Gender dysphoria; what age?

[Anonymous]

Just to be clear, and I don't want to call out specific posters, but people keep using "dysmorphia" but that's an entirely different condition. In this context, we are talking about gender dysphoria.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a child therapist. I firmly believe 99% of modern trans children are due to parent pressure or family dysfunction. I believe transgenderism is a real DSM disorder but incredibly rare, and that this current trend is akin to a social contagion people will write dissertations about in 100 years.

I live and practice in an affluent liberal community and this is my experience.

Wut? Leave the science to the professionals.

I am a professional. My belief is based on my professional experience and I think will be seen in the data in the coming decades. Ive encountered many, many transgendered children in my practice and to a t have extremely dysfunctional family systems and/or parents pushing their own agenda. Yes true transgenderism is a real disorder but by and large that is not what is happening in American children in 2024.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

I think it's at least worth acknowledging, that once you've taken the position of pushing the medical model of care onto children in spite of its experimental nature, it's unlikely you'll ever go 'woops my bad'. Otherwise you're admitting you may have ruined children's lives, whether your own or otherwise.

If someone has had their life ruined because they detransition then do people that go through their full natal puberty then transition as an adult have their lives ruined also?

In what sense? Their lives are ruined because they went through puberty instead of not? If say, a trans woman was deprived hormone treatment until after puberty and their sole happiness in life was derived from how well they 'pass' as a conventionally beautiful woman, then yes their life was ruined from that perspective. If they ever cared about reproduction, experiencing orgasm, or avoiding some of the other side effects of hormone treatments the answer isn't as clear to me.

Who should define the criteria for that person?

when the person is a child, then the medical (and legal) profession decide whether the child can consent to such risks. I believe those risks were covered up and are now becoming better understood; and the relative lack of benefits as well.

Imagine someone deciding for you at 9 or 10 that you would never be able to have sex or children!!!

How many 9-10 year olds are getting bottom surgery?

puberty blockers then immediate transition to cross-sex hormones can stunt sexual and reproductive function. because those organs literally never develop under the right hormonal patterns. cross-sex hormones don’t actually turn you into the opposite sex!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pp, would be willing to share examples of how this manifested at 4? Was your child able to articulate that the issue was gender related?

By about 18 months, I could have told you that my child, who was AFAB, gravitated towards things that are stereotypically associated with boys. They wanted balls, and trucks, and dinosaurs, and to be moving every second of the day. There a marked difference between what he chose compared and what his close in age sister chose, and even a difference between what he chose and what his close in age male friends and cousins chose, because his male cousins were more likely to push the baby doll stroller, or pretend to cook than he was. By two this preference he was also expressing strong preferences in terms of wanting his hair short, and wanting to wear clothing from the boy's section. But at that age, there was dysphoria, because while he knew that he liked some things more than other things, or that he liked different things from his sister, he didn't have any sense that he wasn't supposed to like those things, or that those things were associated with being a boy or a girl.

When he started preschool at three that began to change. I regret not choosing his preschool more carefully, because he was definitely in an environment where he got the message that some things were more for boys or more for girls, and that's when we started to see more unhappiness. At school, he consistently chose things like the block corner, or the vehicles, over things like housekeeping. He consistently chose male playmates too. But sometimes little boys told him he couldn't play because they didn't want to play with girls, and that hurt. Or if a parent would have a party that was all boys, he would feel so excluded. Conversely by 4, if he was invited to a party he'd ask "Is Jack going?" as a way to make sure it wasn't all girls. If it was all girls, he'd insist that he didn't want to go. He also was very insistent on boys clothing, rejecting even gender neutral things. But, he still clearly identified as a girl, although by 5 or so he would say "I'm a girl who likes boy things." or "I'm a girl but I don't like girl things." and "I wish I was a boy so I could go to that party" or "I wish I was a boy so that Henry would let me play." I would say his dysphoria from 3 - 5 wasn't constant. He'd get very upset any time he felt like people were putting him a "girl" box. But when that wasn't happening, he would seem to forget about it.

