.

Why is that?

As far as your reference to Pre-Islamic Arabia being a "hedonistic, uncivilized, and brutal society", I'd like to see your sources for that. Pre-Islamic Arabia survived for centuries. The people living there were Christians, Jewish, Zorastrian, and Polytheists. They had civilizations, they traded, they had leaders.

How exactly were they "hedonistic and uncivilized" so much so that it "necessitated Allah to send a messenger to warn people"?

You said that the deeply entrenched ways of tribal cultures were hedonistic and uncivilized and brutal that's why Islam was necessitated. But when anyone criticizes the apparently improper (and often brutal and uncivilized) practices of Islam in recent history or in today's society you still use the excuse that it's not the religion it's the deeply entrenched ways of the culture. Do you see the perplexing dialogue here? It was necessitated because people were misbehaving... it's not practiced properly because people are misbehaving.


And, yes, I do have Muslim friends. My closest are actually Pakistani Muslims. We've talk about these things, we've even argued over these things, but unlike what is being done here, the facts were not denied. We know there has been hurt, pain, and suffering on both sides and we can accept those things. We know that we are a new generation and that we don't want to bear the anger that our parents and grandparents harbor so we move forward. But the first step to moving forward is acceptance not denial.

[Anonymous]

Actually, the claims that prehistoric Arabia was a bad bad place are advanced primarily by Muslims. Marketing 101.

What do we know from historical sources about what kind of place prehistoric Arabia was?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Are you kidding me? Have you visited Pakistan? I have. My uncle's father was brutally murdered by Hindus and had to flee to Pakistan during the war. Have you visited India? I have. In fact my father lived there for a while. Muslims are still intensely discriminated in jobs despite their qualifications. You like to speak with great authority. You have illusions of grandeur about your understanding of the world and Islam. I do question, however, how many Muslims you personally know, how many scholars or Imams you have personally spoken to, and how many Muslim countries you have visited for an extended period of time or lived in. You have such a big ego that you can't possibly imagine being wrong about anything on the subject of Islam. But here you are, wrong again. You would learn more with a dose of humility.

You have a lot of nerve bringing up people who were killed during this partition because I don't think you even knew ONE person who died. I did. I have family members that were directly impacted by this partition. So get off your high horse and try living there to understand what it was truly like for Muslims also.

Why do you focus exclusively on Islam and Muslims? The treatment of native American Indians was tantamount to genocide. What was the Indian Removal Act about? The 13th Amendment abolishing slavery was enacted in the late 1800's. What about the genocide of Bosnian Muslims at the hands of Serbs in 1995? Have you ever even known a Bosnian refugee? I was young during that time but my family and I helped many. Do you even know about the Uigher Muslims in China and how they are treated? Do you even know one person who's Uigher from that area that can speak of the mistreatment at the hands of the Chinese government? I do. What about the Palestinian people and the oppression they live under? Do you even know any Palestinian Muslims? I do. So do me a favor…it's time for you to sit down. STOP VILIFYING ISLAM.
[/b]
What is it about you that you think you have some exclusive, monopoly "in" on knowing Muslims personally or living in Muslim countries? Muslims are plentiful in this world. People know lots of them. You aren't in any way special for knowing lots of Muslims or living in a Muslim country.

You remind me of these chicks I saw in a booth on Islam during student fairs. They parrot the lines designed to impress wide-eyed freshmen. Once you start talking to them from the place of experience and knowledge, they either begin to yell or get all huffy and puffy. One thing that a Muslim proselytizer cannot stand is a dress-down by an educated kaffir.

You aren't talking to a roomful of freshmen, dear. People in this place have educations. They've traveled. Some, gasp, have Muslim family members. You don't have any special knowledge of Islam, of Muslims, or of Muslim countries. Every single experience you've had has been had by lots of people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Actually, the claims that prehistoric Arabia was a bad bad place are advanced primarily by Muslims. Marketing 101.

What do we know from historical sources about what kind of place prehistoric Arabia was?

Prehistoric Arabia was actually an epicenter of trade, the heart of the Silk Road. It was a real mixing bowl of religions and ideas.

