If most careers require grad school does where you get your 4 year degree really matter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Outside of law and medicine which jobs require a masters? I think there are far more jobs that Don’t require a masters than ones that do ?

Lots of DC area “policy” jobs do.

Don’t most teachers have a master’s now?

Yeah, teachers get a silly Masters in Education that even teachers think is stupid...but it's an automatic pay bump, so why not.

If I recall the govt also has automatic pay bumps for advanced degrees and there was a scandal about people getting mail-order advanced degrees.

Let’s make sure we don’t pass up an opportunity to insult teachers!

Regarding teaching: yes, many districts require a masters now. And, despite what the PP says, many of us have different degrees. My neighbor has Library Science, the teacher across the hall has a masters in English Literature (as do I). The science teachers upstairs have masters (and even 2 PhDs) in their content area: Chem, Physics, etc.

So, no… not all “silly” education degrees. But points for being insulting.

56% of HS teachers have a Masters or higher. A Masters in Education is by far the most popular masters degree.

Care to cite that? And I’m wondering if you bothered to look into that data. I’m guessing many secondary teachers have masters in their content area, which is consistent with what I’ve seen over 20 years of teaching. And those ed degrees? How many of them are admin-based, which is required to advance into administration?

And, to play around with this: if you look at the trends on this thread, it seems that teaching requires more education than most fields (even if they get “silly” education degrees).

Makes me wonder if we are paid enough…

[Anonymous]

Most people don't need grad degrees...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

PP. Thinking that all of the things you mentioned don’t happen at schools across the top 100 is extremely out of touch with reality. “We are not the only ones who met our mates there.” “Others are professors or have started companies.” It sounds like you’ve been out of school for 50 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

There's a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. I ended up at a third rate undergrad for financial reasons and had no problem getting into a top grad school and top law school. Leaving undergrad I had tons of awards, glowing recommendations, and perfect grades. I don't know that my application would have been as stellar from a more competitive school.

How many other kids from your undergrad were at your top law school with you? How many of your law school classmates graduated from the undergrad of your law school?

Congrats to PP for threading the needle and getting into top law school the harder way. We have a very close relative at Yale law. They went to a different ivy for undergraduate. Over half of the YL entering class each year is from the same 20 or so elite undergrads. Most of the rest are from T25-40 types/6-15 ranked LACs. There are almost no students from colleges below the top100 and these students are either hooked demographics or truly genius.

Yale lists the 86 undergrad institutions that are represented at Yale Law School on their website. You'll see lots of non-prestigious schools listed, from Northern Arizona University to Florida International University to Southern Utah University.

https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profiles-statistics

Yale used to list the number of Yale law students attending by their undergrad school. The top 20 schools comprised 65% of the entire law school. Yale undergrad was 20% of Yale law school.

Then there was one kid from all the remaining schools...though they listed more than 86 in total.

ear after year, Yale Law School is ranked #1 in the US. (Harvard Law & Stanford Law School complete the top 3, followed by Chicago, Columbia, & NYU as the top 6 law schools in the USA.)

In 2019 (last year they tracked these stats..600 law students in total)), the undergraduate schools with the highest number of alumni then at Yale Law School were:

Yale--90 students enrolled in YLS
Harvard--59
Columbia--34
Princeton--31

Stanford--22
Dartmouth--21
Cornell--19
U Chicago--18
Brown--17
U Penn-16

UC-Berkeley--13
Georgetown--13
Duke--10

Northwestern--8
U Michigan--8
USC--8
U Virginia--7
Johns Hopkins--7

Among LACs:

Amherst--6
Swarthmore--6
Bowdoin--5
Barnard--4
Pomona--4
Wellesley--4
Williams--4

Looks like a good Top 25 list for humanities majors planning on attending law school.

You listed UVA when no one else did - Booster! Sorry - wanted to be that guy once.

UVA law is currently ranked #4 presently by USNWP - it's either tied or one above Harvard .... doesn't really matter, just sayin....

It was a joke. When some one remotely mentions UVA then there's always a dude that says "Booster".

I'm proud of GMU being #28 and why does this matter? GMU is part-time and gives you a good option if you are working. I like UDC for making law school affordable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

I think you are ignoring the boost that comes with being a big fish in a small pond. I was at a no name school (despite getting into a T10 but needing a full ride to afford college) and had weekly mentoring sessions with the University President and Provost. I was mentored by the Chair of the Board of Trustees. I had all the support of the Honors Program director, who could open any door on campus to me with a phone call. Lots and lots of support.

