NY times op ed on the teacher crisis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:These things are fixable and would keep me in this job. If I didn’t have a kid in college, I would’ve quit years ago.

1) Ridiculous amount of testing. So many hours are wasted on this. If I’m testing, I’m not teaching.

2) Student behavior. If a student causes a disruption in a classroom and normal techniques don’t work in ending it, teachers should be allowed to have that child removed. The entire class shouldn’t be held hostage.

3) Curriculum. All teachers should meet and choose appropriate curriculum for their students. There should be flexibility because what works in one school or classroom doesn’t necessarily work everywhere.

4) Work load. If you want me to spend hours on administrative tasks like entering grades in some spreadsheet or platform, give me time other than my planning time to do it or hire us secretaries.

5) Anyone who comes in to observe better be an expert ready to give actual suggestions for improvement and be prepared to model them if needed. I’m tired of tons of suits coming in from central office to observe and then not know what they are talking about.

6) Adequate staffing. I’m shouldn’t have to sub for others because admin can’t find subs. Up the pay big time and fix it.

That’s all for now. My brain is tired.

As a parent, I can get behind everyone of these and would support school board candidates who supported them as well. I'd back union efforts to get these into schools as well. All of this is very reasonable and I think would make life better for teachers AND students -- their interests are usually pretty aligned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

Ok, so if it is not relevant, ignore and move on. I don’t get why this is such a burden.

I think sometimes in this conversation, we need to make a distinction between "things about teaching that are hard or annoying" and "aspects of education that make teaching intolerable or not worth it."

Now, if you want to talk about parents who harass teachers, try to insert themselves into classroom management, complain about normal things to administration, etc., I get it. A unique thing about teaching is this relationship you have with your students' parents, and while you don't work for them, you still have to deal with them. If they are awful and your administration doesn't back you up, that is a huge issue. Ideally teachers and parents should operate as partners in educating kids -- there should be mutual respect and collaboration.

But complaining about a parent whose like "hey Jimmy cut up his knee pretty badly last night on his bike -- it's bandaged up but just wanted to let you know in case you complains about it or has any issues" is just petty. I get why getting a lot of emails like that would be annoying, because I have my own version of that in my own job. It cannot be the reason people are leaving the profession, and if it is, I think they will discover that almost any other job they get will have annoyances at a similar level.

+1000 if teachers think there's no annoying emails in the corporate sector that they will need to respond to, they are sorely mistaken. Also, I constantly hear "working outside of contract hours" as a reason they dislike the job. I don't know any corporate employee that doesn't. In fact, I go to my DD's activity several nights a week and there are a few moms that are teachers and they are NEVER working, but nearly every other working parent there is tethered to their laptop and cell phone.

I just don't buy it. Now, issues like ill behaved children and lack of support from their admin... those seem much more valid reasons to quit.

I'm sorry you don't buy what the teachers in this thread are telling you about their lived experience. There's not much more they can do.

NP. But the things being complained about are pretty much present in every single profession. Long hours, “overtime”, annoying emails, using your own money and resources toward something to do to with your job. To me, these are standard issues every professional adult deals with at work.

Right? I could say all of the same things about my job. Especially the overtime part. I'm never really off. I have clients texting/calling/emailing all hours of the day. I know teachers are off most evenings (at least my kids') because of how long it takes them to respond. In all of our years at school, I've only had one teacher regularly respond within 24 hours. And I'm not a parent that emails a whole lot. That would be absolutely unacceptable in my job.

I'm not saying they aren't dealing with annoying emails and overtime, I'm sure they are, but if those are the deal breakers ... well, there's a lot of jobs that aren't going to be a great fit for you. Not sure what to say.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The simple answer is pay. They can work less, for more $, in the private sector. Why WOULD they want to teach? Loving kids, or loving your work etc (despite the problems) is not always enough. They have families to support too. Raise pay. Significantly.

That said (to address one of the comments): k-12 teaching will NEVER be a career that commonly offers options to work remotely. Ever ever ever. That is an incredibly unreasonable expectation. If you want to work from home, K-12 teaching is not the career for you.

I agree pay and benefits are the core issue. FWIW, we are in DCPS and it seems like even in our Title 1 school, they retain teachers really well. I know there is a pay bump for Title 1 teachers and I think it makes a difference. Some of the veteran teachers at our school make as much as 120k. That's a very good salary in the public sector -- there are engineers who make less, and even high level administrators who oversee large departments only make a bit more. So paying teachers well definitely helps with retention (and I'm betting also helps with job satisfaction -- it's easier to deal with annoying work stuff if you feel you are being well compensated).

