If most careers require grad school does where you get your 4 year degree really matter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Outside of law and medicine which jobs require a masters? I think there are far more jobs that Don’t require a masters than ones that do ?

Most nurses have a masters degree now, as do most public librarians and most teachers. Many people in all fields have an MBA. Even if the job doesn't "require" it, that is who you are competing with. [/quote

Only 20% of nurses have a masters or higher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

There's a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. I ended up at a third rate undergrad for financial reasons and had no problem getting into a top grad school and top law school. Leaving undergrad I had tons of awards, glowing recommendations, and perfect grades. I don't know that my application would have been as stellar from a more competitive school.

How many other kids from your undergrad were at your top law school with you? How many of your law school classmates graduated from the undergrad of your law school?

Congrats to PP for threading the needle and getting into top law school the harder way. We have a very close relative at Yale law. They went to a different ivy for undergraduate. Over half of the YL entering class each year is from the same 20 or so elite undergrads. Most of the rest are from T25-40 types/6-15 ranked LACs. There are almost no students from colleges below the top100 and these students are either hooked demographics or truly genius.

Yale lists the 86 undergrad institutions that are represented at Yale Law School on their website. You'll see lots of non-prestigious schools listed, from Northern Arizona University to Florida International University to Southern Utah University.

https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profiles-statistics

That's 86 out of 204 students. 90 are from Yale, 30 odd from Harvard. Magically, that leaves your 84-odd figure because Yale, like Harvard, cherry picks the valedictorians from those other schools. That's how I got into both Harvard and Yale law schools. Both institutions brag these figures because to the unknowing it makes the schools appear less elitist. Fully one-third of my HLS class (560) were from Harvard undergrad ergo 185.

THIS. Med school is similar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

There's a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. I ended up at a third rate undergrad for financial reasons and had no problem getting into a top grad school and top law school. Leaving undergrad I had tons of awards, glowing recommendations, and perfect grades. I don't know that my application would have been as stellar from a more competitive school.

How many other kids from your undergrad were at your top law school with you? How many of your law school classmates graduated from the undergrad of your law school?

Congrats to PP for threading the needle and getting into top law school the harder way. We have a very close relative at Yale law. They went to a different ivy for undergraduate. Over half of the YL entering class each year is from the same 20 or so elite undergrads. Most of the rest are from T25-40 types/6-15 ranked LACs. There are almost no students from colleges below the top100 and these students are either hooked demographics or truly genius.

Yale lists the 86 undergrad institutions that are represented at Yale Law School on their website. You'll see lots of non-prestigious schools listed, from Northern Arizona University to Florida International University to Southern Utah University.

https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profiles-statistics

Yale used to list the number of Yale law students attending by their undergrad school. The top 20 schools comprised 65% of the entire law school. Yale undergrad was 20% of Yale law school.

Then there was one kid from all the remaining schools...though they listed more than 86 in total.

ear after year, Yale Law School is ranked #1 in the US. (Harvard Law & Stanford Law School complete the top 3, followed by Chicago, Columbia, & NYU as the top 6 law schools in the USA.)

In 2019 (last year they tracked these stats..600 law students in total)), the undergraduate schools with the highest number of alumni then at Yale Law School were:

Yale--90 students enrolled in YLS
Harvard--59
Columbia--34
Princeton--31

Stanford--22
Dartmouth--21
Cornell--19
U Chicago--18
Brown--17
U Penn-16

UC-Berkeley--13
Georgetown--13
Duke--10

Northwestern--8
U Michigan--8
USC--8
U Virginia--7
Johns Hopkins--7

Among LACs:

Amherst--6
Swarthmore--6
Bowdoin--5
Barnard--4
Pomona--4
Wellesley--4
Williams--4

Looks like a good Top 25 list for humanities majors planning on attending law school.

The same schools show up on all the same lists as overrepresented at top law, top med, top careers, MBB, top phD.....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

I think you are ignoring the boost that comes with being a big fish in a small pond. I was at a no name school (despite getting into a T10 but needing a full ride to afford college) and had weekly mentoring sessions with the University President and Provost. I was mentored by the Chair of the Board of Trustees. I had all the support of the Honors Program director, who could open any door on campus to me with a phone call. Lots and lots of support.

Meanwhile as a PhD graduate student at a T10 I saw undergrads who were fighting to get a spot in the lab they wanted, getting zero attention from the PI if they did get a spot, and struggling with trying to stand out academically from a really talented crowd.