In late elementary, he switched from saying "I'm a girl who likes boy things" and "I wish I was a boy so I could . . . " to "I wish I was a boy!" and "it's not fair that I'm not a boy". There was a lot of anger at not being a boy, and at knowing that his male friends were going to change in different ways than he would. But that didn't switch to "I think I am a boy" or "I want you to call me he/him" until 11. When he asked we immediately allowed him to start changing social markers, so he got a haircut that reads 100% boy. We changed his name, and his bathing suit, and what he wore for fancy occasions, from slacks and a gender neutral shirt/blouse to a suit. We also changed his school so he could be with people who had not known him as a girl. I would say that from 9 - 11 his dysphoria was constant, and now it's back to being intermittent, coming up when there is a situation that is challenging. He is definitely a happier kid at 13 than he was at 10, but 10 - 11 can be really rough for kids with female hormones. He's also in a better school for him now, and getting therapy. So, who knows the cause.

So far, we have not allowed puberty blockers.

I would also say that I agree with a lot of the Cass report. I think that it's really easy to see gender diverse kids solely through the lens of gender, and to lose sight of their development as a whole, and that kids need comprehensive care that looks at all aspects of their development together. I think that can be an issue in the states, although it sounds like it was a bigger issue in England because of how NHS structured care.

I also think that the problem of lack of evidence is a big one, although I know from another kid with a severe medical issue that people give medical treatments to children that haven't been studied through adulthood all the time. Because any new treatment given to children is going to be without evidence on adult outcomes, until the first kids receiving it grow up! So, to me the issue isn't so much that the evidence doesn't exist, it's been that there's been a hesitance to look for evidence, or develop research protocols because it's become such a political issue. I also think it's important to note that there's not a lot of evidence to support either early medical transition, or waiting for medical transition, so while people say "we shouldn't medically transition young kids due to lack of evidence", it's possible that in the end the evidence will show that we should transition them.

I would also say that I agree with this key finding from the Cass report

Cass wrote:

For most young people, a medical pathway will not be the best way to manage their gender-related distress. For those young people for whom a medical pathway is clinically indicated, it is not enough to provide this without also addressing wider mental health and/or psychosocially challenging problems.

But I'm not convinced my kid isn't one of those kids for whom a medical pathway might be clinically indicated. At this point, we have been diligent about looking for and addressing other developmental, mental health, and psychosocial challenges, but I am not sure if that's enough. So, our decision about puberty suppression may change in the future.

I am someone who has really dug into the studies/evidence and lack thereof, and this seems like a reasoned post to me. Thank you for sharing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

I think it's at least worth acknowledging, that once you've taken the position of pushing the medical model of care onto children in spite of its experimental nature, it's unlikely you'll ever go 'woops my bad'. Otherwise you're admitting you may have ruined children's lives, whether your own or otherwise.

If someone has had their life ruined because they detransition then do people that go through their full natal puberty then transition as an adult have their lives ruined also?

In what sense? Their lives are ruined because they went through puberty instead of not? If say, a trans woman was deprived hormone treatment until after puberty and their sole happiness in life was derived from how well they 'pass' as a conventionally beautiful woman, then yes their life was ruined from that perspective. If they ever cared about reproduction, experiencing orgasm, or avoiding some of the other side effects of hormone treatments the answer isn't as clear to me.

Who should define the criteria for that person?

when the person is a child, then the medical (and legal) profession decide whether the child can consent to such risks. I believe those risks were covered up and are now becoming better understood; and the relative lack of benefits as well.

Imagine someone deciding for you at 9 or 10 that you would never be able to have sex or children!!!

How many 9-10 year olds are getting bottom surgery?

puberty blockers then immediate transition to cross-sex hormones can stunt sexual and reproductive function. because those organs literally never develop under the right hormonal patterns. cross-sex hormones don’t actually turn you into the opposite sex!