But I think the other key issue is administration. The number one complaint I hear from DCPS teachers is frustration with either Central Office or school administration, and the biggest issue is the feeling that the people setting policy, deciding on curriculum, determining schedules, etc., are checked out or don't really care about what is happening at the classroom level. So I think one concrete thing school districts could do to improve teacher retention is to hire more people with actual classroom experience into administration and support roles, and to do a better job of listening to teachers and responding to their feedback. Teachers should have a say in curriculum changes, and their input should be essential to other aspects of policy-making.

I agree with most of this, although I don't know if pay is "the core" issue. It's absurd to think that even $50,000 a 50,000-a-year pay increase would transform unhappy teachers into happy ones if all other conditions remain the same. Greater autonomy and more supportive administration are also needed. The teacher's post listing things to change is amazing.

NP. But the things being complained about are pretty much present in every single profession. Long hours, “overtime”, annoying emails, using your own money and resources toward something to do to with your job. To me, these are standard issues every professional adult deals with at work.

As a public sector employee, the above resonates with me. As a PP noted, there are scores of highly educated professionals who work in public sector jobs who earn low wages, have unreasonable workloads, are expected to devote endless hours of extra labor without compensation (we get BS "comp" time we can't use), and who don't get winter and spring breaks. Check out some attorney discussion boards and read how difficult it is to find public defenders and prosecutors because of the low pay and crushing workload. This is a problem that extends beyond the education field.

Another thing no one has mentioned is that it's difficult as a parent to strike the appropriate balance between supporting our kids and their teachers and becoming too involved. The entire education system needs to be revamped from top to bottom to set teachers up for success, which in turn will improve relationships with parents. With too many meetings and administrative burdens, it's easy to see why teachers' work in the classroom can suffer. Dealing with teachers who lack the time or bandwidth to build relationships with students and ratchets up parental stress.

The article talks about eroded respect for teachers. I always found it interesting that my ADHD kid would get zeros for the work he didn't turn in or turned in late, yet his teachers could take more than 10 days to respond to an email with a straightforward question or were permitted to enter a quarter's work of grades on the last day of the quarter. I tried to be understanding, but I admit my respect for the profession waivered from time to time, and it probably showed. Like teachers, parents are human beings being pulled in multiple directions. I know from experience with my own job that stressed and overwhelmed workers are less effective than happy ones. It's essential to create a workplace where teachers earn respect by having enough time to do the parts of their jobs that students and parents can see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

Progressive policies where remedial learners are kept in classes with advanced learners, getting rid of tracking or ap classes or teaching to the lowest denominator are all factors in this.

The author generally focuses the article partly on culture war stuff like stupid southern schools banning any discussion of trans issues etc, but neglects to include a discussion of the very real problematic issues of teachers being unable to control their classrooms and discipline kids. Basically out of control kids have to stay in the classroom because it’s now “unfair” to suspend or remove them. Until teachers feel safe and respected a big part of teacher retention is unaddressed and the lack of teachers will continue. I agree with much of the other problems in the article, but why it so hard to admit we can’t just restorative Justice hug problems away?

Then why are red states who are as far removed from progressive policies as you can possibly get facing the same (and in some cases greater) shortages?

They also have fewer doctors.

Doctors in the reddest parts of red states get the absolute highest compensation. Perhaps this approach could work for teachers too?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The simple answer is pay. They can work less, for more $, in the private sector. Why WOULD they want to teach? Loving kids, or loving your work etc (despite the problems) is not always enough. They have families to support too. Raise pay. Significantly.

That said (to address one of the comments): k-12 teaching will NEVER be a career that commonly offers options to work remotely. Ever ever ever. That is an incredibly unreasonable expectation. If you want to work from home, K-12 teaching is not the career for you.

I agree pay and benefits are the core issue. FWIW, we are in DCPS and it seems like even in our Title 1 school, they retain teachers really well. I know there is a pay bump for Title 1 teachers and I think it makes a difference. Some of the veteran teachers at our school make as much as 120k. That's a very good salary in the public sector -- there are engineers who make less, and even high level administrators who oversee large departments only make a bit more. So paying teachers well definitely helps with retention (and I'm betting also helps with job satisfaction -- it's easier to deal with annoying work stuff if you feel you are being well compensated).