An ambitious kid can succeed from wherever they attend, but it isn't necessarily all sunshine and roses if you go to a T10, nor hopeless if you're at a regional Tier 4.

EVERY student who wants research at my kid's ivy gets it. Every one. 80% get paid research positions. MIT pays all of them, and also guarantees research. My junior has already had two different professors reach out to colleagues help get my student and other students summer positions. Those kinds of connections are commonplace there. Nothing like that happened at my state flagship 25 years ago, it was hard to stand out in classes with 500+ people. My spouse (Hopkins grad) reports it happened all the time there, and my work partner who is a Williams alum reports the same experience as my ivy kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Outside of law and medicine which jobs require a masters? I think there are far more jobs that Don’t require a masters than ones that do ?

wdym law and medicine masters? they require doctorates

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

PP. Thinking that all of the things you mentioned don’t happen at schools across the top 100 is extremely out of touch with reality. “We are not the only ones who met our mates there.” “Others are professors or have started companies.” It sounds like you’ve been out of school for 50 years.

AVERAGE GPA students at schools ranked 60-100 do not go to med law or top phD schools. Pull up any of them and look at the most common careers, pull up the med and law school matriculation data--it rare from these schools, less than 10% of grads. Top14 LAW school is even more rare. T14 is easily accessible to average GPA(3.8) students from an ivy/T10.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

I think you are ignoring the boost that comes with being a big fish in a small pond. I was at a no name school (despite getting into a T10 but needing a full ride to afford college) and had weekly mentoring sessions with the University President and Provost. I was mentored by the Chair of the Board of Trustees. I had all the support of the Honors Program director, who could open any door on campus to me with a phone call. Lots and lots of support.

Meanwhile as a PhD graduate student at a T10 I saw undergrads who were fighting to get a spot in the lab they wanted, getting zero attention from the PI if they did get a spot, and struggling with trying to stand out academically from a really talented crowd.

An ambitious kid can succeed from wherever they attend, but it isn't necessarily all sunshine and roses if you go to a T10, nor hopeless if you're at a regional Tier 4.

EVERY student who wants research at my kid's ivy gets it. Every one. 80% get paid research positions. MIT pays all of them, and also guarantees research. My junior has already had two different professors reach out to colleagues help get my student and other students summer positions. Those kinds of connections are commonplace there. Nothing like that happened at my state flagship 25 years ago, it was hard to stand out in classes with 500+ people. My spouse (Hopkins grad) reports it happened all the time there, and my work partner who is a Williams alum reports the same experience as my ivy kid.

I think you're comparing being a regular fish at a state school--no doubt that doesn't open a lot of doors. I'm talking about being something like the student body president and validictorian. It's a totally different experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

There's a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. I ended up at a third rate undergrad for financial reasons and had no problem getting into a top grad school and top law school. Leaving undergrad I had tons of awards, glowing recommendations, and perfect grades. I don't know that my application would have been as stellar from a more competitive school.

How many other kids from your undergrad were at your top law school with you? How many of your law school classmates graduated from the undergrad of your law school?

Congrats to PP for threading the needle and getting into top law school the harder way. We have a very close relative at Yale law. They went to a different ivy for undergraduate. Over half of the YL entering class each year is from the same 20 or so elite undergrads. Most of the rest are from T25-40 types/6-15 ranked LACs. There are almost no students from colleges below the top100 and these students are either hooked demographics or truly genius.

Yale lists the 86 undergrad institutions that are represented at Yale Law School on their website. You'll see lots of non-prestigious schools listed, from Northern Arizona University to Florida International University to Southern Utah University.

https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profiles-statistics

That's 86 out of 204 students. 90 are from Yale, 30 odd from Harvard. Magically, that leaves your 84-odd figure because Yale, like Harvard, cherry picks the valedictorians from those other schools. That's how I got into both Harvard and Yale law schools. Both institutions brag these figures because to the unknowing it makes the schools appear less elitist. Fully one-third of my HLS class (560) were from Harvard undergrad ergo 185.

THIS. Med school is similar.

But is it easier to be the #1 student from Northern Arizona University or one of the top 10 applicants from Duke?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

PP. Thinking that all of the things you mentioned don’t happen at schools across the top 100 is extremely out of touch with reality. “We are not the only ones who met our mates there.” “Others are professors or have started companies.” It sounds like you’ve been out of school for 50 years.

