If most careers require grad school does where you get your 4 year degree really matter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Other than Ivy schools, why does it matter what 4 year you attend if most people need a graduate degree?

Also, if you don't go to grad school what benefit does a higher ranked college get you? Really curious because I feel like I am missing something?

I went to a school in the Wash. U/Emory/Rice/Tufts class: great private research universities with little name recognition outside of their regions.

The classes there are probably similar to the classes at UVa. or UNC. I don’t think a typical broke donut hole student who can get in-state tuition at UVa. should take out a lot of loans to go to Harvard, let alone the WERT schools.

Possible reasons to go WERT:

- You have the money and want a cosier, more personal, more comfortable experience.

- You hate the idea of going to a college tailgate party but don’t want a school as small as Amherst.

- You get great aid at a WERT school and it’s cheaper for you, net of grants, than your other comparable options.

- There’s some program at the WERT school that you really like.

- The alternatives available aren’t as good for a very bright student who wants to hang out with other very bright students and drink knowledge from a firehose. George Mason or the University of Nebraska might have enough very bright students to be a good fit for that kind of student. A regional state school or a weak state flagship with an average SAT score of 1100 might not be a comfortable place for a very bright student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

I think you are ignoring the boost that comes with being a big fish in a small pond. I was at a no name school (despite getting into a T10 but needing a full ride to afford college) and had weekly mentoring sessions with the University President and Provost. I was mentored by the Chair of the Board of Trustees. I had all the support of the Honors Program director, who could open any door on campus to me with a phone call. Lots and lots of support.

Meanwhile as a PhD graduate student at a T10 I saw undergrads who were fighting to get a spot in the lab they wanted, getting zero attention from the PI if they did get a spot, and struggling with trying to stand out academically from a really talented crowd.

An ambitious kid can succeed from wherever they attend, but it isn't necessarily all sunshine and roses if you go to a T10, nor hopeless if you're at a regional Tier 4.

+1. If you are a strong, academically-inclined student at an average school there will be tons of unique opportunities available to you. We had weekly lunches with the dean of our college. One kid was on the Board of Trustees as the Student Trustee. The best professors there were incredibly available because they were thrilled to meet with the top students. And this was at a Big Ten school.

It’s so weird when people seem to think that if you aren’t at a T20, then you are automatically a nursing major in 500 person classes.

Why don't you share the name of the school and the program? It seems quite gatekeep-y to keep this secret. Everyone knows Ivies provide excellent development opportunities, but no one's going to know which T100s' honors programs are worth it and which aren't special until people share?

DP here. 2 reasons not to share:

Gatekeeping is one, as you said, especially for those of us with kids still in the process.

The other reason is any school we say will immediately be dismissed and $hat on by you, so there is no point to name it anyway.

I’m the person that question was directed at, and I have no problem saying. It was Indiana. Note that this thread has several different people making similar comments so I can’t speak for them.

But it doesn’t matter. These opportunities exist at any large, decent school. It shouldn’t come as a surprise. We all know great students with fantastic stats that don’t win the Ivy lottery, and they end up somewhere. They don’t magically become stupid when they do, and the schools don’t throw money at these kids just to forget about them once they walk through the doors. The schools have opportunities for them.

And though this forum is Ivy obsessed, lots of people live in parts of the country where they don’t want to go to school a thousand miles away, or they are full pay and can’t stomach 90k a year, and so they just go in-state or somewhere nearby. And those kids will get into the same grad schools, if that’s the route they want to go.

UIUC or Bloomington? And no, I don't think most publics allow students to have weally lunches with the Dean.

Bloomington. UIUC is Illinois.

But yeah, there are lots of opportunities like this for top kids. Ours was a student advisory group made up of business honors kids with the b-school dean. The heads of different student organizations (student government, interfraternity council, etc.) had a standing joint meeting with one of the Vice Provosts. The honors college had something with their dean but I didn’t attend so I don’t remember it well. I’m sure there was stuff I knew nothing about. There are layers to this; the higher up you go, the more access and opportunities are made available.

