Question about Messianic Judaism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought Messianic Judaism was a front put up by evangelical Christians to convert Jews.

I would prefer either traditional Judaism or traditional Christianity over this purported middle road.

It is. Which is deeply offensive. Every one of those Jews for Jesus gives a middle finger to our (sometimes shared) ancestors who resisted conversion to keep Judaism alive in an unbroken chain across millenia.

And here we get to the nub of the matter. Xenophobia.

Actually it’s anti-semitism, but you know that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought Messianic Judaism was a front put up by evangelical Christians to convert Jews.

I would prefer either traditional Judaism or traditional Christianity over this purported middle road.

It is. Which is deeply offensive. Every one of those Jews for Jesus gives a middle finger to our (sometimes shared) ancestors who resisted conversion to keep Judaism alive in an unbroken chain across millenia.

And here we get to the nub of the matter. Xenophobia.

No, the nub of the matter is that this movement explicitly breaks with Jewish theology to embrace Christian beliefs, and then tries to wrap itself in Jewish customs and appearances to hand-wave past that. But sure, go ahead and declare that Jews are the real problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Good for Jesus and his disciples, but if they appeared tomorrow and started telling everyone there that they, in fact, are the ones who understand the real meaning of Judaism and the rest of us are wrong, we'd probably think they were pretty annoying, too. I know that's part of what they did in their own time, but the last couple thousand years since then — including many attempts by their later disciples at forced conversion of Jews or of slaughtering us because we don't accept Jesus as our savior — have sort of changed the context with which that message would land now.

I take it from your question and your reference to what Jesus did here that you're not Jewish, but no, there is no Jewish pope or a centralized structure with bishops. There are rabbinical courts, though, called beit dins in Hebrew, that specifically deal with questions like whether someone is or isn't Jewish (i.e., they perform conversions), along with other matters like divorces. In more observant communities than my own, they also handle disputes between members.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

This is by definition a Jewish movement.
They are not very open to Christian’s. The movement might include some Christians, but mostly Jewish. By Jewish I mean persons who have Jewish ancestry, bloodlines

It has very little to do with mainstream Christianity

It has absolutely nothing to do with mainstream Judaism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought Messianic Judaism was a front put up by evangelical Christians to convert Jews.

I would prefer either traditional Judaism or traditional Christianity over this purported middle road.

It is. Which is deeply offensive. Every one of those Jews for Jesus gives a middle finger to our (sometimes shared) ancestors who resisted conversion to keep Judaism alive in an unbroken chain across millenia.

But doesn’t the unbroken chain of millennia mean that today’s generation has a right to choose . Or do you believe that every one of your ancestors was devout and happy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought Messianic Judaism was a front put up by evangelical Christians to convert Jews.

I would prefer either traditional Judaism or traditional Christianity over this purported middle road.

It is. Which is deeply offensive. Every one of those Jews for Jesus gives a middle finger to our (sometimes shared) ancestors who resisted conversion to keep Judaism alive in an unbroken chain across millenia.

And here we get to the nub of the matter. Xenophobia.

What's xenophobic about it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jews hate them because they Christians who are more observant Jews than non-Christian Jews are.

Actually, Jews don't like them because Jews are their targets for proselytizing. They want to convert Jews to Christianity. Not sure where you got the idea that Jews hate them because they are more observant? They aren't even Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

This is by definition a Jewish movement.
They are not very open to Christian’s. The movement might include some Christians, but mostly Jewish. By Jewish I mean persons who have Jewish ancestry, bloodlines

It has very little to do with mainstream Christianity

It has absolutely nothing to do with mainstream Judaism.

Agree! Anyone who says this is Judaism, isn't Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought Messianic Judaism was a front put up by evangelical Christians to convert Jews.

I would prefer either traditional Judaism or traditional Christianity over this purported middle road.

It is. Which is deeply offensive. Every one of those Jews for Jesus gives a middle finger to our (sometimes shared) ancestors who resisted conversion to keep Judaism alive in an unbroken chain across millenia.

And here we get to the nub of the matter. Xenophobia.

Actually it’s anti-semitism, but you know that.

Actually everything is anti-semitism. Even your quote right above, where you oppose Jews for Jesus, because that must be anti-semitism too, apparently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

People who believe Jesus was the Messiah and that his sacrifice leads to salvation are Christian. Even if they like to wear tallitot and kippot. This is not a difficult question, nor is it somehow unfair for Jews to draw this line.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought Messianic Judaism was a front put up by evangelical Christians to convert Jews.

I would prefer either traditional Judaism or traditional Christianity over this purported middle road.

It is. Which is deeply offensive. Every one of those Jews for Jesus gives a middle finger to our (sometimes shared) ancestors who resisted conversion to keep Judaism alive in an unbroken chain across millenia.

And here we get to the nub of the matter. Xenophobia.

Actually it’s anti-semitism, but you know that.

Actually everything is anti-semitism. Even your quote right above, where you oppose Jews for Jesus, because that must be anti-semitism too, apparently.

The part that reads (to me) like antisemitism is the part where Jews are accused of xenophobia because we don't want Christians pretending they're Jewish, and that somehow that's the "nub" of the issue with Jews for Jesus. If a synagogue declared tomorrow that it's the real Catholic Church and their rabbi was the pope, would Catholics who objected to that be the problem? Or would the synagogue doing it be?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

This is by definition a Jewish movement.
They are not very open to Christian’s. The movement might include some Christians, but mostly Jewish. By Jewish I mean persons who have Jewish ancestry, bloodlines

It has very little to do with mainstream Christianity

It is not a Jewish movement. It's a movement by former Jews to become Christians. Its roots are in a more explicitly proselytizing movement called Hebrew Christians, where Jews who converted to Christianity met in separate churches, which specifically declared itself an evangelizing branch of mainstream Christianity. The founders of that movement and the founders of Messianic Judaism all said quite plainly that their goal was to convert Jews. It may have very little to do with mainstream Christianity, I guess, though I don't entirely see how that's the case (mainstream evangelical Christianity is also interested in spreading the Good Word and reaching converts), but it has even less to do with Judaism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

Anyone can call themselves Jewish because unlike other religions, Jews are not going to try to kill them for blasphemy. But everyone who is acting in good faith knows that someone who professes that Jesus is the Messiah is … Christian, not Jewish.

Again, who gets to decide? Who are these "everyone who is acting in good faith" who decide that some people are Jewish and others aren't?

lol well, I think pretty much everyone who doesn’t have some weird and/or antisemitic ax to grind can agree that a religion that believes Christ is the Messiah is Christian. You can insist the sky is purple if you want but the rest of us know you have something wrong with your eyes or are being deliberately obtuse.