Extreme resentment over mental load

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And, to be clear, she can do the same. Nobody's forcing her to make a "magical" holiday experience. If you don't enjoy it, stop.

I mean, these things are important, to a degree.

But if I'm operating under extreme resentment and loathing because my spouse cannot or will not participate in the child's lives, I'm editing my mental load and protecting my mental health.

Millions of people live perfectly fine lives without ever celebrating Christmas at all, ever. This shit is entirely optional.

That’s total bullsh*t. Depriving your kid of cultural celebrations isn’t abuse per se but it’s really bad parenting. This is obviously just a cope to claim that traditional women’s work has no value.

So people who don't care about Christmas are abusers? You're mental. Get help.

Women's work has value so they should limit how often that value gets tapped without compensation or reciprocation. If you can't figure out how to do that without "depriving your kid of cultural celebrations" you shouldn't have had kids. The radio plays free Christmas music, every mall has a santa, holiday lights are probably all over your neighborhood and walking is free. You don't have to pay money or time to celebrate the holiday, should you choose.

It's "total bullsh*t" that this thread is this long and some of y'all still can't figure this out for your allegedly-grown selves, let alone the children you love and overprotect so damned much. God help their future spouses!

All of those things you listed take time. And you probably should not have kids if you don’t want to create a happy home for them.

So you want to create a happy home? Like this is a choice you make because you want it, not a burden thrust on you?

I want men to take equal responsibility to create a happy home and not freeload on women and then if called on it, claim that the only thing kids need is food and water.

Who gets to decide when is the home happy?
Women just can't grasp how little it actually takes to make a man happy. They need about 3 things and women need about 1,000. And women can't understand why men don't just jump and complete 500 chores that he doesn't care about or even think to do because happiness was achieved 997 chores ago

What about the kids?

450 of those chores are for the kids. You misinterpret them as being for your wife's "happiness" when she's really just trying to help you fulfill your obligation as a dad.

AND because she has the ability to engage in planning a long term thinking, she also understand that a lot of what she's trying to get you to do is actually essential to your longterm happiness. Because if you do what you want, which is the bare minimum, your kids will eventually come to resent you and not want to spend time with you. And there is going to come a day when you suddenly want a family around you who cares about you. And you're going to be mad when your kids are like "Sorry, Dad, I'm so busy with work. Happy birthday though." Even though this is literally what you did to them and your wife for decades. This is precisely what all those things she's trying to get you to do is designed to prevent, but you are too shortsighted to realize this.

You will wind up angry and alone and wondering why your family has abandoned you, and I'm here to tell you that it's because you refused to give a damn about the happiness of your wife or children so they stopped giving a damn about yours.

This is a thread about optional tasks. It’s clear many of the posters here are unable to decide what’s important and prioritize.

The only person who ends up angry is the person who cannot prioritize and thinks her whole family should do the things she thinks is important.
-a woman who doesn’t engage in fake work

Is celebrating the holidays optional when you have kids?

Holidays, real vacations, sports, and experiences were not done at my aspergers in law’s home. Neither were birthday cakes.

Guess how they all turned out!?

Just fine?

+1. It was good enough for the son to find and hold a job, find a wife, and have some children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And, to be clear, she can do the same. Nobody's forcing her to make a "magical" holiday experience. If you don't enjoy it, stop.

I mean, these things are important, to a degree.

But if I'm operating under extreme resentment and loathing because my spouse cannot or will not participate in the child's lives, I'm editing my mental load and protecting my mental health.

Millions of people live perfectly fine lives without ever celebrating Christmas at all, ever. This shit is entirely optional.

That’s total bullsh*t. Depriving your kid of cultural celebrations isn’t abuse per se but it’s really bad parenting. This is obviously just a cope to claim that traditional women’s work has no value.

So people who don't care about Christmas are abusers? You're mental. Get help.

Women's work has value so they should limit how often that value gets tapped without compensation or reciprocation. If you can't figure out how to do that without "depriving your kid of cultural celebrations" you shouldn't have had kids. The radio plays free Christmas music, every mall has a santa, holiday lights are probably all over your neighborhood and walking is free. You don't have to pay money or time to celebrate the holiday, should you choose.

It's "total bullsh*t" that this thread is this long and some of y'all still can't figure this out for your allegedly-grown selves, let alone the children you love and overprotect so damned much. God help their future spouses!

All of those things you listed take time. And you probably should not have kids if you don’t want to create a happy home for them.

So you want to create a happy home? Like this is a choice you make because you want it, not a burden thrust on you?

I want men to take equal responsibility to create a happy home and not freeload on women and then if called on it, claim that the only thing kids need is food and water.

Who gets to decide when is the home happy?
Women just can't grasp how little it actually takes to make a man happy. They need about 3 things and women need about 1,000. And women can't understand why men don't just jump and complete 500 chores that he doesn't care about or even think to do because happiness was achieved 997 chores ago

What about the kids?

450 of those chores are for the kids. You misinterpret them as being for your wife's "happiness" when she's really just trying to help you fulfill your obligation as a dad.

AND because she has the ability to engage in planning a long term thinking, she also understand that a lot of what she's trying to get you to do is actually essential to your longterm happiness. Because if you do what you want, which is the bare minimum, your kids will eventually come to resent you and not want to spend time with you. And there is going to come a day when you suddenly want a family around you who cares about you. And you're going to be mad when your kids are like "Sorry, Dad, I'm so busy with work. Happy birthday though." Even though this is literally what you did to them and your wife for decades. This is precisely what all those things she's trying to get you to do is designed to prevent, but you are too shortsighted to realize this.