[Anonymous]

New poster here - I’d like to back up the notion that a good honors program opens many doors. One of the honors classes required at my kids school was a leadership class taught by the university president and provost. The provost wrote my kids rec for law school and they got into 6 top 14 programs, 3 with merit scholarships. That is just one of many perks they received. We are a donut hole family / we would not have qualified for any sort of aid, but also could not swing 700K for private undergrad and grad. Because we chose this path (honors/state undergrad to private/ivy/ topgrad) , both of my kids graduated with the credentials they needed for top graduate programs and we were able to fund everything in full so they graduated debt free. And fwiw they both absolutely loved their undergrad experiences.. I highly recommend it for those who don’t have millions of pre tax dollars to spend on multiple kids, and who want their kids to have the opportunity pursue a graduate degree of their choice in order to pursue their career path of choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

I think you are ignoring the boost that comes with being a big fish in a small pond. I was at a no name school (despite getting into a T10 but needing a full ride to afford college) and had weekly mentoring sessions with the University President and Provost. I was mentored by the Chair of the Board of Trustees. I had all the support of the Honors Program director, who could open any door on campus to me with a phone call. Lots and lots of support.

Meanwhile as a PhD graduate student at a T10 I saw undergrads who were fighting to get a spot in the lab they wanted, getting zero attention from the PI if they did get a spot, and struggling with trying to stand out academically from a really talented crowd.

An ambitious kid can succeed from wherever they attend, but it isn't necessarily all sunshine and roses if you go to a T10, nor hopeless if you're at a regional Tier 4.

This is not a benefit I've heard of coming from any university's full ride scholarship. It was also a gamble - you might not have gotten those opportunities, your Honors Program director might not have been able to open doors for you, your honors program might have instead been a tiresome checklist of requirements, as is typically the case. Did you have any strategy to ensure you would get these opportunities or did your program explicitly advise these opportunities? If not, you might as well be a lottery winner telling others to pay.

They most likely got those because of their work! Much easier to "get what you want" when you are the big fish in a small pond and top dog. They still have the same work ethic as those who get into T25 schools---but now they are fighting for those positions with only 5-10% of the students, not 95%. And most "tier down schools" want top students to shine and will do a lot to help that happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Other than Ivy schools, why does it matter what 4 year you attend if most people need a graduate degree?

Also, if you don't go to grad school what benefit does a higher ranked college get you? Really curious because I feel like I am missing something?

I went to a school in the Wash. U/Emory/Rice/Tufts class: great private research universities with little name recognition outside of their regions.

The classes there are probably similar to the classes at UVa. or UNC. I don’t think a typical broke donut hole student who can get in-state tuition at UVa. should take out a lot of loans to go to Harvard, let alone the WERT schools.

Possible reasons to go WERT:

- You have the money and want a cosier, more personal, more comfortable experience.

- You hate the idea of going to a college tailgate party but don’t want a school as small as Amherst.

- You get great aid at a WERT school and it’s cheaper for you, net of grants, than your other comparable options.

- There’s some program at the WERT school that you really like.

- The alternatives available aren’t as good for a very bright student who wants to hang out with other very bright students and drink knowledge from a firehose. George Mason or the University of Nebraska might have enough very bright students to be a good fit for that kind of student. A regional state school or a weak state flagship with an average SAT score of 1100 might not be a comfortable place for a very bright student.

I don't get the comment there is little name recognition. A school like Emory has a huge population from the Northeast...it's actually the #1 region for Emory. There is a huge NYC alumni group.

I would agree it is better known on the East Coast, but up and down the East Coast.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, not all schools are equal.

A top honors degree from third rate undergrad may not get you into prestigious graduate school, especially if their programs suck in your field of interest.

This. The undergraduate reputation/prestige correlates to the grad schools where the students go.
Example: the top 5 grad schools from NC state, UGA —good but not top flagships—are similar level schools.
The top 5 grad schools coming out of Duke? MIT, Duke, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. Ivies are similar: the top 5 is almost always including the ivy itself, MIT, Harvard, Stanford and another top school.
PhDs which are fully paid /funded including stipends of $45k or so are about half of grad programs coming out of top schools, whereas at non elite /nonflagships of the ones not going to professional school, less than 10% go to phD, the rest are masters. Most masters, outside of elite programs at ivies or others, are not funded at all. Guess who gets into the funded masters.
Careers after phD or masters is highly dependent on the prestiges of program. Getting into the most prestigious grad programs heavily correlates with attending a top20 private or a top15 LAC or a top15Public. Those 50 schools boost . The ivy/plus group of 12 schools give the biggest boost.
Undergrad matters.