Meanwhile as a PhD graduate student at a T10 I saw undergrads who were fighting to get a spot in the lab they wanted, getting zero attention from the PI if they did get a spot, and struggling with trying to stand out academically from a really talented crowd.

An ambitious kid can succeed from wherever they attend, but it isn't necessarily all sunshine and roses if you go to a T10, nor hopeless if you're at a regional Tier 4.

+1. If you are a strong, academically-inclined student at an average school there will be tons of unique opportunities available to you. We had weekly lunches with the dean of our college. One kid was on the Board of Trustees as the Student Trustee. The best professors there were incredibly available because they were thrilled to meet with the top students. And this was at a Big Ten school.

It’s so weird when people seem to think that if you aren’t at a T20, then you are automatically a nursing major in 500 person classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

There's a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. I ended up at a third rate undergrad for financial reasons and had no problem getting into a top grad school and top law school. Leaving undergrad I had tons of awards, glowing recommendations, and perfect grades. I don't know that my application would have been as stellar from a more competitive school.

How many other kids from your undergrad were at your top law school with you? How many of your law school classmates graduated from the undergrad of your law school?

Congrats to PP for threading the needle and getting into top law school the harder way. We have a very close relative at Yale law. They went to a different ivy for undergraduate. Over half of the YL entering class each year is from the same 20 or so elite undergrads. Most of the rest are from T25-40 types/6-15 ranked LACs. There are almost no students from colleges below the top100 and these students are either hooked demographics or truly genius.

Yale lists the 86 undergrad institutions that are represented at Yale Law School on their website. You'll see lots of non-prestigious schools listed, from Northern Arizona University to Florida International University to Southern Utah University.

https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profiles-statistics

Yale used to list the number of Yale law students attending by their undergrad school. The top 20 schools comprised 65% of the entire law school. Yale undergrad was 20% of Yale law school.

Then there was one kid from all the remaining schools...though they listed more than 86 in total.

If you want to talk other measures of prestige, I clerked for a Federal Court of Appeal and the clerks in my chambers (including the groups before and after me) had undergrad degrees from Florida International University, Washington University in St Louis, Clarkson University, University of Miami, Northwestern, Princeton, University of Houston, Vanderbilt, University of Washington, and JMU. Lots of diversity.

But they all attended a top law school, no?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

There's a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. I ended up at a third rate undergrad for financial reasons and had no problem getting into a top grad school and top law school. Leaving undergrad I had tons of awards, glowing recommendations, and perfect grades. I don't know that my application would have been as stellar from a more competitive school.

How many other kids from your undergrad were at your top law school with you? How many of your law school classmates graduated from the undergrad of your law school?

Congrats to PP for threading the needle and getting into top law school the harder way. We have a very close relative at Yale law. They went to a different ivy for undergraduate. Over half of the YL entering class each year is from the same 20 or so elite undergrads. Most of the rest are from T25-40 types/6-15 ranked LACs. There are almost no students from colleges below the top100 and these students are either hooked demographics or truly genius.

Yale lists the 86 undergrad institutions that are represented at Yale Law School on their website. You'll see lots of non-prestigious schools listed, from Northern Arizona University to Florida International University to Southern Utah University.

https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profiles-statistics

Yale used to list the number of Yale law students attending by their undergrad school. The top 20 schools comprised 65% of the entire law school. Yale undergrad was 20% of Yale law school.

Then there was one kid from all the remaining schools...though they listed more than 86 in total.

ear after year, Yale Law School is ranked #1 in the US. (Harvard Law & Stanford Law School complete the top 3, followed by Chicago, Columbia, & NYU as the top 6 law schools in the USA.)

In 2019 (last year they tracked these stats..600 law students in total)), the undergraduate schools with the highest number of alumni then at Yale Law School were:

Yale--90 students enrolled in YLS
Harvard--59
Columbia--34
Princeton--31

Stanford--22
Dartmouth--21
Cornell--19
U Chicago--18
Brown--17
U Penn-16

UC-Berkeley--13
Georgetown--13
Duke--10

Northwestern--8
U Michigan--8
USC--8
U Virginia--7
Johns Hopkins--7

Among LACs:

Amherst--6
Swarthmore--6
Bowdoin--5
Barnard--4
Pomona--4
Wellesley--4
Williams--4

Looks like a good Top 25 list for humanities majors planning on attending law school.

You listed UVA when no one else did - Booster! Sorry - wanted to be that guy once.