But no one is transitioning 9 or 10 year olds to cross-sex hormones. Literally no one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

No one is saying that. This is a straw man. PP are saying yes, personal experience reports are important, but not to the exclusion of science and medical evidence. It's not either/or; it's both/and.

Exactly. Nobody is discouraging sharing direct experiences. What is being added is a discussion of the medical evidence or lack thereof. Any reasonable discussion should be both/and, but with this particular medical condition, advocates for medicalized treatments often do not want any rigorous discussion of medical evidence and prefer to direct the conversation only to personal experience.

So in your view, when should a transgender person be allowed to access cross sex hormones therapy?

I think that question is out of scope for this thread. In my opinion, the body of medical evidence thus far does not seem to indicate that use of medical intervention for gender dysphoria in children is effective medical treatment. The issue right now is the refusal of medical bodies to rigorously examine that evidence; in fact, the dereliction of medical bodies in the US on this particular medical issue is appalling. However, I don’t think my personal opinion matters as to what that medical treatment should be.

What I think is that medical professionals and organizations in the US need to do their jobs and make new recommendations based on a rigorous examination of medical evidence. This is happening in countries with socialized medicine where, to an extent, the profit-driven motives for recommending medicalized care are lessened. But that neutral and rigorous examination of evidence for treatment is not happening in the US, which is very unfortunate.

Nonetheless, my personal opinion as to age for medical treatment is and should be irrelevant.

The US will never be the UK in terms of healthcare. The states will never act like England did. Maryland for example since we are on DCUM is going the opposite direction with shield laws. We will have people (we probably already do) traveling from red states to get their children gender affirming care here. You can push for bans in the red states but it's very unlikely it will ever happen in blue states. Even if it does, you'll have people starting hormones as soon as they are 18 and an adult and some portion of them will detransition.

Most people in the US that do not want kids to transition medically say it's only for kids but what they actually want is for no one of any age to be allowed to which is why it is in fact relevant. If someone says, wait until you're 18 then when they're 18 they say wait until you're 26 then at 26 they say I don't want you to transition still then that is HIGHLY relevant because you're lying about your intentions.

This is a highly emotional response and inappropriate. Nothing about what I wrote suggested that I am advocating for bans, even for children; in fact, I do not support bans. (I do, however, support lifting malpractice caps in general.)

However, bans have arisen because of the unwillingness of the US medical community to police itself, to look critically at the medical evidence with respect to medicalized treatment for gender dysphoria, and to apply the need for research and evidence-based standards that are typically applied to medical conditions. States are reacting because the medical community is handling gender dysphoria very differently and with considerably less rigor than other medical conditions.

The opposite should be true. Given the ugly history of medical experimentation on vulnerable groups in this country, we should expect that medical treatment paths that are recommended for exceptionally vulnerable groups such as gender dysmorphic children should be supported with exceptionally rigorous evidence. But that is not what has happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a child therapist. I firmly believe 99% of modern trans children are due to parent pressure or family dysfunction. I believe transgenderism is a real DSM disorder but incredibly rare, and that this current trend is akin to a social contagion people will write dissertations about in 100 years.

I live and practice in an affluent liberal community and this is my experience.

Wut? Leave the science to the professionals.

I am a professional. My belief is based on my professional experience and I think will be seen in the data in the coming decades. Ive encountered many, many transgendered children in my practice and to a t have extremely dysfunctional family systems and/or parents pushing their own agenda. Yes true transgenderism is a real disorder but by and large that is not what is happening in American children in 2024.

You are in no position to make sweeping (and completely invalid) generalizations. Stay in your lane.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

I think it's at least worth acknowledging, that once you've taken the position of pushing the medical model of care onto children in spite of its experimental nature, it's unlikely you'll ever go 'woops my bad'. Otherwise you're admitting you may have ruined children's lives, whether your own or otherwise.