AVERAGE GPA students at schools ranked 60-100 do not go to med law or top phD schools. Pull up any of them and look at the most common careers, pull up the med and law school matriculation data--it rare from these schools, less than 10% of grads. Top14 LAW school is even more rare. T14 is easily accessible to average GPA(3.8) students from an ivy/T10.

We aren’t talking about average GPA students at schools ranked 60-100. We are talking about whether undergrad matters for grad school. The kind of kids who can get accepted to ivy+ are not average GPA students if they end up at 60-100, they will be top students there, surrounded by other top students in honors classes, Honors Colleges, etc. And they will get into the same grad schools because what matters is grades, test scores, recs. Even your 3.8 GPA average at Ivy example highlights this, as the average GPA at lower ranked schools is much lower. So you can be “average” at an Ivy but you can get into good schools in part because your grades are still high.

As I said earlier, all you are doing is positing a causal fallacy (cum hoc ergo propter hoc) because you see a correlation and have assumed causality, though there are obvious confounding factors (ivy+ kids are at ivy+ because they are good at the same things that also get one into grad school, like grades and test scores). It’s funny that you keep talking about how superior these schools and their education are yet you keep committing this extremely basic logical fallacy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

There's a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. I ended up at a third rate undergrad for financial reasons and had no problem getting into a top grad school and top law school. Leaving undergrad I had tons of awards, glowing recommendations, and perfect grades. I don't know that my application would have been as stellar from a more competitive school.

How many other kids from your undergrad were at your top law school with you? How many of your law school classmates graduated from the undergrad of your law school?

Congrats to PP for threading the needle and getting into top law school the harder way. We have a very close relative at Yale law. They went to a different ivy for undergraduate. Over half of the YL entering class each year is from the same 20 or so elite undergrads. Most of the rest are from T25-40 types/6-15 ranked LACs. There are almost no students from colleges below the top100 and these students are either hooked demographics or truly genius.

Yale lists the 86 undergrad institutions that are represented at Yale Law School on their website. You'll see lots of non-prestigious schools listed, from Northern Arizona University to Florida International University to Southern Utah University.

https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profiles-statistics

That's 86 out of 204 students. 90 are from Yale, 30 odd from Harvard. Magically, that leaves your 84-odd figure because Yale, like Harvard, cherry picks the valedictorians from those other schools. That's how I got into both Harvard and Yale law schools. Both institutions brag these figures because to the unknowing it makes the schools appear less elitist. Fully one-third of my HLS class (560) were from Harvard undergrad ergo 185.

THIS. Med school is similar.

But is it easier to be the #1 student from Northern Arizona University or one of the top 10 applicants from Duke?

One does not have to be in the top 10 applicants from Duke to have a decent shot at Yale: three dozen or so have a shot.
Most years the top student at NAU will not get in to ANY T5 law school and maybe the top 1-2 kids will get into a T14. Every year about three dozen get into a top5 law school from Duke, these are not the very top 3 dozen at Dukeas very top kids do many different things: it correlates to the top 20-25% gpawise based on oublished gpas. Furthermore many dozen, just over half of all law applicants get into a T14 Law from Duke: this group represents the top half of law applicants and spreads all the way to the middle of the graduating class as the law applicants are distributed fairly evenly across the entire class. Same with med applicants, though premed gpas are slightly lower and the applicants skew slightly lower gpa relative to the class. Average students at Duke with average GPAs get into T14 and T25 med schools with regularity. Same with ivies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

There's a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. I ended up at a third rate undergrad for financial reasons and had no problem getting into a top grad school and top law school. Leaving undergrad I had tons of awards, glowing recommendations, and perfect grades. I don't know that my application would have been as stellar from a more competitive school.

How many other kids from your undergrad were at your top law school with you? How many of your law school classmates graduated from the undergrad of your law school?

Congrats to PP for threading the needle and getting into top law school the harder way. We have a very close relative at Yale law. They went to a different ivy for undergraduate. Over half of the YL entering class each year is from the same 20 or so elite undergrads. Most of the rest are from T25-40 types/6-15 ranked LACs. There are almost no students from colleges below the top100 and these students are either hooked demographics or truly genius.

Yale lists the 86 undergrad institutions that are represented at Yale Law School on their website. You'll see lots of non-prestigious schools listed, from Northern Arizona University to Florida International University to Southern Utah University.

https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profiles-statistics

That's 86 out of 204 students. 90 are from Yale, 30 odd from Harvard. Magically, that leaves your 84-odd figure because Yale, like Harvard, cherry picks the valedictorians from those other schools. That's how I got into both Harvard and Yale law schools. Both institutions brag these figures because to the unknowing it makes the schools appear less elitist. Fully one-third of my HLS class (560) were from Harvard undergrad ergo 185.