You will wind up angry and alone and wondering why your family has abandoned you, and I'm here to tell you that it's because you refused to give a damn about the happiness of your wife or children so they stopped giving a damn about yours.

This is a thread about optional tasks. It’s clear many of the posters here are unable to decide what’s important and prioritize.

The only person who ends up angry is the person who cannot prioritize and thinks her whole family should do the things she thinks is important.
-a woman who doesn’t engage in fake work

Is celebrating the holidays optional when you have kids?

Holidays, real vacations, sports, and experiences were not done at my aspergers in law’s home. Neither were birthday cakes.

Guess how they all turned out!?

Just fine?

1 divorced narc son with no friends or relationship w his kids. He works. No hobbies or friends.

1 unemployed single 42 yo son still living with them. Churns through hobbies and friends.

The 70-something parents have no friends, jsut cook, cook, read books, dont talk to each other much, and watch two movies a day for the last 5 decades.

Oh wow. Why would you marry someone like your ex DH and his loser family?

They lived abroad and out on a show once a year when I visited.

Met their son in Ivy grad school, gave him the benefit of the doubt too many times, he said he wanted the whole shebang, got married, had kids and he shut down. By then I saw his brother had untreated mental issues and so did his father and likely mother.
He himself got a neuropsych test, has several Dxs, refuses to treat them. I got the kids old enough to stick up for themselves and we divorced. He works a lot so I get the kids more than 90%.

Everyone is better off. Including him with less non-work adult responsibilities and pressures.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And, to be clear, she can do the same. Nobody's forcing her to make a "magical" holiday experience. If you don't enjoy it, stop.

I mean, these things are important, to a degree.

But if I'm operating under extreme resentment and loathing because my spouse cannot or will not participate in the child's lives, I'm editing my mental load and protecting my mental health.

Millions of people live perfectly fine lives without ever celebrating Christmas at all, ever. This shit is entirely optional.

That’s total bullsh*t. Depriving your kid of cultural celebrations isn’t abuse per se but it’s really bad parenting. This is obviously just a cope to claim that traditional women’s work has no value.

So people who don't care about Christmas are abusers? You're mental. Get help.

Women's work has value so they should limit how often that value gets tapped without compensation or reciprocation. If you can't figure out how to do that without "depriving your kid of cultural celebrations" you shouldn't have had kids. The radio plays free Christmas music, every mall has a santa, holiday lights are probably all over your neighborhood and walking is free. You don't have to pay money or time to celebrate the holiday, should you choose.

It's "total bullsh*t" that this thread is this long and some of y'all still can't figure this out for your allegedly-grown selves, let alone the children you love and overprotect so damned much. God help their future spouses!

All of those things you listed take time. And you probably should not have kids if you don’t want to create a happy home for them.

So you want to create a happy home? Like this is a choice you make because you want it, not a burden thrust on you?

I want men to take equal responsibility to create a happy home and not freeload on women and then if called on it, claim that the only thing kids need is food and water.

Who gets to decide when is the home happy?
Women just can't grasp how little it actually takes to make a man happy. They need about 3 things and women need about 1,000. And women can't understand why men don't just jump and complete 500 chores that he doesn't care about or even think to do because happiness was achieved 997 chores ago

What about the kids?

450 of those chores are for the kids. You misinterpret them as being for your wife's "happiness" when she's really just trying to help you fulfill your obligation as a dad.

AND because she has the ability to engage in planning a long term thinking, she also understand that a lot of what she's trying to get you to do is actually essential to your longterm happiness. Because if you do what you want, which is the bare minimum, your kids will eventually come to resent you and not want to spend time with you. And there is going to come a day when you suddenly want a family around you who cares about you. And you're going to be mad when your kids are like "Sorry, Dad, I'm so busy with work. Happy birthday though." Even though this is literally what you did to them and your wife for decades. This is precisely what all those things she's trying to get you to do is designed to prevent, but you are too shortsighted to realize this.

You will wind up angry and alone and wondering why your family has abandoned you, and I'm here to tell you that it's because you refused to give a damn about the happiness of your wife or children so they stopped giving a damn about yours.

This is a thread about optional tasks. It’s clear many of the posters here are unable to decide what’s important and prioritize.

The only person who ends up angry is the person who cannot prioritize and thinks her whole family should do the things she thinks is important.
-a woman who doesn’t engage in fake work

Is celebrating the holidays optional when you have kids?

Holidays, real vacations, sports, and experiences were not done at my aspergers in law’s home. Neither were birthday cakes.

Guess how they all turned out!?

Just fine?

+1. It was good enough for the son to find and hold a job, find a wife, and have some children.

Masking works until it doesn’t!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And, to be clear, she can do the same. Nobody's forcing her to make a "magical" holiday experience. If you don't enjoy it, stop.

I mean, these things are important, to a degree.

But if I'm operating under extreme resentment and loathing because my spouse cannot or will not participate in the child's lives, I'm editing my mental load and protecting my mental health.

Millions of people live perfectly fine lives without ever celebrating Christmas at all, ever. This shit is entirely optional.

That’s total bullsh*t. Depriving your kid of cultural celebrations isn’t abuse per se but it’s really bad parenting. This is obviously just a cope to claim that traditional women’s work has no value.

So people who don't care about Christmas are abusers? You're mental. Get help.

Women's work has value so they should limit how often that value gets tapped without compensation or reciprocation. If you can't figure out how to do that without "depriving your kid of cultural celebrations" you shouldn't have had kids. The radio plays free Christmas music, every mall has a santa, holiday lights are probably all over your neighborhood and walking is free. You don't have to pay money or time to celebrate the holiday, should you choose.