But I think the other key issue is administration. The number one complaint I hear from DCPS teachers is frustration with either Central Office or school administration, and the biggest issue is the feeling that the people setting policy, deciding on curriculum, determining schedules, etc., are checked out or don't really care about what is happening at the classroom level. So I think one concrete thing school districts could do to improve teacher retention is to hire more people with actual classroom experience into administration and support roles, and to do a better job of listening to teachers and responding to their feedback. Teachers should have a say in curriculum changes, and their input should be essential to other aspects of policy-making.

I agree with most of this, although I don't know if pay is "the core" issue. It's absurd to think that even $50,000 a 50,000-a-year pay increase would transform unhappy teachers into happy ones if all other conditions remain the same. Greater autonomy and more supportive administration are also needed. The teacher's post listing things to change is amazing.

NP. But the things being complained about are pretty much present in every single profession. Long hours, “overtime”, annoying emails, using your own money and resources toward something to do to with your job. To me, these are standard issues every professional adult deals with at work.

As a public sector employee, the above resonates with me. As a PP noted, there are scores of highly educated professionals who work in public sector jobs who earn low wages, have unreasonable workloads, are expected to devote endless hours of extra labor without compensation (we get BS "comp" time we can't use), and who don't get winter and spring breaks. Check out some attorney discussion boards and read how difficult it is to find public defenders and prosecutors because of the low pay and crushing workload. This is a problem that extends beyond the education field.

Another thing no one has mentioned is that it's difficult as a parent to strike the appropriate balance between supporting our kids and their teachers and becoming too involved. The entire education system needs to be revamped from top to bottom to set teachers up for success, which in turn will improve relationships with parents. With too many meetings and administrative burdens, it's easy to see why teachers' work in the classroom can suffer. Dealing with teachers who lack the time or bandwidth to build relationships with students and ratchets up parental stress.

The article talks about eroded respect for teachers. I always found it interesting that my ADHD kid would get zeros for the work he didn't turn in or turned in late, yet his teachers could take more than 10 days to respond to an email with a straightforward question or were permitted to enter a quarter's work of grades on the last day of the quarter. I tried to be understanding, but I admit my respect for the profession waivered from time to time, and it probably showed. Like teachers, parents are human beings being pulled in multiple directions. I know from experience with my own job that stressed and overwhelmed workers are less effective than happy ones. It's essential to create a workplace where teachers earn respect by having enough time to do the parts of their jobs that students and parents can see.

Very thoughtful response.

I think one thing to consider is that if parents and teachers join forces, they actually can force positive change in the industry for both teachers and students. I think it's very tempting at times for teachers to get mired in an us v. them attitude with parents (or worse, with kids, though thankfully you see that less often). But really, in an ideal situation, these groups would work together. The actual powers that be (politicians, administrators, and sadly, education consultants) benefit when teachers and parents just point fingers at each other, because it keeps us from actually holding these people, who set education policy, control curriculum, and determine funding, accountable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

Ok, so if it is not relevant, ignore and move on. I don’t get why this is such a burden.

I think sometimes in this conversation, we need to make a distinction between "things about teaching that are hard or annoying" and "aspects of education that make teaching intolerable or not worth it."

Now, if you want to talk about parents who harass teachers, try to insert themselves into classroom management, complain about normal things to administration, etc., I get it. A unique thing about teaching is this relationship you have with your students' parents, and while you don't work for them, you still have to deal with them. If they are awful and your administration doesn't back you up, that is a huge issue. Ideally teachers and parents should operate as partners in educating kids -- there should be mutual respect and collaboration.

But complaining about a parent whose like "hey Jimmy cut up his knee pretty badly last night on his bike -- it's bandaged up but just wanted to let you know in case you complains about it or has any issues" is just petty. I get why getting a lot of emails like that would be annoying, because I have my own version of that in my own job. It cannot be the reason people are leaving the profession, and if it is, I think they will discover that almost any other job they get will have annoyances at a similar level.

+1000 if teachers think there's no annoying emails in the corporate sector that they will need to respond to, they are sorely mistaken. Also, I constantly hear "working outside of contract hours" as a reason they dislike the job. I don't know any corporate employee that doesn't. In fact, I go to my DD's activity several nights a week and there are a few moms that are teachers and they are NEVER working, but nearly every other working parent there is tethered to their laptop and cell phone.

I just don't buy it. Now, issues like ill behaved children and lack of support from their admin... those seem much more valid reasons to quit.

I used to teach elementary and now work as a federal contractor. Teaching work includes a lot of paper, heavy notebooks, teacher manuals, chart paper, etc. It’s not something than can be easily schlepped around.