If someone has had their life ruined because they detransition then do people that go through their full natal puberty then transition as an adult have their lives ruined also?

In what sense? Their lives are ruined because they went through puberty instead of not? If say, a trans woman was deprived hormone treatment until after puberty and their sole happiness in life was derived from how well they 'pass' as a conventionally beautiful woman, then yes their life was ruined from that perspective. If they ever cared about reproduction, experiencing orgasm, or avoiding some of the other side effects of hormone treatments the answer isn't as clear to me.

Who should define the criteria for that person?

when the person is a child, then the medical (and legal) profession decide whether the child can consent to such risks. I believe those risks were covered up and are now becoming better understood; and the relative lack of benefits as well.

Imagine someone deciding for you at 9 or 10 that you would never be able to have sex or children!!!

How many 9-10 year olds are getting bottom surgery?

puberty blockers then immediate transition to cross-sex hormones can stunt sexual and reproductive function. because those organs literally never develop under the right hormonal patterns. cross-sex hormones don’t actually turn you into the opposite sex!

Why would you think they do?

Saying that puberty blockers will prohibit people from ever having children is a ridiculous, hysterical hyperbole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

I think it's at least worth acknowledging, that once you've taken the position of pushing the medical model of care onto children in spite of its experimental nature, it's unlikely you'll ever go 'woops my bad'. Otherwise you're admitting you may have ruined children's lives, whether your own or otherwise.

If someone has had their life ruined because they detransition then do people that go through their full natal puberty then transition as an adult have their lives ruined also?

In what sense? Their lives are ruined because they went through puberty instead of not? If say, a trans woman was deprived hormone treatment until after puberty and their sole happiness in life was derived from how well they 'pass' as a conventionally beautiful woman, then yes their life was ruined from that perspective. If they ever cared about reproduction, experiencing orgasm, or avoiding some of the other side effects of hormone treatments the answer isn't as clear to me.

Who should define the criteria for that person?

when the person is a child, then the medical (and legal) profession decide whether the child can consent to such risks. I believe those risks were covered up and are now becoming better understood; and the relative lack of benefits as well.

Imagine someone deciding for you at 9 or 10 that you would never be able to have sex or children!!!

How many 9-10 year olds are getting bottom surgery?

puberty blockers then immediate transition to cross-sex hormones can stunt sexual and reproductive function. because those organs literally never develop under the right hormonal patterns. cross-sex hormones don’t actually turn you into the opposite sex!

But no one is transitioning 9 or 10 year olds to cross-sex hormones. Literally no one.

Wow. The fact that you don’t understand this is disturbing. If you pause puberty at 10 then go straight to cross-sex hormones as a teen instead of your normal puberty, your sexual organs will not develop normally (because physiologically they depend on your natural hormones). That risks a loss of sexual and reproductive function. In addition while the child is on puberty blockers, their sex drive (which would normally start to come online) is suppressed, which means they cannot develop normal romantic relationships that can lead to a more mature and complete understanding of their sexual and gender identity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

I think it's at least worth acknowledging, that once you've taken the position of pushing the medical model of care onto children in spite of its experimental nature, it's unlikely you'll ever go 'woops my bad'. Otherwise you're admitting you may have ruined children's lives, whether your own or otherwise.

If someone has had their life ruined because they detransition then do people that go through their full natal puberty then transition as an adult have their lives ruined also?

In what sense? Their lives are ruined because they went through puberty instead of not? If say, a trans woman was deprived hormone treatment until after puberty and their sole happiness in life was derived from how well they 'pass' as a conventionally beautiful woman, then yes their life was ruined from that perspective. If they ever cared about reproduction, experiencing orgasm, or avoiding some of the other side effects of hormone treatments the answer isn't as clear to me.

Who should define the criteria for that person?

when the person is a child, then the medical (and legal) profession decide whether the child can consent to such risks. I believe those risks were covered up and are now becoming better understood; and the relative lack of benefits as well.