It's "total bullsh*t" that this thread is this long and some of y'all still can't figure this out for your allegedly-grown selves, let alone the children you love and overprotect so damned much. God help their future spouses!

All of those things you listed take time. And you probably should not have kids if you don’t want to create a happy home for them.

So you want to create a happy home? Like this is a choice you make because you want it, not a burden thrust on you?

I want men to take equal responsibility to create a happy home and not freeload on women and then if called on it, claim that the only thing kids need is food and water.

Who gets to decide when is the home happy?
Women just can't grasp how little it actually takes to make a man happy. They need about 3 things and women need about 1,000. And women can't understand why men don't just jump and complete 500 chores that he doesn't care about or even think to do because happiness was achieved 997 chores ago

What about the kids?

450 of those chores are for the kids. You misinterpret them as being for your wife's "happiness" when she's really just trying to help you fulfill your obligation as a dad.

AND because she has the ability to engage in planning a long term thinking, she also understand that a lot of what she's trying to get you to do is actually essential to your longterm happiness. Because if you do what you want, which is the bare minimum, your kids will eventually come to resent you and not want to spend time with you. And there is going to come a day when you suddenly want a family around you who cares about you. And you're going to be mad when your kids are like "Sorry, Dad, I'm so busy with work. Happy birthday though." Even though this is literally what you did to them and your wife for decades. This is precisely what all those things she's trying to get you to do is designed to prevent, but you are too shortsighted to realize this.

You will wind up angry and alone and wondering why your family has abandoned you, and I'm here to tell you that it's because you refused to give a damn about the happiness of your wife or children so they stopped giving a damn about yours.

This is a thread about optional tasks. It’s clear many of the posters here are unable to decide what’s important and prioritize.

The only person who ends up angry is the person who cannot prioritize and thinks her whole family should do the things she thinks is important.
-a woman who doesn’t engage in fake work

Is celebrating the holidays optional when you have kids?

No, of course it’s not optional. Many PPs are just saying that a lot of moms totally overdo it for the holidays. And they expect everyone else (usually the dad) to be on board with doing the excessive, pointless holiday tasks.

I’m in my 50s, and my parents didn’t make a big deal about holidays or birthdays. It completely sucked for me as a kid. People on this thread who are downplaying holidays and birthdays are in denial or are just completely clueless crappy parents.

I think they are imagining that we are all Monica and trying to make Chandler participate in planning the perfect Christmas.
But some of us are Pheobe and trying to figure out how to make our kids feel normal while they are having a completely different childhood than we did.
And some of us are Rachel and a little spoiled and have no idea how to make all of us happen.
Sure, the Monica’s need to relax. But the Pheobe and Rachel’s need Paul Rudd and Ross to help out!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And, to be clear, she can do the same. Nobody's forcing her to make a "magical" holiday experience. If you don't enjoy it, stop.

I mean, these things are important, to a degree.

But if I'm operating under extreme resentment and loathing because my spouse cannot or will not participate in the child's lives, I'm editing my mental load and protecting my mental health.

Millions of people live perfectly fine lives without ever celebrating Christmas at all, ever. This shit is entirely optional.

That’s total bullsh*t. Depriving your kid of cultural celebrations isn’t abuse per se but it’s really bad parenting. This is obviously just a cope to claim that traditional women’s work has no value.

So people who don't care about Christmas are abusers? You're mental. Get help.

Women's work has value so they should limit how often that value gets tapped without compensation or reciprocation. If you can't figure out how to do that without "depriving your kid of cultural celebrations" you shouldn't have had kids. The radio plays free Christmas music, every mall has a santa, holiday lights are probably all over your neighborhood and walking is free. You don't have to pay money or time to celebrate the holiday, should you choose.

It's "total bullsh*t" that this thread is this long and some of y'all still can't figure this out for your allegedly-grown selves, let alone the children you love and overprotect so damned much. God help their future spouses!

All of those things you listed take time. And you probably should not have kids if you don’t want to create a happy home for them.

So you want to create a happy home? Like this is a choice you make because you want it, not a burden thrust on you?

I want men to take equal responsibility to create a happy home and not freeload on women and then if called on it, claim that the only thing kids need is food and water.

Who gets to decide when is the home happy?
Women just can't grasp how little it actually takes to make a man happy. They need about 3 things and women need about 1,000. And women can't understand why men don't just jump and complete 500 chores that he doesn't care about or even think to do because happiness was achieved 997 chores ago

What about the kids?

450 of those chores are for the kids. You misinterpret them as being for your wife's "happiness" when she's really just trying to help you fulfill your obligation as a dad.

AND because she has the ability to engage in planning a long term thinking, she also understand that a lot of what she's trying to get you to do is actually essential to your longterm happiness. Because if you do what you want, which is the bare minimum, your kids will eventually come to resent you and not want to spend time with you. And there is going to come a day when you suddenly want a family around you who cares about you. And you're going to be mad when your kids are like "Sorry, Dad, I'm so busy with work. Happy birthday though." Even though this is literally what you did to them and your wife for decades. This is precisely what all those things she's trying to get you to do is designed to prevent, but you are too shortsighted to realize this.

You will wind up angry and alone and wondering why your family has abandoned you, and I'm here to tell you that it's because you refused to give a damn about the happiness of your wife or children so they stopped giving a damn about yours.

This is a thread about optional tasks. It’s clear many of the posters here are unable to decide what’s important and prioritize.

The only person who ends up angry is the person who cannot prioritize and thinks her whole family should do the things she thinks is important.
-a woman who doesn’t engage in fake work

Is celebrating the holidays optional when you have kids?

Holidays, real vacations, sports, and experiences were not done at my aspergers in law’s home. Neither were birthday cakes.