I will say that contracting is generally less intense. Teaching is about being on every second and doing three things at once. It’s more exhausting, per minute of work. In contacting, I’ll write reports while listening to focus music or sit in a useful meeting with colleagues. The work is steady, and still needs to be done well, but teaching is a while different ball game. If you don’t believe me, you are welcome to sign up as a teacher. We need more good people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:These things are fixable and would keep me in this job. If I didn’t have a kid in college, I would’ve quit years ago.

1) Ridiculous amount of testing. So many hours are wasted on this. If I’m testing, I’m not teaching.

2) Student behavior. If a student causes a disruption in a classroom and normal techniques don’t work in ending it, teachers should be allowed to have that child removed. The entire class shouldn’t be held hostage.

3) Curriculum. All teachers should meet and choose appropriate curriculum for their students. There should be flexibility because what works in one school or classroom doesn’t necessarily work everywhere.

4) Work load. If you want me to spend hours on administrative tasks like entering grades in some spreadsheet or platform, give me time other than my planning time to do it or hire us secretaries.

5) Anyone who comes in to observe better be an expert ready to give actual suggestions for improvement and be prepared to model them if needed. I’m tired of tons of suits coming in from central office to observe and then not know what they are talking about.

6) Adequate staffing. I’m shouldn’t have to sub for others because admin can’t find subs. Up the pay big time and fix it.

That’s all for now. My brain is tired.

Perfectly stated. I'm a Special Ed teacher and I'd add that it's two jobs, no matter how you slice it. Most workers are not willing to do two jobs unless they get paid accordingly. That's why most districts have hundreds of Special Ed positions open.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The simple answer is pay. They can work less, for more $, in the private sector. Why WOULD they want to teach? Loving kids, or loving your work etc (despite the problems) is not always enough. They have families to support too. Raise pay. Significantly.

That said (to address one of the comments): k-12 teaching will NEVER be a career that commonly offers options to work remotely. Ever ever ever. That is an incredibly unreasonable expectation. If you want to work from home, K-12 teaching is not the career for you.

I agree pay and benefits are the core issue. FWIW, we are in DCPS and it seems like even in our Title 1 school, they retain teachers really well. I know there is a pay bump for Title 1 teachers and I think it makes a difference. Some of the veteran teachers at our school make as much as 120k. That's a very good salary in the public sector -- there are engineers who make less, and even high level administrators who oversee large departments only make a bit more. So paying teachers well definitely helps with retention (and I'm betting also helps with job satisfaction -- it's easier to deal with annoying work stuff if you feel you are being well compensated).

But I think the other key issue is administration. The number one complaint I hear from DCPS teachers is frustration with either Central Office or school administration, and the biggest issue is the feeling that the people setting policy, deciding on curriculum, determining schedules, etc., are checked out or don't really care about what is happening at the classroom level. So I think one concrete thing school districts could do to improve teacher retention is to hire more people with actual classroom experience into administration and support roles, and to do a better job of listening to teachers and responding to their feedback. Teachers should have a say in curriculum changes, and their input should be essential to other aspects of policy-making.

I agree with most of this, although I don't know if pay is "the core" issue. It's absurd to think that even $50,000 a 50,000-a-year pay increase would transform unhappy teachers into happy ones if all other conditions remain the same. Greater autonomy and more supportive administration are also needed. The teacher's post listing things to change is amazing.

NP. But the things being complained about are pretty much present in every single profession. Long hours, “overtime”, annoying emails, using your own money and resources toward something to do to with your job. To me, these are standard issues every professional adult deals with at work.

As a public sector employee, the above resonates with me. As a PP noted, there are scores of highly educated professionals who work in public sector jobs who earn low wages, have unreasonable workloads, are expected to devote endless hours of extra labor without compensation (we get BS "comp" time we can't use), and who don't get winter and spring breaks. Check out some attorney discussion boards and read how difficult it is to find public defenders and prosecutors because of the low pay and crushing workload. This is a problem that extends beyond the education field.

Another thing no one has mentioned is that it's difficult as a parent to strike the appropriate balance between supporting our kids and their teachers and becoming too involved. The entire education system needs to be revamped from top to bottom to set teachers up for success, which in turn will improve relationships with parents. With too many meetings and administrative burdens, it's easy to see why teachers' work in the classroom can suffer. Dealing with teachers who lack the time or bandwidth to build relationships with students and ratchets up parental stress.