[Anonymous]

OP I supporting your assertion on this matter. I am not Muslim but my husband is, he is from the middle east and not an American citizen. He has told me the same thing. Something about , you can not change the heart of a person so you can not force the to become Muslim. Although his parents still live in the middle east, 2 of his sisters converted to Christianity and it caused no problems within his family either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP I supporting your assertion on this matter. I am not Muslim but my husband is, he is from the middle east and not an American citizen. He has told me the same thing. Something about , you can not change the heart of a person so you can not force the to become Muslim. Although his parents still live in the middle east, 2 of his sisters converted to Christianity and it caused no problems within his family either.

I am sure that you know that this is not at all a typical reaction among Middle Eastern families.

And to be fair, no one in the family is throwing parties when non-Muslim girls convert into Islam, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While you may not be able to verbally force conversion, you use plenty of other tactics:

1. Jizya- tax-- Are we getting that verse wrong from the Quran too?

In Islam Jizya may not be imposed on women, children the disabled, the elderly or the poor YET the Islamic State MUst provide shelter, protection to nonMuslims in exchange and they may NOT compel nonMuslims to military duty. How is this oppressive? Remember that Muslim countries don't really impose Jizya anymore.

2. Witholding of jobs-- ask the Christian and Hindu families in Pakistan about this.

Are you kidding me? Have you visited Pakistan? I have. My uncle's father was brutally murdered by Hindus and had to flee to Pakistan during the war. Have you visited India? I have. In fact my father lived there for a while. Muslims are still intensely discriminated in jobs despite their qualifications. You like to speak with great authority. You have illusions of grandeur about your understanding of the world and Islam. I do question, however, how many Muslims you personally know, how many scholars or Imams you have personally spoken to, and how many Muslim countries you have visited for an extended period of time or lived in. You have such a big ego that you can't possibly imagine being wrong about anything on the subject of Islam. But here you are, wrong again. You would learn more with a dose of humility.


3. "Love Jihad"-- Google it- it's rampant in England and India.

4. Destruction of other religious places of worship. -- plenty to choose from.

Yes. And historically, only Muslims destroyed other people's places of worship. Are you joking?!


5. The Almighty Sword.-- An Islamic tradition--
-Ask the MILLIONS of Sikhs and Hindus killed during partition.

-The Hindus in Kashmir forced to flee or convert or die.- Read up on the ethnic cleansing and forced exit of over 400,000 Kashmiri Hindu Pundits. Many whom still, 20 years later, still live in refugee camps.

You have a lot of nerve bringing up people who were killed during this partition because I don't think you even knew ONE person who died. I did. I have family members that were directly impacted by this partition. So get off your high horse and try living there to understand what it was truly like for Muslims also.

-The Hindus and Christians still being persecuted today in Pakistan.

Sorry but Pakistan is one of the most corrupt Muslim countries. It's not a role model for true Islam.

- The current persecution in Burma, forcing Hindus to flee and seek refugee status elsewhere, including here in the U.S.

-The GENOCIDE in Bangladesh. --http://www.genocidebangladesh.org

-The beheading of Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur for not converting by Aurangzeb during his bloody mission to convert all of India to Islam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Tegh_Bahadurhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Tegh_Bahadur


But they're not TRUE Muslims right? No one is truly compelling anyone to convert right? They have no idea whatsoever about the religion they claim to practice. And they've had no idea for 1000s of years either it seems. They keep making the same mistakes, over and over and over…


But remember, you don't put much relevance in what PEOPLE do, right? Isn't that what you said to Jeff? You want scriptural proof, which was amply provided. Then when I provided scriptural proof, you changed your mind, shifted, and sought evidence of what the Muslim population does.


Why is it taking so long for such huge numbers of Muslims to get it right?? Why is it taking so long for such huge numbers of Muslims to stop behaving with such violence all.over.the.world?? Across cultures and countries?

