Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
So because some men aren't abiding by islamic guidelines of modesty, muslim women should give up modesty too? Is that your contention?

I'm saying that most Muslims are not modest, period. Covering skin is not all there is to modesty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Hair is not a gender marker? For thousands of years women have worn their hair much longer than men and it has always been a gender identifier.
"What's good for the goose is good for the gander" is typical western perspective. Problem is, it isn't in Islam. Islam says men and women ARE different. As such, there will be some differences in their rights and privileges they are afforded by God. A great many Muslim women accept this. Maybe you simply need to come to terms with this.

Ugh. We've gone over this point. Just because men and women are biologically different does not justify placing onerous conditions on women or limiting their dress to such a degree that no one can see their hair, calves, etc. No one on this thread has established any sort of convincing argument that the hijab is somehow needed due to the differences between men and women.

But if that is what you say Islam is, I guess that is what Islam is. A religion that places rigid and unjustifiable limitations on women.

No one in this thread has? But the majority of the billion Muslims have established exactly that. That is why we have a 40 page thread, no? You and your handful of islamophobes just can not accept the view of most Muslims.

Muslims can do whatever they want. If you want to convince us something is legitimate or makes sense, that is another story. The entire world used to treat women as property, the entire world used to prohibit women from voting and working etc. Just because a billion people do something doesn't make it right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

To be fair, there has also been plenty of "women who don't wear hajibs are promiscuous, cause STDs and live loose sexual lives" posts along with a few "atheletic women who dress in clothing appropriate for their sports (shorts, swimsuits, etc) are doing so to tempt men with and to sexualize their bare legs" posts throught at least the latter part of this thread.

That didn't really start until after 30+ pages of "hijabis are dumb, oppressed, brainwashed, unworthy of respect, no one would do that voluntarily and if you do, I have no respect for them". And my favorite: "What should I tell my DAUGHTER?" Tell her whatever you want, lady, no one cares.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Hair is not a gender marker? For thousands of years women have worn their hair much longer than men and it has always been a gender identifier.
"What's good for the goose is good for the gander" is typical western perspective. Problem is, it isn't in Islam. Islam says men and women ARE different. As such, there will be some differences in their rights and privileges they are afforded by God. A great many Muslim women accept this. Maybe you simply need to come to terms with this.

Ugh. We've gone over this point. Just because men and women are biologically different does not justify placing onerous conditions on women or limiting their dress to such a degree that no one can see their hair, calves, etc. No one on this thread has established any sort of convincing argument that the hijab is somehow needed due to the differences between men and women.

But if that is what you say Islam is, I guess that is what Islam is. A religion that places rigid and unjustifiable limitations on women.

You've got that backwards. No one set out to convince you. If you don't believe the hijab is needed, then guess what, don't wear one. If you think Islam places rigid and unjustifiable limitations on women, then guess what, don't be a Muslim. You are starting from the position of "I need to be convinced hijab is a good idea", and the truth is that no one cares what you believe. People who want to cover will cover. The opinion of a random DCUM chick is several universes away from relevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The Quran's mandate to lower one's gaze applied to both men and women. Since there is also a mandate to cover adornments, ornaments, and beauty, the hijab helps women to meet this requirement. Hair may indeed be worn to impress bosses or colleagues or peers, or it may be used to seduce. The point is that it not be used to make any impression or point because it distracts us and others from God and encourages a focus on egotistical interests. It needn't be used to seduce, but in many cases it has been. It suffices that it is often used in ways that take us farther away from God. This is often true with many physical aspects of our body. A very athletic woman who desires to wear shorts to show off her athletic legs, only to be admired by her workout group is still placing importance on egotistical interests based on appearance or beauty. This is still not modesty.

Islam never purported to advance linear equality between men and women. Islam advances justice between men and women to promote a moral society. Men ARE different from women. As such, their rights and responsibilities will differ. Western society deems this shameful because it can only see justice as based on linear equality. One can not evaluate Islamic guidelines and law on western ideology; they are based on entirely different principles.

I don't understand why a woman's hair is "distracting" but a man's hair is not. What if she cuts it short like a man?

Men often cut their hair in "distracting" fashions. You will tell me that many men get a standard cut. And I will answer that many men don't get the standard cut (my son even cares about where he gets his standard cut). Going further, isn't any type of men's cut about vanity, and the least "egotistical" route would be for men to grow their hair out and forswear combs? Where do you draw the line? You can't. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander: if all women have to cover because some women style their hair, then all men should have to cover too, following the same principles of prevention.