Imagine someone deciding for you at 9 or 10 that you would never be able to have sex or children!!!

How many 9-10 year olds are getting bottom surgery?

puberty blockers then immediate transition to cross-sex hormones can stunt sexual and reproductive function. because those organs literally never develop under the right hormonal patterns. cross-sex hormones don’t actually turn you into the opposite sex!

Why would you think they do?

Saying that puberty blockers will prohibit people from ever having children is a ridiculous, hysterical hyperbole.

It’s not at all and it’s disturbing that you don’t know that. The risk of infertility is very well known when a child goes from puberty blockers to cross-sex hormones- which of course the vast majority do once they start blockers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

I think it's at least worth acknowledging, that once you've taken the position of pushing the medical model of care onto children in spite of its experimental nature, it's unlikely you'll ever go 'woops my bad'. Otherwise you're admitting you may have ruined children's lives, whether your own or otherwise.

If someone has had their life ruined because they detransition then do people that go through their full natal puberty then transition as an adult have their lives ruined also?

In what sense? Their lives are ruined because they went through puberty instead of not? If say, a trans woman was deprived hormone treatment until after puberty and their sole happiness in life was derived from how well they 'pass' as a conventionally beautiful woman, then yes their life was ruined from that perspective. If they ever cared about reproduction, experiencing orgasm, or avoiding some of the other side effects of hormone treatments the answer isn't as clear to me.

Who should define the criteria for that person?

when the person is a child, then the medical (and legal) profession decide whether the child can consent to such risks. I believe those risks were covered up and are now becoming better understood; and the relative lack of benefits as well.

Imagine someone deciding for you at 9 or 10 that you would never be able to have sex or children!!!

How many 9-10 year olds are getting bottom surgery?

puberty blockers then immediate transition to cross-sex hormones can stunt sexual and reproductive function. because those organs literally never develop under the right hormonal patterns. cross-sex hormones don’t actually turn you into the opposite sex!

But no one is transitioning 9 or 10 year olds to cross-sex hormones. Literally no one.

Wow. The fact that you don’t understand this is disturbing. If you pause puberty at 10 then go straight to cross-sex hormones as a teen instead of your normal puberty, your sexual organs will not develop normally (because physiologically they depend on your natural hormones). That risks a loss of sexual and reproductive function. In addition while the child is on puberty blockers, their sex drive (which would normally start to come online) is suppressed, which means they cannot develop normal romantic relationships that can lead to a more mature and complete understanding of their sexual and gender identity.

The fact that you don't understand is that treating a 9 or 10 year old with puberty blockers doesn't automatically lead to cross sex hormones. So, no one is deciding to put a 9 or 10 year old on cross sex hormones, and even if what you say above isn't exaggerated at all, what you wrote originally

Idiot spewing hyperbolic nonsense wrote:

Imagine someone deciding for you at 9 or 10 that you would never be able to have sex or children!!!

is irrelevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

I think it's at least worth acknowledging, that once you've taken the position of pushing the medical model of care onto children in spite of its experimental nature, it's unlikely you'll ever go 'woops my bad'. Otherwise you're admitting you may have ruined children's lives, whether your own or otherwise.

If someone has had their life ruined because they detransition then do people that go through their full natal puberty then transition as an adult have their lives ruined also?

In what sense? Their lives are ruined because they went through puberty instead of not? If say, a trans woman was deprived hormone treatment until after puberty and their sole happiness in life was derived from how well they 'pass' as a conventionally beautiful woman, then yes their life was ruined from that perspective. If they ever cared about reproduction, experiencing orgasm, or avoiding some of the other side effects of hormone treatments the answer isn't as clear to me.

Who should define the criteria for that person?

when the person is a child, then the medical (and legal) profession decide whether the child can consent to such risks. I believe those risks were covered up and are now becoming better understood; and the relative lack of benefits as well.

Imagine someone deciding for you at 9 or 10 that you would never be able to have sex or children!!!