Guess how they all turned out!?

Just fine?

1 divorced narc son with no friends or relationship w his kids. He works. No hobbies or friends.

1 unemployed single 42 yo son still living with them. Churns through hobbies and friends.

The 70-something parents have no friends, jsut cook, cook, read books, dont talk to each other much, and watch two movies a day for the last 5 decades.

Oh wow. Why would you marry someone like your ex DH and his loser family?

Because that is the best she could do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And, to be clear, she can do the same. Nobody's forcing her to make a "magical" holiday experience. If you don't enjoy it, stop.

I mean, these things are important, to a degree.

But if I'm operating under extreme resentment and loathing because my spouse cannot or will not participate in the child's lives, I'm editing my mental load and protecting my mental health.

Millions of people live perfectly fine lives without ever celebrating Christmas at all, ever. This shit is entirely optional.

That’s total bullsh*t. Depriving your kid of cultural celebrations isn’t abuse per se but it’s really bad parenting. This is obviously just a cope to claim that traditional women’s work has no value.

So people who don't care about Christmas are abusers? You're mental. Get help.

Women's work has value so they should limit how often that value gets tapped without compensation or reciprocation. If you can't figure out how to do that without "depriving your kid of cultural celebrations" you shouldn't have had kids. The radio plays free Christmas music, every mall has a santa, holiday lights are probably all over your neighborhood and walking is free. You don't have to pay money or time to celebrate the holiday, should you choose.

It's "total bullsh*t" that this thread is this long and some of y'all still can't figure this out for your allegedly-grown selves, let alone the children you love and overprotect so damned much. God help their future spouses!

All of those things you listed take time. And you probably should not have kids if you don’t want to create a happy home for them.

So you want to create a happy home? Like this is a choice you make because you want it, not a burden thrust on you?

I want men to take equal responsibility to create a happy home and not freeload on women and then if called on it, claim that the only thing kids need is food and water.

Who gets to decide when is the home happy?
Women just can't grasp how little it actually takes to make a man happy. They need about 3 things and women need about 1,000. And women can't understand why men don't just jump and complete 500 chores that he doesn't care about or even think to do because happiness was achieved 997 chores ago

What about the kids?

450 of those chores are for the kids. You misinterpret them as being for your wife's "happiness" when she's really just trying to help you fulfill your obligation as a dad.

AND because she has the ability to engage in planning a long term thinking, she also understand that a lot of what she's trying to get you to do is actually essential to your longterm happiness. Because if you do what you want, which is the bare minimum, your kids will eventually come to resent you and not want to spend time with you. And there is going to come a day when you suddenly want a family around you who cares about you. And you're going to be mad when your kids are like "Sorry, Dad, I'm so busy with work. Happy birthday though." Even though this is literally what you did to them and your wife for decades. This is precisely what all those things she's trying to get you to do is designed to prevent, but you are too shortsighted to realize this.

You will wind up angry and alone and wondering why your family has abandoned you, and I'm here to tell you that it's because you refused to give a damn about the happiness of your wife or children so they stopped giving a damn about yours.

This is a thread about optional tasks. It’s clear many of the posters here are unable to decide what’s important and prioritize.

The only person who ends up angry is the person who cannot prioritize and thinks her whole family should do the things she thinks is important.
-a woman who doesn’t engage in fake work

Is celebrating the holidays optional when you have kids?

Holidays, real vacations, sports, and experiences were not done at my aspergers in law’s home. Neither were birthday cakes.

Guess how they all turned out!?

Just fine?

+1. It was good enough for the son to find and hold a job, find a wife, and have some children.

Masking works until it doesn’t!

So everyone in that family fell apart after PP married into that family. Interesting...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

Why do you insist on missing the entire point? You’re in fact describing a Christmas celebration that in fact takes some thought and planning that a parent has to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

This post sounds like mental illness. What on earth?

+1! Figure out what "celebrating Christmas" means to you. If it means spending 10,000 hours decorating and buying gifts, and you don't have 10,000 hours to spend, you'll either need to take time from other things, outsource, or not spend 10,000 hours on Christmas. This isn't rocket science. My parents had demanding jobs and we had no other family, so they spend 2 hours decorating and gave my sibling and I one gift each, but that still counted as Christmas because we were celebrating together.

Why do you insist on missing the entire point? You’re in fact describing a Christmas celebration that in fact takes some thought and planning that a parent has to do.

They also described BOTH of their parents being involved. It wasn’t 100% left to their mom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And, to be clear, she can do the same. Nobody's forcing her to make a "magical" holiday experience. If you don't enjoy it, stop.

I mean, these things are important, to a degree.

But if I'm operating under extreme resentment and loathing because my spouse cannot or will not participate in the child's lives, I'm editing my mental load and protecting my mental health.

Millions of people live perfectly fine lives without ever celebrating Christmas at all, ever. This shit is entirely optional.

That’s total bullsh*t. Depriving your kid of cultural celebrations isn’t abuse per se but it’s really bad parenting. This is obviously just a cope to claim that traditional women’s work has no value.

So people who don't care about Christmas are abusers? You're mental. Get help.

Women's work has value so they should limit how often that value gets tapped without compensation or reciprocation. If you can't figure out how to do that without "depriving your kid of cultural celebrations" you shouldn't have had kids. The radio plays free Christmas music, every mall has a santa, holiday lights are probably all over your neighborhood and walking is free. You don't have to pay money or time to celebrate the holiday, should you choose.

It's "total bullsh*t" that this thread is this long and some of y'all still can't figure this out for your allegedly-grown selves, let alone the children you love and overprotect so damned much. God help their future spouses!

All of those things you listed take time. And you probably should not have kids if you don’t want to create a happy home for them.