UVA law is currently ranked #4 presently by USNWP - it's either tied or one above Harvard .... doesn't really matter, just sayin....

It was a joke. When some one remotely mentions UVA then there's always a dude that says "Booster".

I'm proud of GMU being #28 and why does this matter? GMU is part-time and gives you a good option if you are working. I like UDC for making law school affordable.

It's called Scalia Law now and indeed is 28. My kid us applying to it because it's one of of the very few top law schools which give merit scholarships (UVA does too)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For law school, people here say your gpa matters along with LSAT. Go where you can get a 4.0 while adding geographic diversity.

[/quotKW

Law schools don't care about geographic diversity. only GPA and lsat because those stats are reported to rankings services

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Other than Ivy schools, why does it matter what 4 year you attend if most people need a graduate degree?

Also, if you don't go to grad school what benefit does a higher ranked college get you? Really curious because I feel like I am missing something?

Your terminal degree is what matters most but there are a few degrees that add value throughout your life. HYPSM will matter for a long time regardless of where you go to get your terminal degree, especially HMS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

There's a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. I ended up at a third rate undergrad for financial reasons and had no problem getting into a top grad school and top law school. Leaving undergrad I had tons of awards, glowing recommendations, and perfect grades. I don't know that my application would have been as stellar from a more competitive school.

How many other kids from your undergrad were at your top law school with you? How many of your law school classmates graduated from the undergrad of your law school?

Congrats to PP for threading the needle and getting into top law school the harder way. We have a very close relative at Yale law. They went to a different ivy for undergraduate. Over half of the YL entering class each year is from the same 20 or so elite undergrads. Most of the rest are from T25-40 types/6-15 ranked LACs. There are almost no students from colleges below the top100 and these students are either hooked demographics or truly genius.

Yale lists the 86 undergrad institutions that are represented at Yale Law School on their website. You'll see lots of non-prestigious schools listed, from Northern Arizona University to Florida International University to Southern Utah University.

https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profiles-statistics

That's 86 out of 204 students. 90 are from Yale, 30 odd from Harvard. Magically, that leaves your 84-odd figure because Yale, like Harvard, cherry picks the valedictorians from those other schools. That's how I got into both Harvard and Yale law schools. Both institutions brag these figures because to the unknowing it makes the schools appear less elitist. Fully one-third of my HLS class (560) were from Harvard undergrad ergo 185.

[Anonymous]

^ re the valedictorians, Harvard's 75th percentile has a 3.99 GPA OR BETTER! LSAT at the 75th percentile is a 176. That's all it cares about. My kid is not getting in. even though a law legacy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, your premise is wrong, therefore your question is moot.

lol. I see what you did there fellow lawyer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

There's a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. I ended up at a third rate undergrad for financial reasons and had no problem getting into a top grad school and top law school. Leaving undergrad I had tons of awards, glowing recommendations, and perfect grades. I don't know that my application would have been as stellar from a more competitive school.

How many other kids from your undergrad were at your top law school with you? How many of your law school classmates graduated from the undergrad of your law school?

Congrats to PP for threading the needle and getting into top law school the harder way. We have a very close relative at Yale law. They went to a different ivy for undergraduate. Over half of the YL entering class each year is from the same 20 or so elite undergrads. Most of the rest are from T25-40 types/6-15 ranked LACs. There are almost no students from colleges below the top100 and these students are either hooked demographics or truly genius.

So few people get into Yale law school, regardless. Basing your UG experience on hoping to attend one of the top 3 law schools is pretty short-sighted.

This plus being a lawyer pretty much sucks.
signed lawyer from top law school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Outside of law and medicine which jobs require a masters? I think there are far more jobs that Don’t require a masters than ones that do ?

Most nurses have a masters degree now, as do most public librarians and most teachers. Many people in all fields have an MBA. Even if the job doesn't "require" it, that is who you are competing with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Outside of law and medicine which jobs require a masters? I think there are far more jobs that Don’t require a masters than ones that do ?

Most nurses have a masters degree now, as do most public librarians and most teachers. Many people in all fields have an MBA. Even if the job doesn't "require" it, that is who you are competing with.

Some people in all fields have an MBA, but most don’t.

An MBA from a very small number of schools is worthwhile and the others aren’t worth the paper on which they are printed…which is the same for law school. Tons of underemployed lawyers from no name law schools with tons of debt and poor earnings.

Defaults on grad school loans are worse than undergrad because of so many useless grad degrees.