The article talks about eroded respect for teachers. I always found it interesting that my ADHD kid would get zeros for the work he didn't turn in or turned in late, yet his teachers could take more than 10 days to respond to an email with a straightforward question or were permitted to enter a quarter's work of grades on the last day of the quarter. I tried to be understanding, but I admit my respect for the profession waivered from time to time, and it probably showed. Like teachers, parents are human beings being pulled in multiple directions. I know from experience with my own job that stressed and overwhelmed workers are less effective than happy ones. It's essential to create a workplace where teachers earn respect by having enough time to do the parts of their jobs that students and parents can see.

My DD didn't turn in her homework on time ONCE in 2nd grade last year and she was forced to not participate in their extra recess as a punishment. She kept saying she brought it, the teacher wouldn't listen to her ... well turns out the homework collector kid stashed it under a pile. They found it the next day. Crazy punishment for a 7 year old IMO. This teacher then at the end of the year didn't even fully enter her grades on her report card. I emailed during their PD days at the end of the year to ask about this and got zero response. She has no grades still for that quarter online.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These things are fixable and would keep me in this job. If I didn’t have a kid in college, I would’ve quit years ago.

1) Ridiculous amount of testing. So many hours are wasted on this. If I’m testing, I’m not teaching.

2) Student behavior. If a student causes a disruption in a classroom and normal techniques don’t work in ending it, teachers should be allowed to have that child removed. The entire class shouldn’t be held hostage.

3) Curriculum. All teachers should meet and choose appropriate curriculum for their students. There should be flexibility because what works in one school or classroom doesn’t necessarily work everywhere.

4) Work load. If you want me to spend hours on administrative tasks like entering grades in some spreadsheet or platform, give me time other than my planning time to do it or hire us secretaries.

5) Anyone who comes in to observe better be an expert ready to give actual suggestions for improvement and be prepared to model them if needed. I’m tired of tons of suits coming in from central office to observe and then not know what they are talking about.

6) Adequate staffing. I’m shouldn’t have to sub for others because admin can’t find subs. Up the pay big time and fix it.

That’s all for now. My brain is tired.

This is such a thoughtful and action-oriented response. Thank yobu for taking the time to write it!

Just a heads up for anyone thinking that anything is ever going to change. It probably won't. Maybe when there's no teachers left it will?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. If we can’t have an honest discussion where constructive criticism of discipline policy is a focal issue then we can continue to bury our heads and lament as teacher shortages rise. If teachers don’t feel safe they won’t teach. If they have disruptive or violent kids in their classes who must remain there because of policy then you’ll see the problem be an issue.

I'm a teacher and I love restorative justice programs. It's not even in the top 5 reasons I'm constantly one foot out the door.

1) The pay
2) The hours outside of contractual time
3) Parent expectations in terms of constant communication
4) Abundance of mandated state testing
5) Being in one of the few fields that will never transition to a remote or hybrid model.

You don't like RJ clearly, considering your OP was immediately blaming progressives for the teacher shortage. Here is a teacher telling you that RJ is not an issue to me at all.

Another teacher agreeing with my colleague. See above.

I am a teacher as well. I don’t really care much about RJ, but it is not supposed to a replacement for consequences. It is supposed to take place after consequences if there is an event or as a way to prevent the conflict from worsening.

However, many students/parents don’t respect teachers or education and thanks to devices don’t know how to be bored or to socialize well with others.

My biggest concern is the watering down of curriculums and 50% grading rules.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. If we can’t have an honest discussion where constructive criticism of discipline policy is a focal issue then we can continue to bury our heads and lament as teacher shortages rise. If teachers don’t feel safe they won’t teach. If they have disruptive or violent kids in their classes who must remain there because of policy then you’ll see the problem be an issue.

I'm a teacher and I love restorative justice programs. It's not even in the top 5 reasons I'm constantly one foot out the door.

1) The pay
2) The hours outside of contractual time
3) Parent expectations in terms of constant communication
4) Abundance of mandated state testing
5) Being in one of the few fields that will never transition to a remote or hybrid model.

You don't like RJ clearly, considering your OP was immediately blaming progressives for the teacher shortage. Here is a teacher telling you that RJ is not an issue to me at all.

In DCPS it’s 1) RJ and 2) state testing for me

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

Ok, so if it is not relevant, ignore and move on. I don’t get why this is such a burden.

I think sometimes in this conversation, we need to make a distinction between "things about teaching that are hard or annoying" and "aspects of education that make teaching intolerable or not worth it."