How many 9-10 year olds are getting bottom surgery?

puberty blockers then immediate transition to cross-sex hormones can stunt sexual and reproductive function. because those organs literally never develop under the right hormonal patterns. cross-sex hormones don’t actually turn you into the opposite sex!

But no one is transitioning 9 or 10 year olds to cross-sex hormones. Literally no one.

Wow. The fact that you don’t understand this is disturbing. If you pause puberty at 10 then go straight to cross-sex hormones as a teen instead of your normal puberty, your sexual organs will not develop normally (because physiologically they depend on your natural hormones). That risks a loss of sexual and reproductive function. In addition while the child is on puberty blockers, their sex drive (which would normally start to come online) is suppressed, which means they cannot develop normal romantic relationships that can lead to a more mature and complete understanding of their sexual and gender identity.

The fact that you don't understand is that treating a 9 or 10 year old with puberty blockers doesn't automatically lead to cross sex hormones. So, no one is deciding to put a 9 or 10 year old on cross sex hormones, and even if what you say above isn't exaggerated at all, what you wrote originally

Idiot spewing hyperbolic nonsense wrote:

Imagine someone deciding for you at 9 or 10 that you would never be able to have sex or children!!!

is irrelevant.

The fact is most kids who are started on puberty blockers go on to cross sex hormones.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

I think it's at least worth acknowledging, that once you've taken the position of pushing the medical model of care onto children in spite of its experimental nature, it's unlikely you'll ever go 'woops my bad'. Otherwise you're admitting you may have ruined children's lives, whether your own or otherwise.

If someone has had their life ruined because they detransition then do people that go through their full natal puberty then transition as an adult have their lives ruined also?

In what sense? Their lives are ruined because they went through puberty instead of not? If say, a trans woman was deprived hormone treatment until after puberty and their sole happiness in life was derived from how well they 'pass' as a conventionally beautiful woman, then yes their life was ruined from that perspective. If they ever cared about reproduction, experiencing orgasm, or avoiding some of the other side effects of hormone treatments the answer isn't as clear to me.

Who should define the criteria for that person?

when the person is a child, then the medical (and legal) profession decide whether the child can consent to such risks. I believe those risks were covered up and are now becoming better understood; and the relative lack of benefits as well.

Imagine someone deciding for you at 9 or 10 that you would never be able to have sex or children!!!

How many 9-10 year olds are getting bottom surgery?

puberty blockers then immediate transition to cross-sex hormones can stunt sexual and reproductive function. because those organs literally never develop under the right hormonal patterns. cross-sex hormones don’t actually turn you into the opposite sex!

But no one is transitioning 9 or 10 year olds to cross-sex hormones. Literally no one.

Wow. The fact that you don’t understand this is disturbing. If you pause puberty at 10 then go straight to cross-sex hormones as a teen instead of your normal puberty, your sexual organs will not develop normally (because physiologically they depend on your natural hormones). That risks a loss of sexual and reproductive function. In addition while the child is on puberty blockers, their sex drive (which would normally start to come online) is suppressed, which means they cannot develop normal romantic relationships that can lead to a more mature and complete understanding of their sexual and gender identity.

The fact that you don't understand is that treating a 9 or 10 year old with puberty blockers doesn't automatically lead to cross sex hormones. So, no one is deciding to put a 9 or 10 year old on cross sex hormones, and even if what you say above isn't exaggerated at all, what you wrote originally

Idiot spewing hyperbolic nonsense wrote:

Imagine someone deciding for you at 9 or 10 that you would never be able to have sex or children!!!

is irrelevant.

The fact is most kids who are started on puberty blockers go on to cross sex hormones.

Most kids who are given bikes when they are little go on to drive cars. That doesn't mean that screaming about how someone giving their child a bike is deciding a 3 year old can drive would make any sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Definitely not my kid. A friend...and I am extremely skeptical. Hence this post to gather some anecdata.