All of this is just a correlation of smart, motivated students with academic success. Nothing in here is causal, especially not the undergraduate university attended.

DP
in part it is just that. however being in an environment where average middle of the pack kids go to top phDs, MD, JD is a much more motivating environment of peers than being in a school where very few are aiming for this type of future, and the "average" kid is going to be a social worker or teacher or nurse. My wife and I were motivated by the peers around us at our ivy/plus; we made lifelong friends and are not the only ones who met mates there. We went off to top JD and MD programs as did most of our peers. Others run national nonprofits now, or are professors, or have started companies. We sent and are sending our kids to similar colleges for that reason. They thrive on the challenge of that type of peer group.

I think you are ignoring the boost that comes with being a big fish in a small pond. I was at a no name school (despite getting into a T10 but needing a full ride to afford college) and had weekly mentoring sessions with the University President and Provost. I was mentored by the Chair of the Board of Trustees. I had all the support of the Honors Program director, who could open any door on campus to me with a phone call. Lots and lots of support.

Meanwhile as a PhD graduate student at a T10 I saw undergrads who were fighting to get a spot in the lab they wanted, getting zero attention from the PI if they did get a spot, and struggling with trying to stand out academically from a really talented crowd.

An ambitious kid can succeed from wherever they attend, but it isn't necessarily all sunshine and roses if you go to a T10, nor hopeless if you're at a regional Tier 4.

+1. If you are a strong, academically-inclined student at an average school there will be tons of unique opportunities available to you. We had weekly lunches with the dean of our college. One kid was on the Board of Trustees as the Student Trustee. The best professors there were incredibly available because they were thrilled to meet with the top students. And this was at a Big Ten school.

It’s so weird when people seem to think that if you aren’t at a T20, then you are automatically a nursing major in 500 person classes.

Why don't you share the name of the school and the program? It seems quite gatekeep-y to keep this secret. Everyone knows Ivies provide excellent development opportunities, but no one's going to know which T100s' honors programs are worth it and which aren't special until people share?

DP here. 2 reasons not to share:

Gatekeeping is one, as you said, especially for those of us with kids still in the process.

The other reason is any school we say will immediately be dismissed and $hat on by you, so there is no point to name it anyway.

I’m the person that question was directed at, and I have no problem saying. It was Indiana. Note that this thread has several different people making similar comments so I can’t speak for them.

But it doesn’t matter. These opportunities exist at any large, decent school. It shouldn’t come as a surprise. We all know great students with fantastic stats that don’t win the Ivy lottery, and they end up somewhere. They don’t magically become stupid when they do, and the schools don’t throw money at these kids just to forget about them once they walk through the doors. The schools have opportunities for them.

And though this forum is Ivy obsessed, lots of people live in parts of the country where they don’t want to go to school a thousand miles away, or they are full pay and can’t stomach 90k a year, and so they just go in-state or somewhere nearby. And those kids will get into the same grad schools, if that’s the route they want to go.

UIUC or Bloomington? And no, I don't think most publics allow students to have weally lunches with the Dean.

Bloomington. UIUC is Illinois.

But yeah, there are lots of opportunities like this for top kids. Ours was a student advisory group made up of business honors kids with the b-school dean. The heads of different student organizations (student government, interfraternity council, etc.) had a standing joint meeting with one of the Vice Provosts. The honors college had something with their dean but I didn’t attend so I don’t remember it well. I’m sure there was stuff I knew nothing about. There are layers to this; the higher up you go, the more access and opportunities are made available.

I assume most of these kids went off well positioned in the working world, and some small subset may pursue an MBA. Just highlighting why the premise of this thread is completely flawed.

[Anonymous]

I went to Yale for law school. There were a mix of undergrads there. The people who went to Ivy undergrad had substantively different EXPERIENCES than the people who went to state schools or less prestigious little schools, but we all ended up in the same place.

When I’m advising my kids, it will be about the experience of undergrad and what we can afford.