Now, if you want to talk about parents who harass teachers, try to insert themselves into classroom management, complain about normal things to administration, etc., I get it. A unique thing about teaching is this relationship you have with your students' parents, and while you don't work for them, you still have to deal with them. If they are awful and your administration doesn't back you up, that is a huge issue. Ideally teachers and parents should operate as partners in educating kids -- there should be mutual respect and collaboration.

But complaining about a parent whose like "hey Jimmy cut up his knee pretty badly last night on his bike -- it's bandaged up but just wanted to let you know in case you complains about it or has any issues" is just petty. I get why getting a lot of emails like that would be annoying, because I have my own version of that in my own job. It cannot be the reason people are leaving the profession, and if it is, I think they will discover that almost any other job they get will have annoyances at a similar level.

+1000 if teachers think there's no annoying emails in the corporate sector that they will need to respond to, they are sorely mistaken. Also, I constantly hear "working outside of contract hours" as a reason they dislike the job. I don't know any corporate employee that doesn't. In fact, I go to my DD's activity several nights a week and there are a few moms that are teachers and they are NEVER working, but nearly every other working parent there is tethered to their laptop and cell phone.

I just don't buy it. Now, issues like ill behaved children and lack of support from their admin... those seem much more valid reasons to quit.

I'm sorry you don't buy what the teachers in this thread are telling you about their lived experience. There's not much more they can do.

NP. But the things being complained about are pretty much present in every single profession. Long hours, “overtime”, annoying emails, using your own money and resources toward something to do to with your job. To me, these are standard issues every professional adult deals with at work.

Right? I could say all of the same things about my job. Especially the overtime part. I'm never really off. I have clients texting/calling/emailing all hours of the day. I know teachers are off most evenings (at least my kids') because of how long it takes them to respond. In all of our years at school, I've only had one teacher regularly respond within 24 hours. And I'm not a parent that emails a whole lot. That would be absolutely unacceptable in my job.

I'm not saying they aren't dealing with annoying emails and overtime, I'm sure they are, but if those are the deal breakers ... well, there's a lot of jobs that aren't going to be a great fit for you. Not sure what to say.

But this thread isn’t “why we can’t get more people to work in non-profits.” It’s specifically about what is causing teachers to leave the profession in such high numbers that it’s causing a literal crisis. My school has two classrooms that are currently being staffed by SPED and ESOL teachers because they still don’t have classroom teachers. I disagree that teachers are leaving because of minor quibbles common in most professions, but even if that is so, our entire society depends on teachers doing their jobs to educate our kids, and if there aren’t enough of them, we have a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

Ok, so if it is not relevant, ignore and move on. I don’t get why this is such a burden.

I think sometimes in this conversation, we need to make a distinction between "things about teaching that are hard or annoying" and "aspects of education that make teaching intolerable or not worth it."

Now, if you want to talk about parents who harass teachers, try to insert themselves into classroom management, complain about normal things to administration, etc., I get it. A unique thing about teaching is this relationship you have with your students' parents, and while you don't work for them, you still have to deal with them. If they are awful and your administration doesn't back you up, that is a huge issue. Ideally teachers and parents should operate as partners in educating kids -- there should be mutual respect and collaboration.

But complaining about a parent whose like "hey Jimmy cut up his knee pretty badly last night on his bike -- it's bandaged up but just wanted to let you know in case you complains about it or has any issues" is just petty. I get why getting a lot of emails like that would be annoying, because I have my own version of that in my own job. It cannot be the reason people are leaving the profession, and if it is, I think they will discover that almost any other job they get will have annoyances at a similar level.

+1000 if teachers think there's no annoying emails in the corporate sector that they will need to respond to, they are sorely mistaken. Also, I constantly hear "working outside of contract hours" as a reason they dislike the job. I don't know any corporate employee that doesn't. In fact, I go to my DD's activity several nights a week and there are a few moms that are teachers and they are NEVER working, but nearly every other working parent there is tethered to their laptop and cell phone.

I just don't buy it. Now, issues like ill behaved children and lack of support from their admin... those seem much more valid reasons to quit.

I'm sorry you don't buy what the teachers in this thread are telling you about their lived experience. There's not much more they can do.

NP. But the things being complained about are pretty much present in every single profession. Long hours, “overtime”, annoying emails, using your own money and resources toward something to do to with your job. To me, these are standard issues every professional adult deals with at work.