Seems like 3 is too young for the concept of gender to be understood. Hence emphatically expressing one is one or the other gender definitively seems outlandish this young. I can see and understand other stories about a kid feeling uncomfortable in their body, etc

It's remarkable how few of the commenters here are parents who have direct experience relevant to your question. I think you're at risk of taking away the wrong takeaway here.

Parents with direct experience provide valuable perspectives but are also very invested in the decisions they made.

And yet these are the perspectives the OP asked for.

Some of you just can't be quiet even when that is specifically requested. It's notable and seems ideological.

One of the notable aspects of gender ideology and specifically treatment for a medical condition such as gender dysphoria is that personal experience elevated far above scientific evidence (or lack thereof). It’s hard to think of other medical conditions where hard looks at available evidence are so universally discouraged. OP did indeed ask about direct experience, but in nearly any other medical context, a sober discourse about the actual evidence would typically be welcome, not frantically discouraged.

The ironic thing here is that the you say this but then the discouragement is going the opposite way of the way you claim. You (or someone else here) is claiming that people discussing their first hand experience should be discouraged and only those that don't have first hand experience should be discussing other people's gender dysphoria.

I think it's at least worth acknowledging, that once you've taken the position of pushing the medical model of care onto children in spite of its experimental nature, it's unlikely you'll ever go 'woops my bad'. Otherwise you're admitting you may have ruined children's lives, whether your own or otherwise.

If someone has had their life ruined because they detransition then do people that go through their full natal puberty then transition as an adult have their lives ruined also?

In what sense? Their lives are ruined because they went through puberty instead of not? If say, a trans woman was deprived hormone treatment until after puberty and their sole happiness in life was derived from how well they 'pass' as a conventionally beautiful woman, then yes their life was ruined from that perspective. If they ever cared about reproduction, experiencing orgasm, or avoiding some of the other side effects of hormone treatments the answer isn't as clear to me.

Who should define the criteria for that person?

when the person is a child, then the medical (and legal) profession decide whether the child can consent to such risks. I believe those risks were covered up and are now becoming better understood; and the relative lack of benefits as well.

Imagine someone deciding for you at 9 or 10 that you would never be able to have sex or children!!!

How many 9-10 year olds are getting bottom surgery?

puberty blockers then immediate transition to cross-sex hormones can stunt sexual and reproductive function. because those organs literally never develop under the right hormonal patterns. cross-sex hormones don’t actually turn you into the opposite sex!

But no one is transitioning 9 or 10 year olds to cross-sex hormones. Literally no one.

Wow. The fact that you don’t understand this is disturbing. If you pause puberty at 10 then go straight to cross-sex hormones as a teen instead of your normal puberty, your sexual organs will not develop normally (because physiologically they depend on your natural hormones). That risks a loss of sexual and reproductive function. In addition while the child is on puberty blockers, their sex drive (which would normally start to come online) is suppressed, which means they cannot develop normal romantic relationships that can lead to a more mature and complete understanding of their sexual and gender identity.

The fact that you don't understand is that treating a 9 or 10 year old with puberty blockers doesn't automatically lead to cross sex hormones. So, no one is deciding to put a 9 or 10 year old on cross sex hormones, and even if what you say above isn't exaggerated at all, what you wrote originally

Idiot spewing hyperbolic nonsense wrote:

Imagine someone deciding for you at 9 or 10 that you would never be able to have sex or children!!!

is irrelevant.

The fact is most kids who are started on puberty blockers go on to cross sex hormones.

Most kids who are given bikes when they are little go on to drive cars. That doesn't mean that screaming about how someone giving their child a bike is deciding a 3 year old can drive would make any sense.

I believe you are the one not making any sense.

[jsteele]

It would be nice if those responding could address the question that is asked, but that seems impossible on any topic dealing with transgender issues. If there is ever a thread asking your opinion about transgender people, be sure to join in. But when threads don't ask for your opinion, please keep it to yourself.