THIS. Med school is similar.

I agree with all the above. I am a firm believer that good students will do well wherever they go if they work hard. I earned a PhD from the top school in my field. I went to undergrad at a midwest state flagship. I could have gone ivy, but my parents couldn't afford it. I graduated summa cum laude and had full ride merit scholarship. So many opportunities were thrown my way. When you graduate top of the class out of 5000 people, it felt like every grad school wanted me. When I got to grad school, most of the students were from SLAC or ivy or were top of their no name school like me. After graduating, I somehow managed to pass recruitment week at a top company and I work along side those who probably spent a half million+ more for an education I got for free. I went public all the way. My kids will go private all the way (its easier).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

PP. Thinking that all of the things you mentioned don’t happen at schools across the top 100 is extremely out of touch with reality. “We are not the only ones who met our mates there.” “Others are professors or have started companies.” It sounds like you’ve been out of school for 50 years.

AVERAGE GPA students at schools ranked 60-100 do not go to med law or top phD schools. Pull up any of them and look at the most common careers, pull up the med and law school matriculation data--it rare from these schools, less than 10% of grads. Top14 LAW school is even more rare. T14 is easily accessible to average GPA(3.8) students from an ivy/T10.

We aren’t talking about average GPA students at schools ranked 60-100. We are talking about whether undergrad matters for grad school. The kind of kids who can get accepted to ivy+ are not average GPA students if they end up at 60-100, they will be top students there, surrounded by other top students in honors classes, Honors Colleges, etc. And they will get into the same grad schools because what matters is grades, test scores, recs. Even your 3.8 GPA average at Ivy example highlights this, as the average GPA at lower ranked schools is much lower. So you can be “average” at an Ivy but you can get into good schools in part because your grades are still high.

As I said earlier, all you are doing is positing a causal fallacy (cum hoc ergo propter hoc) because you see a correlation and have assumed causality, though there are obvious confounding factors (ivy+ kids are at ivy+ because they are good at the same things that also get one into grad school, like grades and test scores). It’s funny that you keep talking about how superior these schools and their education are yet you keep committing this extremely basic logical fallacy.

Maybe because you are a one-trick pony with the causation vs correlation argument.

Explain why if there are so many Honors kids at these schools why they still aren’t represented all that well at top grad programs. How does that make any sense?

For example if you believe DCUM there are tons of kids attending Alabama for free as NMSF kids coming from UMC families. So, why isn’t Alabama represented better at these top law / MD programs…again, these aren’t hard scrabble kids from rural Alabama but UMC DMV kids taking the free ride. In theory, they have the same notions about needing grad school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

There's a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. I ended up at a third rate undergrad for financial reasons and had no problem getting into a top grad school and top law school. Leaving undergrad I had tons of awards, glowing recommendations, and perfect grades. I don't know that my application would have been as stellar from a more competitive school.

How many other kids from your undergrad were at your top law school with you? How many of your law school classmates graduated from the undergrad of your law school?

Congrats to PP for threading the needle and getting into top law school the harder way. We have a very close relative at Yale law. They went to a different ivy for undergraduate. Over half of the YL entering class each year is from the same 20 or so elite undergrads. Most of the rest are from T25-40 types/6-15 ranked LACs. There are almost no students from colleges below the top100 and these students are either hooked demographics or truly genius.

Yale lists the 86 undergrad institutions that are represented at Yale Law School on their website. You'll see lots of non-prestigious schools listed, from Northern Arizona University to Florida International University to Southern Utah University.

https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profiles-statistics

That's 86 out of 204 students. 90 are from Yale, 30 odd from Harvard. Magically, that leaves your 84-odd figure because Yale, like Harvard, cherry picks the valedictorians from those other schools. That's how I got into both Harvard and Yale law schools. Both institutions brag these figures because to the unknowing it makes the schools appear less elitist. Fully one-third of my HLS class (560) were from Harvard undergrad ergo 185.

THIS. Med school is similar.

But is it easier to be the #1 student from Northern Arizona University or one of the top 10 applicants from Duke?