So you want to create a happy home? Like this is a choice you make because you want it, not a burden thrust on you?

I want men to take equal responsibility to create a happy home and not freeload on women and then if called on it, claim that the only thing kids need is food and water.

Who gets to decide when is the home happy?
Women just can't grasp how little it actually takes to make a man happy. They need about 3 things and women need about 1,000. And women can't understand why men don't just jump and complete 500 chores that he doesn't care about or even think to do because happiness was achieved 997 chores ago

What about the kids?

450 of those chores are for the kids. You misinterpret them as being for your wife's "happiness" when she's really just trying to help you fulfill your obligation as a dad.

AND because she has the ability to engage in planning a long term thinking, she also understand that a lot of what she's trying to get you to do is actually essential to your longterm happiness. Because if you do what you want, which is the bare minimum, your kids will eventually come to resent you and not want to spend time with you. And there is going to come a day when you suddenly want a family around you who cares about you. And you're going to be mad when your kids are like "Sorry, Dad, I'm so busy with work. Happy birthday though." Even though this is literally what you did to them and your wife for decades. This is precisely what all those things she's trying to get you to do is designed to prevent, but you are too shortsighted to realize this.

You will wind up angry and alone and wondering why your family has abandoned you, and I'm here to tell you that it's because you refused to give a damn about the happiness of your wife or children so they stopped giving a damn about yours.

This is a thread about optional tasks. It’s clear many of the posters here are unable to decide what’s important and prioritize.

The only person who ends up angry is the person who cannot prioritize and thinks her whole family should do the things she thinks is important.
-a woman who doesn’t engage in fake work

Is celebrating the holidays optional when you have kids?

If you get angry about it, it affects your mental health, or it affects your marriage, then yes it’s optional.

Sorry but are you pretending that “not doing the holidays” is the key problem or the fact that your life partner doesn’t participate in any aspect of family life, including holidays, is the problem?

I’d argue the latter is the root driver of ALL the marital problems. Not doing holidays is just another symptom of having a ssshitty spouse who dumps everything on the functional spouse who actually cares about things.

Are we now firmly in the part of the discussion where we have moved from optional activities to where your spouse does absolutely nothing for your children or household? Why are you married to such a dud? Accept or divorce. What else is there?

Holidays and birthdays are not actually optional. My exDH did a lot of sh*t but one of the worst was totally blowing off one of DC’s birthdays. I’ll always remember celebrating it alone in a Barnes and Noble with him. Luckily he was too young to notice. It was his 2nd birthday and we did a big party for his 1st so I wanted to be more low key. Guess exDH felt like that meant nothing at all.

A second birthday is the definition of optional. It’s for you, not the child.

+1

And yes. We’ve returned to “I’m not interested in solutions for myself or anyone else because [insert details about my failed marriage here]”

I think you aren’t getting the picture. His dad was MIA the day of his birthday and didn’t come home until after bedtime. It’s not normal to ghost your child on their birthday.

The child is 2 years old. Do you want us to believe the father was completely normal 3 years ago? People marry duds and they are surprised their husbands are still duds even a couple years later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And, to be clear, she can do the same. Nobody's forcing her to make a "magical" holiday experience. If you don't enjoy it, stop.

I mean, these things are important, to a degree.

But if I'm operating under extreme resentment and loathing because my spouse cannot or will not participate in the child's lives, I'm editing my mental load and protecting my mental health.

Millions of people live perfectly fine lives without ever celebrating Christmas at all, ever. This shit is entirely optional.

That’s total bullsh*t. Depriving your kid of cultural celebrations isn’t abuse per se but it’s really bad parenting. This is obviously just a cope to claim that traditional women’s work has no value.

So people who don't care about Christmas are abusers? You're mental. Get help.

Women's work has value so they should limit how often that value gets tapped without compensation or reciprocation. If you can't figure out how to do that without "depriving your kid of cultural celebrations" you shouldn't have had kids. The radio plays free Christmas music, every mall has a santa, holiday lights are probably all over your neighborhood and walking is free. You don't have to pay money or time to celebrate the holiday, should you choose.

It's "total bullsh*t" that this thread is this long and some of y'all still can't figure this out for your allegedly-grown selves, let alone the children you love and overprotect so damned much. God help their future spouses!

All of those things you listed take time. And you probably should not have kids if you don’t want to create a happy home for them.

So you want to create a happy home? Like this is a choice you make because you want it, not a burden thrust on you?

I want men to take equal responsibility to create a happy home and not freeload on women and then if called on it, claim that the only thing kids need is food and water.

Who gets to decide when is the home happy?
Women just can't grasp how little it actually takes to make a man happy. They need about 3 things and women need about 1,000. And women can't understand why men don't just jump and complete 500 chores that he doesn't care about or even think to do because happiness was achieved 997 chores ago

What about the kids?

450 of those chores are for the kids. You misinterpret them as being for your wife's "happiness" when she's really just trying to help you fulfill your obligation as a dad.

AND because she has the ability to engage in planning a long term thinking, she also understand that a lot of what she's trying to get you to do is actually essential to your longterm happiness. Because if you do what you want, which is the bare minimum, your kids will eventually come to resent you and not want to spend time with you. And there is going to come a day when you suddenly want a family around you who cares about you. And you're going to be mad when your kids are like "Sorry, Dad, I'm so busy with work. Happy birthday though." Even though this is literally what you did to them and your wife for decades. This is precisely what all those things she's trying to get you to do is designed to prevent, but you are too shortsighted to realize this.

You will wind up angry and alone and wondering why your family has abandoned you, and I'm here to tell you that it's because you refused to give a damn about the happiness of your wife or children so they stopped giving a damn about yours.

