Gender dysphoria; what age?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If they're not old enough to spell "gender", they're not old enough to choose it.

And if you’re not old enough to spell love, can you not feel it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wore boy clothes and had a lot of masculine-coded hobbies, but my parents were so, so good at not commenting (good or bad) on my preferences. It was a non-issue to them that I wore boys’ clothes and eventually I grew out of it and into a personal style that makes me feel confident and pretty. Had my parents made a huge fuss over my gender and atypical preferences, I would have seriously questioned my gender. The best solution to gender dysphoria is allowing children the freedom to enjoy clothes and hobbies without requiring rigid gender labels. Age and maturity takes care of a lot of cases that might otherwise suffer if they make permanent decisions based on impermanent preferences.

Where do people come up with this idea that parents are like, "Whelp, Brian likes dolls. He must be a girl. Let's transgender him now, durf." Most parents do exactly what your parents did--wait it out and see what happens.

Also, you all are catastrophically confusing and conflating real dysphoria with liking "masculine-coded hobbies." It's disheartening no one even wants to try to learn.

+1

[Anonymous]

“I’m JuSt CuRioUs”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the 1990s and before, most children with significant dysphoria at a young age had it resolve at puberty, though mostly they turned out same-sex attracted.

Current model in the US is to affirm when young, and stop puberty from taking place. Most of Europe, where this was common, has reversed course and no longer prescribe puberty blockers.

^This. The U.S. is way behind the curve on evidence-based thinking on this. Much to the harm of our children, tragically.

What is the dominant scientific evidence -based info out there?

The Cass review might not be a bad place to start. Released today.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/

Various summaries:

Daily Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13292025/Campaigners-demand-cowboy-clinics-doling-powerful-puberty-blockers-trans-children-banned-wake-bombshell-report-ruled-gender-care-built-shaky-foundations.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13291703/Meet-doctors-doled-puberty-blockers-generation-vulnerable-children.html

Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/children-are-being-used-as-a-football-hilary-cass-on-her-review-of-gender-identity-services

BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-68770641

Did you actually read the Cass Review? The US has pretty much successfully addressed the main problem she outlines in the report...that there are not enough "hubs" to get to the right diagnosis.

In spite of the fever dreams of some people, we do not just willy nilly say "hey, yep, let's start you on puberty blockers." There is a long psychiatric process which the NHS does not have.

If you actually talked to parents and people who have been through this, you would know this.

NP. Not only have I read the Cass Review, I’ve also read the studies referenced in the Cass Review, read the studies relied upon by WPATH, including the original Dutch protocol studies. I read them as someone with a background in this kind of analysis.

I think it is extremely hard for parents who have gone down this path to face the truth of the enormous inadequacy of the studies and science behind the previously recommended treatments for gender dysphoria. This is likely to turn out to be a tremendous medical tragedy and scandal. I think it is terribly unfair how many of them were emotionally manipulated into experimental and unsupported treatments for their children. But all of that means that that group of people (parents and people who have gone through this) are probably the last group who can be objective about data and and the lack of data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the 1990s and before, most children with significant dysphoria at a young age had it resolve at puberty, though mostly they turned out same-sex attracted.

Current model in the US is to affirm when young, and stop puberty from taking place. Most of Europe, where this was common, has reversed course and no longer prescribe puberty blockers.

^This. The U.S. is way behind the curve on evidence-based thinking on this. Much to the harm of our children, tragically.

What is the dominant scientific evidence -based info out there?

The Cass review might not be a bad place to start. Released today.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/

Various summaries:

Daily Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13292025/Campaigners-demand-cowboy-clinics-doling-powerful-puberty-blockers-trans-children-banned-wake-bombshell-report-ruled-gender-care-built-shaky-foundations.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13291703/Meet-doctors-doled-puberty-blockers-generation-vulnerable-children.html

Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/children-are-being-used-as-a-football-hilary-cass-on-her-review-of-gender-identity-services

BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-68770641

Did you actually read the Cass Review? The US has pretty much successfully addressed the main problem she outlines in the report...that there are not enough "hubs" to get to the right diagnosis.

In spite of the fever dreams of some people, we do not just willy nilly say "hey, yep, let's start you on puberty blockers." There is a long psychiatric process which the NHS does not have.

If you actually talked to parents and people who have been through this, you would know this.

NP. Not only have I read the Cass Review, I’ve also read the studies referenced in the Cass Review, read the studies relied upon by WPATH, including the original Dutch protocol studies. I read them as someone with a background in this kind of analysis.