One could argue that, back in Arabia in 700AD, men wore turbans, thereby preventing men's hair from "distracting" anybody. But following those lines of argument, things got easier for men and harder for women.

What about the rest of that verse in the Quran, which says not to show adornments "except that which normally show"? Doesn't hair normally show? Whose standards of hair are the reference point here? Back in 700AD, many women didn't veil, particularly women doing manual labor.

Who knows, but maybe it stems from the fact that women wear their hair long and do more to beautify their hair than men do. Generally speaking. Lets not bring up every woman who doesn't fit this generality or every man who doesn't either. We are speaking in general terms. Why are women's breasts required to be covered up but not mens?

Almost every man understands that his hair sends a message. That message might be "company man" or "I'm cool" or "I'm edgy" or "my grey-haired ponytail identifies me as a cool but aging dude" or even my man-bun and beard identify me as a hipster with all the hipster values you know that entails." Please!

Show me a man who doesn't care how his hair looks, whether conservative or hipster man-bun, and that's a rare bird indeed. You talk about "using" hair as manifestations of egotism or even to attract members of the other sex, but men are equally guilty.

Breasts are reproductive and they are also clear gender markers.

Hair is not a gender marker? For thousands of years women have worn their hair much longer than men and it has always been a gender identifier.
"What's good for the goose is good for the gander" is typical western perspective. Problem is, it isn't in Islam. Islam says men and women ARE different. As such, there will be some differences in their rights and privileges they are afforded by God. A great many Muslim women accept this. Maybe you simply need to come to terms with this.

I think most of us have come to terms with hijab and will even defend your right to veil. However, we can still wonder and ask questions here about standards of modesty that ask women to enforce men's purity, and that don't also require modesty in other aspects of living such as cars, houses, jewelry, et cetera. These questions have been raised, but the answers here have been unsatisfactory (to many here, it would seem) and in fact your answers have digressed into Western women's athletic gear and STDs. That's why you're seeing pushback. I suppose you, too, will need to come to terms with this.

You're giving her "pushback" because you don't really want to be convinced, you have your position, and you're standing by it. That's fine, but then don't pretend there's an answer in the world that could have satisfied you. You're acting like a five-year old who keeps getting more and more reasons why he can't have ice cream before dinner only to keep saying "but whyyyyy? whyyyyyy? you haven't convinced me!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Hair is not a gender marker? For thousands of years women have worn their hair much longer than men and it has always been a gender identifier.
"What's good for the goose is good for the gander" is typical western perspective. Problem is, it isn't in Islam. Islam says men and women ARE different. As such, there will be some differences in their rights and privileges they are afforded by God. A great many Muslim women accept this. Maybe you simply need to come to terms with this.

Ugh. We've gone over this point. Just because men and women are biologically different does not justify placing onerous conditions on women or limiting their dress to such a degree that no one can see their hair, calves, etc. No one on this thread has established any sort of convincing argument that the hijab is somehow needed due to the differences between men and women.

But if that is what you say Islam is, I guess that is what Islam is. A religion that places rigid and unjustifiable limitations on women.

You've got that backwards. No one set out to convince you. If you don't believe the hijab is needed, then guess what, don't wear one. If you think Islam places rigid and unjustifiable limitations on women, then guess what, don't be a Muslim. You are starting from the position of "I need to be convinced hijab is a good idea", and the truth is that no one cares what you believe. People who want to cover will cover. The opinion of a random DCUM chick is several universes away from relevant.

If someone's opinion is not relevant, why are you even responding to it? Why do you care enough to post?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Hair is not a gender marker? For thousands of years women have worn their hair much longer than men and it has always been a gender identifier.
"What's good for the goose is good for the gander" is typical western perspective. Problem is, it isn't in Islam. Islam says men and women ARE different. As such, there will be some differences in their rights and privileges they are afforded by God. A great many Muslim women accept this. Maybe you simply need to come to terms with this.

Ugh. We've gone over this point. Just because men and women are biologically different does not justify placing onerous conditions on women or limiting their dress to such a degree that no one can see their hair, calves, etc. No one on this thread has established any sort of convincing argument that the hijab is somehow needed due to the differences between men and women.

But if that is what you say Islam is, I guess that is what Islam is. A religion that places rigid and unjustifiable limitations on women.

You've got that backwards. No one set out to convince you. If you don't believe the hijab is needed, then guess what, don't wear one. If you think Islam places rigid and unjustifiable limitations on women, then guess what, don't be a Muslim. You are starting from the position of "I need to be convinced hijab is a good idea", and the truth is that no one cares what you believe. People who want to cover will cover. The opinion of a random DCUM chick is several universes away from relevant.