This is a thread about optional tasks. It’s clear many of the posters here are unable to decide what’s important and prioritize.

The only person who ends up angry is the person who cannot prioritize and thinks her whole family should do the things she thinks is important.
-a woman who doesn’t engage in fake work

Is celebrating the holidays optional when you have kids?

No, of course it’s not optional. Many PPs are just saying that a lot of moms totally overdo it for the holidays. And they expect everyone else (usually the dad) to be on board with doing the excessive, pointless holiday tasks.

I’m in my 50s, and my parents didn’t make a big deal about holidays or birthdays. It completely sucked for me as a kid. People on this thread who are downplaying holidays and birthdays are in denial or are just completely clueless crappy parents.

Your experience is valid, but not universal. Growing up, we only celebrated the big birthdays: 3, 5, 10. For the other birthdays, they gave us money from about age 8 and bought a cake and sang Happy Birthday. By 12, if you wanted friends over for your birthday, you took the lead and helped organize. My 4 siblings and I thought it was great. Many of my kids' friends do movie night, pizza and popcorn with about 6 friends at home.

My siblings and I still think birthdays are important to the extent that we never forget to call each other and say Happy Birthday. This is what we cherish, not the parties.

I mean, you just described a family with some great birthday traditions. The “big birthday” aspect is quirky but also part of being in a big family with its own traditions. Nobody is saying that it has to be a certain way.

Yes, I believe people are saying it has to be a certain way - a big way with lots of fanfare. That’s the whole point the “optional” people are making. Pick a few things you like and can handle. But since this is DCUM, people want to post extremes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The posters suggesting to not not barely celebrate Christmas or birthdays aren’t very helpful.

You’re also not taking the rest of life into consideration. I can live in a $2 million dollar house, employ a cleaning lady, work a demanding job, exercise etc - but I’m going to drop the ball on Christmas and/or a birthday for my mental health?

Someone who is not celebrating Christmas for their child (assuming you’re Christian) is practically homeless or suffering from severe mental illness.

Oh no! What will the neighbors say?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And, to be clear, she can do the same. Nobody's forcing her to make a "magical" holiday experience. If you don't enjoy it, stop.

I mean, these things are important, to a degree.

But if I'm operating under extreme resentment and loathing because my spouse cannot or will not participate in the child's lives, I'm editing my mental load and protecting my mental health.

Millions of people live perfectly fine lives without ever celebrating Christmas at all, ever. This shit is entirely optional.

That’s total bullsh*t. Depriving your kid of cultural celebrations isn’t abuse per se but it’s really bad parenting. This is obviously just a cope to claim that traditional women’s work has no value.

So people who don't care about Christmas are abusers? You're mental. Get help.

Women's work has value so they should limit how often that value gets tapped without compensation or reciprocation. If you can't figure out how to do that without "depriving your kid of cultural celebrations" you shouldn't have had kids. The radio plays free Christmas music, every mall has a santa, holiday lights are probably all over your neighborhood and walking is free. You don't have to pay money or time to celebrate the holiday, should you choose.

It's "total bullsh*t" that this thread is this long and some of y'all still can't figure this out for your allegedly-grown selves, let alone the children you love and overprotect so damned much. God help their future spouses!

All of those things you listed take time. And you probably should not have kids if you don’t want to create a happy home for them.

So you want to create a happy home? Like this is a choice you make because you want it, not a burden thrust on you?

I want men to take equal responsibility to create a happy home and not freeload on women and then if called on it, claim that the only thing kids need is food and water.

Who gets to decide when is the home happy?
Women just can't grasp how little it actually takes to make a man happy. They need about 3 things and women need about 1,000. And women can't understand why men don't just jump and complete 500 chores that he doesn't care about or even think to do because happiness was achieved 997 chores ago

What about the kids?

450 of those chores are for the kids. You misinterpret them as being for your wife's "happiness" when she's really just trying to help you fulfill your obligation as a dad.

AND because she has the ability to engage in planning a long term thinking, she also understand that a lot of what she's trying to get you to do is actually essential to your longterm happiness. Because if you do what you want, which is the bare minimum, your kids will eventually come to resent you and not want to spend time with you. And there is going to come a day when you suddenly want a family around you who cares about you. And you're going to be mad when your kids are like "Sorry, Dad, I'm so busy with work. Happy birthday though." Even though this is literally what you did to them and your wife for decades. This is precisely what all those things she's trying to get you to do is designed to prevent, but you are too shortsighted to realize this.

You will wind up angry and alone and wondering why your family has abandoned you, and I'm here to tell you that it's because you refused to give a damn about the happiness of your wife or children so they stopped giving a damn about yours.

This is a thread about optional tasks. It’s clear many of the posters here are unable to decide what’s important and prioritize.

The only person who ends up angry is the person who cannot prioritize and thinks her whole family should do the things she thinks is important.
-a woman who doesn’t engage in fake work

Is celebrating the holidays optional when you have kids?

Holidays, real vacations, sports, and experiences were not done at my aspergers in law’s home. Neither were birthday cakes.

Guess how they all turned out!?

Just fine?

1 divorced narc son with no friends or relationship w his kids. He works. No hobbies or friends.

1 unemployed single 42 yo son still living with them. Churns through hobbies and friends.

The 70-something parents have no friends, jsut cook, cook, read books, dont talk to each other much, and watch two movies a day for the last 5 decades.

Oh wow. Why would you marry someone like your ex DH and his loser family?

They lived abroad and out on a show once a year when I visited.