I think it is extremely hard for parents who have gone down this path to face the truth of the enormous inadequacy of the studies and science behind the previously recommended treatments for gender dysphoria. This is likely to turn out to be a tremendous medical tragedy and scandal. I think it is terribly unfair how many of them were emotionally manipulated into experimental and unsupported treatments for their children. But all of that means that that group of people (parents and people who have gone through this) are probably the last group who can be objective about data and and the lack of data.

Perfectly put.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My then 13 yo suffered gender dyphoria with no previous history. I researched and read everything I coukd find on the topic and concluded that being transgender is extremely rare and truly transgendered peopke show signs at a very young age (like 3). I had a gut feeling about my dc, that they were not transgender. I was correct. My child has ocd, which included identity and existential elements. With ERP and iCBT, my dc is doing great and the ocd is well managed. There is no gender dysphoria whatsoever. They are 17 now.

You are a good parent, who cared enough about your child to do the difficult research.

Your child is lucky to have you as their parent.

Far too many cases are misdiagnosed or misunderstood, and too many parents run right into the whole transgender phenomenon incorrectly. They might mean well, but it is a disaster for the poor kids, who are not actually transgender at all.

Thank you for your kind words. Dh and I were under pressure from my dcs therapist at the time, who believed that revelation was a breakthrough and that dc should be evaluated by a clinic known for hormone blockers at young ages, with no wait time and no reasonable criteria. It was a stressful, heartbreaking experience and dh and I still shudder thinking of it. I handled it by telling my dc we will sit with the idea for 6 months and then revisit the conversation. I artfully extricated dc from the incompetent therapist, who was sending links to various gender affirming/no questions groups and resources. Meanwhile, I was researching and stumbled upon gender dysphoric ocd and existential ocd. At the 6 month mark, dc was away from the therapist and had matured a bit. The dysphoria was still there, but less so, along with other, new ocd symptoms. We found an excellent therapist who used ERp and iCBT to help dc help themself. The pressure to use puberty blockers was crushing, but I never gave in. I had to act like I was cool with everything, but just wanted to wait a bit...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

No one is saying that. This is a straw man. PP are saying yes, personal experience reports are important, but not to the exclusion of science and medical evidence. It's not either/or; it's both/and.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

I think it's at least worth acknowledging, that once you've taken the position of pushing the medical model of care onto children in spite of its experimental nature, it's unlikely you'll ever go 'woops my bad'. Otherwise you're admitting you may have ruined children's lives, whether your own or otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

I think it's at least worth acknowledging, that once you've taken the position of pushing the medical model of care onto children in spite of its experimental nature, it's unlikely you'll ever go 'woops my bad'. Otherwise you're admitting you may have ruined children's lives, whether your own or otherwise.

If someone has had their life ruined because they detransition then do people that go through their full natal puberty then transition as an adult have their lives ruined also?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

No one is saying that. This is a straw man. PP are saying yes, personal experience reports are important, but not to the exclusion of science and medical evidence. It's not either/or; it's both/and.

Exactly. Nobody is discouraging sharing direct experiences. What is being added is a discussion of the medical evidence or lack thereof. Any reasonable discussion should be both/and, but with this particular medical condition, advocates for medicalized treatments often do not want any rigorous discussion of medical evidence and prefer to direct the conversation only to personal experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

No one is saying that. This is a straw man. PP are saying yes, personal experience reports are important, but not to the exclusion of science and medical evidence. It's not either/or; it's both/and.

Exactly. Nobody is discouraging sharing direct experiences. What is being added is a discussion of the medical evidence or lack thereof. Any reasonable discussion should be both/and, but with this particular medical condition, advocates for medicalized treatments often do not want any rigorous discussion of medical evidence and prefer to direct the conversation only to personal experience.

So in your view, when should a transgender person be allowed to access cross sex hormones therapy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

I think it's at least worth acknowledging, that once you've taken the position of pushing the medical model of care onto children in spite of its experimental nature, it's unlikely you'll ever go 'woops my bad'. Otherwise you're admitting you may have ruined children's lives, whether your own or otherwise.

If someone has had their life ruined because they detransition then do people that go through their full natal puberty then transition as an adult have their lives ruined also?

In what sense? Their lives are ruined because they went through puberty instead of not? If say, a trans woman was deprived hormone treatment until after puberty and their sole happiness in life was derived from how well they 'pass' as a conventionally beautiful woman, then yes their life was ruined from that perspective. If they ever cared about reproduction, experiencing orgasm, or avoiding some of the other side effects of hormone treatments the answer isn't as clear to me.