Right? I could say all of the same things about my job. Especially the overtime part. I'm never really off. I have clients texting/calling/emailing all hours of the day. I know teachers are off most evenings (at least my kids') because of how long it takes them to respond. In all of our years at school, I've only had one teacher regularly respond within 24 hours. And I'm not a parent that emails a whole lot. That would be absolutely unacceptable in my job.

I'm not saying they aren't dealing with annoying emails and overtime, I'm sure they are, but if those are the deal breakers ... well, there's a lot of jobs that aren't going to be a great fit for you. Not sure what to say.

But this thread isn’t “why we can’t get more people to work in non-profits.” It’s specifically about what is causing teachers to leave the profession in such high numbers that it’s causing a literal crisis. My school has two classrooms that are currently being staffed by SPED and ESOL teachers because they still don’t have classroom teachers. I disagree that teachers are leaving because of minor quibbles common in most professions, but even if that is so, our entire society depends on teachers doing their jobs to educate our kids, and if there aren’t enough of them, we have a problem.

I think it's because teaching in general is a craft where you need to put a lot of work preparing on the front end, complete and utter juggling when actually in the classroom performing the job, and alot of reflecting on the backend. There are just not enough time. Also, there is the emotional and physical toll it takes on a human to care for the students in your class. Naturally more sensitive or caring people gravitate towards helping professions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

Ok, so if it is not relevant, ignore and move on. I don’t get why this is such a burden.

I think sometimes in this conversation, we need to make a distinction between "things about teaching that are hard or annoying" and "aspects of education that make teaching intolerable or not worth it."

Now, if you want to talk about parents who harass teachers, try to insert themselves into classroom management, complain about normal things to administration, etc., I get it. A unique thing about teaching is this relationship you have with your students' parents, and while you don't work for them, you still have to deal with them. If they are awful and your administration doesn't back you up, that is a huge issue. Ideally teachers and parents should operate as partners in educating kids -- there should be mutual respect and collaboration.

But complaining about a parent whose like "hey Jimmy cut up his knee pretty badly last night on his bike -- it's bandaged up but just wanted to let you know in case you complains about it or has any issues" is just petty. I get why getting a lot of emails like that would be annoying, because I have my own version of that in my own job. It cannot be the reason people are leaving the profession, and if it is, I think they will discover that almost any other job they get will have annoyances at a similar level.

+1000 if teachers think there's no annoying emails in the corporate sector that they will need to respond to, they are sorely mistaken. Also, I constantly hear "working outside of contract hours" as a reason they dislike the job. I don't know any corporate employee that doesn't. In fact, I go to my DD's activity several nights a week and there are a few moms that are teachers and they are NEVER working, but nearly every other working parent there is tethered to their laptop and cell phone.

I just don't buy it. Now, issues like ill behaved children and lack of support from their admin... those seem much more valid reasons to quit.

I'm sorry you don't buy what the teachers in this thread are telling you about their lived experience. There's not much more they can do.

NP. But the things being complained about are pretty much present in every single profession. Long hours, “overtime”, annoying emails, using your own money and resources toward something to do to with your job. To me, these are standard issues every professional adult deals with at work.

Right? I could say all of the same things about my job. Especially the overtime part. I'm never really off. I have clients texting/calling/emailing all hours of the day. I know teachers are off most evenings (at least my kids') because of how long it takes them to respond. In all of our years at school, I've only had one teacher regularly respond within 24 hours. And I'm not a parent that emails a whole lot. That would be absolutely unacceptable in my job.

I'm not saying they aren't dealing with annoying emails and overtime, I'm sure they are, but if those are the deal breakers ... well, there's a lot of jobs that aren't going to be a great fit for you. Not sure what to say.

But this thread isn’t “why we can’t get more people to work in non-profits.” It’s specifically about what is causing teachers to leave the profession in such high numbers that it’s causing a literal crisis. My school has two classrooms that are currently being staffed by SPED and ESOL teachers because they still don’t have classroom teachers. I disagree that teachers are leaving because of minor quibbles common in most professions, but even if that is so, our entire society depends on teachers doing their jobs to educate our kids, and if there aren’t enough of them, we have a problem.

I think it's because teaching in general is a craft where you need to put a lot of work preparing on the front end, complete and utter juggling when actually in the classroom performing the job, and alot of reflecting on the backend. There are just not enough time. Also, there is the emotional and physical toll it takes on a human to care for the students in your class. Naturally more sensitive or caring people gravitate towards helping professions.