[Anonymous]

These posts are evergreens on a forum like this. It's wishful thinking, and frankly straight-up naive, to assume that going to a more prestigious grad school completely minimizes the undergrad experience. When you are at your separate college reunions, believe me, you are not "all the same". A prestigious undergrad is cachet that lasts a lifetime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:These posts are evergreens on a forum like this. It's wishful thinking, and frankly straight-up naive, to assume that going to a more prestigious grad school completely minimizes the undergrad experience. When you are at your separate college reunions, believe me, you are not "all the same". A prestigious undergrad is cachet that lasts a lifetime.

this made me laugh....but if it makes you feel better to believe this - dream on

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These posts are evergreens on a forum like this. It's wishful thinking, and frankly straight-up naive, to assume that going to a more prestigious grad school completely minimizes the undergrad experience. When you are at your separate college reunions, believe me, you are not "all the same". A prestigious undergrad is cachet that lasts a lifetime.

this made me laugh....but if it makes you feel better to believe this - dream on

Me too. To claim wishful thinking and then write something like “a prestigious undergrad is cachet that lasts a lifetime.” Hit the library, undergrad, you’ve got a degree to finish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Other than Ivy schools, why does it matter what 4 year you attend if most people need a graduate degree?

Also, if you don't go to grad school what benefit does a higher ranked college get you? Really curious because I feel like I am missing something?

I went to a school in the Wash. U/Emory/Rice/Tufts class: great private research universities with little name recognition outside of their regions.

The classes there are probably similar to the classes at UVa. or UNC. I don’t think a typical broke donut hole student who can get in-state tuition at UVa. should take out a lot of loans to go to Harvard, let alone the WERT schools.

Possible reasons to go WERT:

- You have the money and want a cosier, more personal, more comfortable experience.

- You hate the idea of going to a college tailgate party but don’t want a school as small as Amherst.

- You get great aid at a WERT school and it’s cheaper for you, net of grants, than your other comparable options.

- There’s some program at the WERT school that you really like.

- The alternatives available aren’t as good for a very bright student who wants to hang out with other very bright students and drink knowledge from a firehose. George Mason or the University of Nebraska might have enough very bright students to be a good fit for that kind of student. A regional state school or a weak state flagship with an average SAT score of 1100 might not be a comfortable place for a very bright student.

So you went to Tufts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:These posts are evergreens on a forum like this. It's wishful thinking, and frankly straight-up naive, to assume that going to a more prestigious grad school completely minimizes the undergrad experience. When you are at your separate college reunions, believe me, you are not "all the same". A prestigious undergrad is cachet that lasts a lifetime.

Truth. Like it or not. It is a long lasting advantage.

[Anonymous]

My kid is an undergrad with a niche stem major at a large UC - where the research opportunities and exposure to industry are amazing. But, to be respected in certain stem careers a PhD will be necessary (a lead scientist in bio tech, for example). After uni, my kid will probably target whichever doctoral programs have research programs that align with desired career path in targeted industry. For PhDs in niche areas of interest, most privates and Ivies are off the table. For studies in generic degree-programs, the Ivies are a top distinguishing factor for your career-path.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These posts are evergreens on a forum like this. It's wishful thinking, and frankly straight-up naive, to assume that going to a more prestigious grad school completely minimizes the undergrad experience. When you are at your separate college reunions, believe me, you are not "all the same". A prestigious undergrad is cachet that lasts a lifetime.

Truth. Like it or not. It is a long lasting advantage.

No, it really isn’t. But we all know a few people who attended a top school and simply cannot stop talking about it decades later, even though no one asks or cares. So this comment does not surprise me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These posts are evergreens on a forum like this. It's wishful thinking, and frankly straight-up naive, to assume that going to a more prestigious grad school completely minimizes the undergrad experience. When you are at your separate college reunions, believe me, you are not "all the same". A prestigious undergrad is cachet that lasts a lifetime.

Truth. Like it or not. It is a long lasting advantage.

No, it really isn’t. But we all know a few people who attended a top school and simply cannot stop talking about it decades later, even though no one asks or cares. So this comment does not surprise me.

Meh, there is a group of folks who get their hackles up whenever someone even mentions their elite undergrad, but won't ever shut up themselves about their State U and its football team and whatever obscure major in which their alma mater is number 1.