Because as Muslima and I have tried to tell you over and over and over again which you simply can't seem to comprehend is that pre Islamic Arabia was a hedonistic, uncivilized, and brutal society. It necessitated Allah send a messenger to warn people. Tribal culture and patriarchal traditions were pervasive, womens and childrens rights were trampled, there was deception in trade, abusive usury, etc..It is extremely difficult to bring such people to an enlightened state of mind. Islam has accomplished a lot but traditions and cultural mindset are very deeply entrenched.

Why do you focus exclusively on Islam and Muslims? The treatment of native American Indians was tantamount to genocide. What was the Indian Removal Act about? The 13th Amendment abolishing slavery was enacted in the late 1800's. What about the genocide of Bosnian Muslims at the hands of Serbs in 1995? Have you ever even known a Bosnian refugee? I was young during that time but my family and I helped many. Do you even know about the Uigher Muslims in China and how they are treated? Do you even know one person who's Uigher from that area that can speak of the mistreatment at the hands of the Chinese government? I do. What about the Palestinian people and the oppression they live under? Do you even know any Palestinian Muslims? I do. So do me a favor…it's time for you to sit down. STOP VILIFYING ISLAM.

In this post you keep referring to me a someone you think has been posting multiple times. I have not been, and you don't know about me or my history. There are many people on this board and we all bring our different experiences to the table.

I'm not posting from a place of ego or with any evil intent. What I have posted above are FACTS. You've accused me of not knowing what I speak of and that I have no clue about the things I've posted. As a person that hails from Punjab I know every word of what I wrote. I had family members burned alive during Partition. Kicked out of their homes during Partition. Family friends in Kashmir escaped death narrowly 25 years back. The members of their village systematically being forced to convert or die. Denying the facts doesn't make them less so.

I've not participated very much in these Islam threads but starting a topic where you act as if Islam does not force conversion by some means or another is sticking point. While you claim the "proper" Islam does not do so, I've yet to find that not in practice where Muslims are majority. As soon as they are in the majority the religion of peace goes to the religion of violence and "corrupt" practices of Islamic rule.

Why is that?

As far as your reference to Pre-Islamic Arabia being a "hedonistic, uncivilized, and brutal society", I'd like to see your sources for that. Pre-Islamic Arabia survived for centuries. The people living there were Christians, Jewish, Zorastrian, and Polytheists. They had civilizations, they traded, they had leaders.

How exactly were they "hedonistic and uncivilized" so much so that it "necessitated Allah to send a messenger to warn people"?

You said that the deeply entrenched ways of tribal cultures were hedonistic and uncivilized and brutal that's why Islam was necessitated. But when anyone criticizes the apparently improper (and often brutal and uncivilized) practices of Islam in recent history or in today's society you still use the excuse that it's not the religion it's the deeply entrenched ways of the culture. Do you see the perplexing dialogue here? It was necessitated because people were misbehaving... it's not practiced properly because people are misbehaving.


And, yes, I do have Muslim friends. My closest are actually Pakistani Muslims. We've talk about these things, we've even argued over these things, but unlike what is being done here, the facts were not denied. We know there has been hurt, pain, and suffering on both sides and we can accept those things. We know that we are a new generation and that we don't want to bear the anger that our parents and grandparents harbor so we move forward. But the first step to moving forward is acceptance not denial.


This post is so full of it I don't even know where to begin. Did your family members retain exclusive right to wear the badge of martyrdom? My uncles father's throat was slit in front of him. He was 10. He fled to Pakistan, never to return to India again.

Again and again you make the crucial point of confusing Muslim practice with Islam. You are so emotional that you simply can not evaluate Islam objectively. You said many many pages back that your husband's family pressures you to convert. Its no wonder you're incapable of being objective.

You need to separate the forest from the trees. Remember, Hitlers actions does not reflect badly on all German citizens for eternity. Separate Islam the religion from the people, AND PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE PRODUCTS OF TRIBAL AREAS, TRADITIONAL CULTURAL UPBRINGING. Its absolutely unbelievable to me you judge the faith of 1.6 bil people based on actions of a handful of assholes and that you ignore the meaning and historical context of the Quran.