I also think that the first 10 years of teaching can be really rough, and we see a lot of attrition in those years, but less with more veteran teachers because (1) they have figured out how to deal with some of the unavoidable annoyances, like lots of requests from need parents, (2) they start to see higher salaries and come to value the pension more, and (3) they don't have to do quite so much work preparing on the front end each year because they can recycle things from previous years. By year 10, you have seen enough kids and been in enough situations that some of this stuff can be on auto-pilot. Like the complaints about annoying emails from parents? I think you are less likely to hear that from a 10+ year veteran because by then teachers are pretty good just being like "ok, thanks for letting me know!" to all the unnecessary emails and then moving on. They've learned not to let it irk them

I think one of the best investments we could make would be in helping teachers get through those first ten years. In addition to ensuring the pay attracts enough of the right candidates, and that administration and governance are supporting the teachers instead of burdening them, I also think teachers could benefit from more mental health support. Especially for teachers working within higher stress environments. I sometimes think that simply having someone to talk to, or getting training in stuff like using emotional detachment appropriately or how mindfulness can get you through especially difficult moments with kids (or their parents), could go a long way to helping younger teachers stick it out and get to the more satisfying stage of their careers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some parents constantly email, about every little thing. I don’t need to know why Susie has a band-aid on her knee. Believe me, she’s going to tell the whole class. I don’t care that a week from Tuesday Jose will be leaving early to see his grandparents. Just send him with a note that morning. There’s nothing worse than opening your computer in the morning and having to take time to read and respond. Ask yourself, if this was in your childhood, would your mom have called the teacher on the phone about it? If it’s that important, go ahead and email. Otherwise, let it go.

Ok, so if it is not relevant, ignore and move on. I don’t get why this is such a burden.

I think sometimes in this conversation, we need to make a distinction between "things about teaching that are hard or annoying" and "aspects of education that make teaching intolerable or not worth it."

Now, if you want to talk about parents who harass teachers, try to insert themselves into classroom management, complain about normal things to administration, etc., I get it. A unique thing about teaching is this relationship you have with your students' parents, and while you don't work for them, you still have to deal with them. If they are awful and your administration doesn't back you up, that is a huge issue. Ideally teachers and parents should operate as partners in educating kids -- there should be mutual respect and collaboration.

But complaining about a parent whose like "hey Jimmy cut up his knee pretty badly last night on his bike -- it's bandaged up but just wanted to let you know in case you complains about it or has any issues" is just petty. I get why getting a lot of emails like that would be annoying, because I have my own version of that in my own job. It cannot be the reason people are leaving the profession, and if it is, I think they will discover that almost any other job they get will have annoyances at a similar level.

+1000 if teachers think there's no annoying emails in the corporate sector that they will need to respond to, they are sorely mistaken. Also, I constantly hear "working outside of contract hours" as a reason they dislike the job. I don't know any corporate employee that doesn't. In fact, I go to my DD's activity several nights a week and there are a few moms that are teachers and they are NEVER working, but nearly every other working parent there is tethered to their laptop and cell phone.

I just don't buy it. Now, issues like ill behaved children and lack of support from their admin... those seem much more valid reasons to quit.

I'm sorry you don't buy what the teachers in this thread are telling you about their lived experience. There's not much more they can do.

NP. But the things being complained about are pretty much present in every single profession. Long hours, “overtime”, annoying emails, using your own money and resources toward something to do to with your job. To me, these are standard issues every professional adult deals with at work.

Right? I could say all of the same things about my job. Especially the overtime part. I'm never really off. I have clients texting/calling/emailing all hours of the day. I know teachers are off most evenings (at least my kids') because of how long it takes them to respond. In all of our years at school, I've only had one teacher regularly respond within 24 hours. And I'm not a parent that emails a whole lot. That would be absolutely unacceptable in my job.

I'm not saying they aren't dealing with annoying emails and overtime, I'm sure they are, but if those are the deal breakers ... well, there's a lot of jobs that aren't going to be a great fit for you. Not sure what to say.

Right but they are saying that communication with parents and the admin part is too much. I want my kids teacher teaching, learning new things, trying new things, researching different techniques, working 1:1, doing lesson plans, grading and actually LOOKING at it and then following up 1:1 with that student or in small groups that have the same problem. They spend too much time on testing and parent coordination to do those things. Their job is in front of the students and the students work. This other crap is the 2nd job. Its not the same job. Its a related job.

Im just wondering whether you understand the dynamics of teaching vs a private sector job. You as a private sector employee have your boss, your customer/clients right? Who is the customer/client relationship with a teacher and who is the boss? You are acting as if an email to a client = email to a parent.