One does not have to be in the top 10 applicants from Duke to have a decent shot at Yale: three dozen or so have a shot.
Most years the top student at NAU will not get in to ANY T5 law school and maybe the top 1-2 kids will get into a T14. Every year about three dozen get into a top5 law school from Duke, these are not the very top 3 dozen at Dukeas very top kids do many different things: it correlates to the top 20-25% gpawise based on oublished gpas. Furthermore many dozen, just over half of all law applicants get into a T14 Law from Duke: this group represents the top half of law applicants and spreads all the way to the middle of the graduating class as the law applicants are distributed fairly evenly across the entire class. Same with med applicants, though premed gpas are slightly lower and the applicants skew slightly lower gpa relative to the class. Average students at Duke with average GPAs get into T14 and T25 med schools with regularity. Same with ivies.

You don’t need a T14 law school unless your only desirable outcome is a partner at a white-shoe firm. There are many, many successful attorneys in BigLaw making a lot of money who did not attend a T5. And there are many paths other than BigLaw, anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Outside of law and medicine which jobs require a masters? I think there are far more jobs that Don’t require a masters than ones that do ?

Most nurses have a masters degree now, as do most public librarians and most teachers. Many people in all fields have an MBA. Even if the job doesn't "require" it, that is who you are competing with.

Some people in all fields have an MBA, but most don’t.

An MBA from a very small number of schools is worthwhile and the others aren’t worth the paper on which they are printed…which is the same for law school. Tons of underemployed lawyers from no name law schools with tons of debt and poor earnings.

Defaults on grad school loans are worse than undergrad because of so many useless grad degrees.

This is not the argument though. I think everybody agrees your graduate institution matters. The question is whether, if you are likely to go to grad school, the prestige of your undergrad matters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

There's a lot to be said for being the big fish in a small pond. I ended up at a third rate undergrad for financial reasons and had no problem getting into a top grad school and top law school. Leaving undergrad I had tons of awards, glowing recommendations, and perfect grades. I don't know that my application would have been as stellar from a more competitive school.

How many other kids from your undergrad were at your top law school with you? How many of your law school classmates graduated from the undergrad of your law school?

Congrats to PP for threading the needle and getting into top law school the harder way. We have a very close relative at Yale law. They went to a different ivy for undergraduate. Over half of the YL entering class each year is from the same 20 or so elite undergrads. Most of the rest are from T25-40 types/6-15 ranked LACs. There are almost no students from colleges below the top100 and these students are either hooked demographics or truly genius.

Yale lists the 86 undergrad institutions that are represented at Yale Law School on their website. You'll see lots of non-prestigious schools listed, from Northern Arizona University to Florida International University to Southern Utah University.

https://law.yale.edu/admissions/profiles-statistics

That's 86 out of 204 students. 90 are from Yale, 30 odd from Harvard. Magically, that leaves your 84-odd figure because Yale, like Harvard, cherry picks the valedictorians from those other schools. That's how I got into both Harvard and Yale law schools. Both institutions brag these figures because to the unknowing it makes the schools appear less elitist. Fully one-third of my HLS class (560) were from Harvard undergrad ergo 185.

THIS. Med school is similar.

But is it easier to be the #1 student from Northern Arizona University or one of the top 10 applicants from Duke?

One does not have to be in the top 10 applicants from Duke to have a decent shot at Yale: three dozen or so have a shot.
Most years the top student at NAU will not get in to ANY T5 law school and maybe the top 1-2 kids will get into a T14. Every year about three dozen get into a top5 law school from Duke, these are not the very top 3 dozen at Dukeas very top kids do many different things: it correlates to the top 20-25% gpawise based on oublished gpas. Furthermore many dozen, just over half of all law applicants get into a T14 Law from Duke: this group represents the top half of law applicants and spreads all the way to the middle of the graduating class as the law applicants are distributed fairly evenly across the entire class. Same with med applicants, though premed gpas are slightly lower and the applicants skew slightly lower gpa relative to the class. Average students at Duke with average GPAs get into T14 and T25 med schools with regularity. Same with ivies.

You don’t need a T14 law school unless your only desirable outcome is a partner at a white-shoe firm. There are many, many successful attorneys in BigLaw making a lot of money who did not attend a T5. And there are many paths other than BigLaw, anyway.

You went from T14 to T5…but you are actually incorrect if you stick with just T14. There is one law firm…maybe Skadden where you can search by attorneys by law school and the results are staggering…especially if you just look at associates.

There are far more indebted, underemployed lawyers in this country from garbage law schools with huge student loans than perhaps you want to care about.