Met their son in Ivy grad school, gave him the benefit of the doubt too many times, he said he wanted the whole shebang, got married, had kids and he shut down. By then I saw his brother had untreated mental issues and so did his father and likely mother.
He himself got a neuropsych test, has several Dxs, refuses to treat them. I got the kids old enough to stick up for themselves and we divorced. He works a lot so I get the kids more than 90%.

Everyone is better off. Including him with less non-work adult responsibilities and pressures.

It doesn’t sound like you were very intelligent or had good judgment when you were dating. When you tell stories like that your husband and in-laws, you show yourself to be a fool. Your husband was born into that, but you chose that willingly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And, to be clear, she can do the same. Nobody's forcing her to make a "magical" holiday experience. If you don't enjoy it, stop.

I mean, these things are important, to a degree.

But if I'm operating under extreme resentment and loathing because my spouse cannot or will not participate in the child's lives, I'm editing my mental load and protecting my mental health.

Millions of people live perfectly fine lives without ever celebrating Christmas at all, ever. This shit is entirely optional.

That’s total bullsh*t. Depriving your kid of cultural celebrations isn’t abuse per se but it’s really bad parenting. This is obviously just a cope to claim that traditional women’s work has no value.

So people who don't care about Christmas are abusers? You're mental. Get help.

Women's work has value so they should limit how often that value gets tapped without compensation or reciprocation. If you can't figure out how to do that without "depriving your kid of cultural celebrations" you shouldn't have had kids. The radio plays free Christmas music, every mall has a santa, holiday lights are probably all over your neighborhood and walking is free. You don't have to pay money or time to celebrate the holiday, should you choose.

It's "total bullsh*t" that this thread is this long and some of y'all still can't figure this out for your allegedly-grown selves, let alone the children you love and overprotect so damned much. God help their future spouses!

All of those things you listed take time. And you probably should not have kids if you don’t want to create a happy home for them.

So you want to create a happy home? Like this is a choice you make because you want it, not a burden thrust on you?

I want men to take equal responsibility to create a happy home and not freeload on women and then if called on it, claim that the only thing kids need is food and water.

Who gets to decide when is the home happy?
Women just can't grasp how little it actually takes to make a man happy. They need about 3 things and women need about 1,000. And women can't understand why men don't just jump and complete 500 chores that he doesn't care about or even think to do because happiness was achieved 997 chores ago

What about the kids?

450 of those chores are for the kids. You misinterpret them as being for your wife's "happiness" when she's really just trying to help you fulfill your obligation as a dad.

AND because she has the ability to engage in planning a long term thinking, she also understand that a lot of what she's trying to get you to do is actually essential to your longterm happiness. Because if you do what you want, which is the bare minimum, your kids will eventually come to resent you and not want to spend time with you. And there is going to come a day when you suddenly want a family around you who cares about you. And you're going to be mad when your kids are like "Sorry, Dad, I'm so busy with work. Happy birthday though." Even though this is literally what you did to them and your wife for decades. This is precisely what all those things she's trying to get you to do is designed to prevent, but you are too shortsighted to realize this.

You will wind up angry and alone and wondering why your family has abandoned you, and I'm here to tell you that it's because you refused to give a damn about the happiness of your wife or children so they stopped giving a damn about yours.

This is a thread about optional tasks. It’s clear many of the posters here are unable to decide what’s important and prioritize.

The only person who ends up angry is the person who cannot prioritize and thinks her whole family should do the things she thinks is important.
-a woman who doesn’t engage in fake work

Is celebrating the holidays optional when you have kids?

No, of course it’s not optional. Many PPs are just saying that a lot of moms totally overdo it for the holidays. And they expect everyone else (usually the dad) to be on board with doing the excessive, pointless holiday tasks.

I’m in my 50s, and my parents didn’t make a big deal about holidays or birthdays. It completely sucked for me as a kid. People on this thread who are downplaying holidays and birthdays are in denial or are just completely clueless crappy parents.

I think they are imagining that we are all Monica and trying to make Chandler participate in planning the perfect Christmas.
But some of us are Pheobe and trying to figure out how to make our kids feel normal while they are having a completely different childhood than we did.
And some of us are Rachel and a little spoiled and have no idea how to make all of us happen.
Sure, the Monica’s need to relax. But the Pheobe and Rachel’s need Paul Rudd and Ross to help out!!

None of you complaining about your husbands are Phoebe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And, to be clear, she can do the same. Nobody's forcing her to make a "magical" holiday experience. If you don't enjoy it, stop.

I mean, these things are important, to a degree.

But if I'm operating under extreme resentment and loathing because my spouse cannot or will not participate in the child's lives, I'm editing my mental load and protecting my mental health.

Millions of people live perfectly fine lives without ever celebrating Christmas at all, ever. This shit is entirely optional.

That’s total bullsh*t. Depriving your kid of cultural celebrations isn’t abuse per se but it’s really bad parenting. This is obviously just a cope to claim that traditional women’s work has no value.

So people who don't care about Christmas are abusers? You're mental. Get help.

Women's work has value so they should limit how often that value gets tapped without compensation or reciprocation. If you can't figure out how to do that without "depriving your kid of cultural celebrations" you shouldn't have had kids. The radio plays free Christmas music, every mall has a santa, holiday lights are probably all over your neighborhood and walking is free. You don't have to pay money or time to celebrate the holiday, should you choose.

It's "total bullsh*t" that this thread is this long and some of y'all still can't figure this out for your allegedly-grown selves, let alone the children you love and overprotect so damned much. God help their future spouses!

All of those things you listed take time. And you probably should not have kids if you don’t want to create a happy home for them.

So you want to create a happy home? Like this is a choice you make because you want it, not a burden thrust on you?