[Anonymous]

Muslim PP, you have been told over and over to stop abusing other posters. You need to stop devaluing Punjabi Poster's personal experiences. Right now. She's right when she says that healing starts with acceptance not with denial.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Are you kidding me? Have you visited Pakistan? I have. My uncle's father was brutally murdered by Hindus and had to flee to Pakistan during the war. Have you visited India? I have. In fact my father lived there for a while. Muslims are still intensely discriminated in jobs despite their qualifications. You like to speak with great authority. You have illusions of grandeur about your understanding of the world and Islam. I do question, however, how many Muslims you personally know, how many scholars or Imams you have personally spoken to, and how many Muslim countries you have visited for an extended period of time or lived in. You have such a big ego that you can't possibly imagine being wrong about anything on the subject of Islam. But here you are, wrong again. You would learn more with a dose of humility.

You have a lot of nerve bringing up people who were killed during this partition because I don't think you even knew ONE person who died. I did. I have family members that were directly impacted by this partition. So get off your high horse and try living there to understand what it was truly like for Muslims also.

Why do you focus exclusively on Islam and Muslims? The treatment of native American Indians was tantamount to genocide. What was the Indian Removal Act about? The 13th Amendment abolishing slavery was enacted in the late 1800's. What about the genocide of Bosnian Muslims at the hands of Serbs in 1995? Have you ever even known a Bosnian refugee? I was young during that time but my family and I helped many. Do you even know about the Uigher Muslims in China and how they are treated? Do you even know one person who's Uigher from that area that can speak of the mistreatment at the hands of the Chinese government? I do. What about the Palestinian people and the oppression they live under? Do you even know any Palestinian Muslims? I do. So do me a favor…it's time for you to sit down. STOP VILIFYING ISLAM.
[/b]

What is it about you that you think you have some exclusive, monopoly "in" on knowing Muslims personally or living in Muslim countries? Muslims are plentiful in this world. People know lots of them. You aren't in any way special for knowing lots of Muslims or living in a Muslim country.

You remind me of these chicks I saw in a booth on Islam during student fairs. They parrot the lines designed to impress wide-eyed freshmen. Once you start talking to them from the place of experience and knowledge, they either begin to yell or get all huffy and puffy. One thing that a Muslim proselytizer cannot stand is a dress-down by an educated kaffir.

You aren't talking to a roomful of freshmen, dear. People in this place have educations. They've traveled. Some, gasp, have Muslim family members. You don't have any special knowledge of Islam, of Muslims, or of Muslim countries. Every single experience you've had has been had by lots of people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Again and again you make the crucial point of confusing Muslim practice with Islam. You are so emotional that you simply can not evaluate Islam objectively. You said many many pages back that your husband's family pressures you to convert. Its no wonder you're incapable of being objective.

You need to separate the forest from the trees. Remember, Hitlers actions does not reflect badly on all German citizens for eternity. Separate Islam the religion from the people, AND PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE PRODUCTS OF TRIBAL AREAS, TRADITIONAL CULTURAL UPBRINGING. Its absolutely unbelievable to me you judge the faith of 1.6 bil people based on actions of a handful of assholes and that you ignore the meaning and historical context of the Quran.

What's absolutely unbelievable to ME is your assumption that you're talking with the same, and only one person. Do you realize that the a) punjabi person, and b) woman whose husband's family pressured her to convert might just possibly be two separate people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again and again you make the crucial point of confusing Muslim practice with Islam. You are so emotional that you simply can not evaluate Islam objectively. You said many many pages back that your husband's family pressures you to convert. Its no wonder you're incapable of being objective.

You need to separate the forest from the trees. Remember, Hitlers actions does not reflect badly on all German citizens for eternity. Separate Islam the religion from the people, AND PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO ARE PRODUCTS OF TRIBAL AREAS, TRADITIONAL CULTURAL UPBRINGING. Its absolutely unbelievable to me you judge the faith of 1.6 bil people based on actions of a handful of assholes and that you ignore the meaning and historical context of the Quran.

What's absolutely unbelievable to ME is your assumption that you're talking with the same, and only one person. Do you realize that the a) punjabi person, and b) woman whose husband's family pressured her to convert might just possibly be two separate people?

At least she didn't call her an evangelicalcrusaderchristianislamophobe with a fat pentagon file.