I want men to take equal responsibility to create a happy home and not freeload on women and then if called on it, claim that the only thing kids need is food and water.

Who gets to decide when is the home happy?
Women just can't grasp how little it actually takes to make a man happy. They need about 3 things and women need about 1,000. And women can't understand why men don't just jump and complete 500 chores that he doesn't care about or even think to do because happiness was achieved 997 chores ago

What about the kids?

450 of those chores are for the kids. You misinterpret them as being for your wife's "happiness" when she's really just trying to help you fulfill your obligation as a dad.

AND because she has the ability to engage in planning a long term thinking, she also understand that a lot of what she's trying to get you to do is actually essential to your longterm happiness. Because if you do what you want, which is the bare minimum, your kids will eventually come to resent you and not want to spend time with you. And there is going to come a day when you suddenly want a family around you who cares about you. And you're going to be mad when your kids are like "Sorry, Dad, I'm so busy with work. Happy birthday though." Even though this is literally what you did to them and your wife for decades. This is precisely what all those things she's trying to get you to do is designed to prevent, but you are too shortsighted to realize this.

You will wind up angry and alone and wondering why your family has abandoned you, and I'm here to tell you that it's because you refused to give a damn about the happiness of your wife or children so they stopped giving a damn about yours.

This is a thread about optional tasks. It’s clear many of the posters here are unable to decide what’s important and prioritize.

The only person who ends up angry is the person who cannot prioritize and thinks her whole family should do the things she thinks is important.
-a woman who doesn’t engage in fake work

Is celebrating the holidays optional when you have kids?

Holidays, real vacations, sports, and experiences were not done at my aspergers in law’s home. Neither were birthday cakes.

Guess how they all turned out!?

Just fine?

+1. It was good enough for the son to find and hold a job, find a wife, and have some children.

Masking works until it doesn’t!

So everyone in that family fell apart after PP married into that family. Interesting...

Much more likely than one person mysteriously destabilizing an entire established family is one person shedding light on the longstanding dysfunction(s) everyone used to think were just normal family things.

Healthy groups shun dangerous outsiders. Unhealthy groups blame outsiders for pointing out their shit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And, to be clear, she can do the same. Nobody's forcing her to make a "magical" holiday experience. If you don't enjoy it, stop.

I mean, these things are important, to a degree.

But if I'm operating under extreme resentment and loathing because my spouse cannot or will not participate in the child's lives, I'm editing my mental load and protecting my mental health.

Millions of people live perfectly fine lives without ever celebrating Christmas at all, ever. This shit is entirely optional.

That’s total bullsh*t. Depriving your kid of cultural celebrations isn’t abuse per se but it’s really bad parenting. This is obviously just a cope to claim that traditional women’s work has no value.

So people who don't care about Christmas are abusers? You're mental. Get help.

Women's work has value so they should limit how often that value gets tapped without compensation or reciprocation. If you can't figure out how to do that without "depriving your kid of cultural celebrations" you shouldn't have had kids. The radio plays free Christmas music, every mall has a santa, holiday lights are probably all over your neighborhood and walking is free. You don't have to pay money or time to celebrate the holiday, should you choose.

It's "total bullsh*t" that this thread is this long and some of y'all still can't figure this out for your allegedly-grown selves, let alone the children you love and overprotect so damned much. God help their future spouses!

All of those things you listed take time. And you probably should not have kids if you don’t want to create a happy home for them.

So you want to create a happy home? Like this is a choice you make because you want it, not a burden thrust on you?

I want men to take equal responsibility to create a happy home and not freeload on women and then if called on it, claim that the only thing kids need is food and water.

Who gets to decide when is the home happy?
Women just can't grasp how little it actually takes to make a man happy. They need about 3 things and women need about 1,000. And women can't understand why men don't just jump and complete 500 chores that he doesn't care about or even think to do because happiness was achieved 997 chores ago

What about the kids?

450 of those chores are for the kids. You misinterpret them as being for your wife's "happiness" when she's really just trying to help you fulfill your obligation as a dad.

AND because she has the ability to engage in planning a long term thinking, she also understand that a lot of what she's trying to get you to do is actually essential to your longterm happiness. Because if you do what you want, which is the bare minimum, your kids will eventually come to resent you and not want to spend time with you. And there is going to come a day when you suddenly want a family around you who cares about you. And you're going to be mad when your kids are like "Sorry, Dad, I'm so busy with work. Happy birthday though." Even though this is literally what you did to them and your wife for decades. This is precisely what all those things she's trying to get you to do is designed to prevent, but you are too shortsighted to realize this.

You will wind up angry and alone and wondering why your family has abandoned you, and I'm here to tell you that it's because you refused to give a damn about the happiness of your wife or children so they stopped giving a damn about yours.

This is a thread about optional tasks. It’s clear many of the posters here are unable to decide what’s important and prioritize.

The only person who ends up angry is the person who cannot prioritize and thinks her whole family should do the things she thinks is important.
-a woman who doesn’t engage in fake work

Is celebrating the holidays optional when you have kids?

Holidays, real vacations, sports, and experiences were not done at my aspergers in law’s home. Neither were birthday cakes.

Guess how they all turned out!?

Just fine?

+1. It was good enough for the son to find and hold a job, find a wife, and have some children.

Masking works until it doesn’t!

So everyone in that family fell apart after PP married into that family. Interesting...

Much more likely than one person mysteriously destabilizing an entire established family is one person shedding light on the longstanding dysfunction(s) everyone used to think were just normal family things.

Healthy groups shun dangerous outsiders. Unhealthy groups blame outsiders for pointing out their shit.

Only unhealthy outsiders bind themselves willingly to unhealthy people and groups.