If someone's opinion is not relevant, why are you even responding to it? Why do you care enough to post?

Because it gives me pleasure to tell you how ridiculous your whining sounds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Hair is not a gender marker? For thousands of years women have worn their hair much longer than men and it has always been a gender identifier.
"What's good for the goose is good for the gander" is typical western perspective. Problem is, it isn't in Islam. Islam says men and women ARE different. As such, there will be some differences in their rights and privileges they are afforded by God. A great many Muslim women accept this. Maybe you simply need to come to terms with this.

Ugh. We've gone over this point. Just because men and women are biologically different does not justify placing onerous conditions on women or limiting their dress to such a degree that no one can see their hair, calves, etc. No one on this thread has established any sort of convincing argument that the hijab is somehow needed due to the differences between men and women.

But if that is what you say Islam is, I guess that is what Islam is. A religion that places rigid and unjustifiable limitations on women.

No one in this thread has? But the majority of the billion Muslims have established exactly that. That is why we have a 40 page thread, no? You and your handful of islamophobes just can not accept the view of most Muslims.

Muslims can do whatever they want. If you want to convince us something is legitimate or makes sense, that is another story. The entire world used to treat women as property, the entire world used to prohibit women from voting and working etc. Just because a billion people do something doesn't make it right.

It makes it right for them. I think it pisses you off that you can't bend the world to your will. And she doesn't want to convince you. This thread didn't start as "hijabs are awesome." You had questions. A Muslim lady came over and answered them as it makes sense to her. You don't really have to believe any of this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I think most of us have come to terms with hijab and will even defend your right to veil. However, we can still wonder and ask questions here about standards of modesty that ask women to enforce men's purity, and that don't also require modesty in other aspects of living such as cars, houses, jewelry, et cetera. These questions have been raised, but the answers here have been unsatisfactory (to many here, it would seem) and in fact your answers have digressed into Western women's athletic gear and STDs. That's why you're seeing pushback. I suppose you, too, will need to come to terms with this.

You're giving her "pushback" because you don't really want to be convinced, you have your position, and you're standing by it. That's fine, but then don't pretend there's an answer in the world that could have satisfied you. You're acting like a five-year old who keeps getting more and more reasons why he can't have ice cream before dinner only to keep saying "but whyyyyy? whyyyyyy? you haven't convinced me!"

This post makes no sense. The pp made valid points, why are you saying she is "like a five-year old?" You don't know her, you don't know anything about her beyond that paragraph, and you don't know if there is something that could have convinced her. I don't understand posts like this that just want to call people names and shut down the discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If someone's opinion is not relevant, why are you even responding to it? Why do you care enough to post?

Because it gives me pleasure to tell you how ridiculous your whining sounds.

That's sort of sad and you're not adding anything to the discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
It makes it right for them. I think it pisses you off that you can't bend the world to your will. And she doesn't want to convince you. This thread didn't start as "hijabs are awesome." You had questions. A Muslim lady came over and answered them as it makes sense to her. You don't really have to believe any of this.

This discussion isn't really about being pissed off. It's a debate, and it isn't really clear what your objection is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Hair is not a gender marker? For thousands of years women have worn their hair much longer than men and it has always been a gender identifier.
"What's good for the goose is good for the gander" is typical western perspective. Problem is, it isn't in Islam. Islam says men and women ARE different. As such, there will be some differences in their rights and privileges they are afforded by God. A great many Muslim women accept this. Maybe you simply need to come to terms with this.

Ugh. We've gone over this point. Just because men and women are biologically different does not justify placing onerous conditions on women or limiting their dress to such a degree that no one can see their hair, calves, etc. No one on this thread has established any sort of convincing argument that the hijab is somehow needed due to the differences between men and women.

But if that is what you say Islam is, I guess that is what Islam is. A religion that places rigid and unjustifiable limitations on women.

No one in this thread has? But the majority of the billion Muslims have established exactly that. That is why we have a 40 page thread, no? You and your handful of islamophobes just can not accept the view of most Muslims.

Muslims can do whatever they want. If you want to convince us something is legitimate or makes sense, that is another story. The entire world used to treat women as property, the entire world used to prohibit women from voting and working etc. Just because a billion people do something doesn't make it right.

It makes it right for them. I think it pisses you off that you can't bend the world to your will. And she doesn't want to convince you. This thread didn't start as "hijabs are awesome." You had questions. A Muslim lady came over and answered them as it makes sense to her. You don't really have to believe any of this.

What this thread is about is the piece with Muslim women saying the veil is unnecessary. That's right in OP's very first post. So questions about whether the veil is, you know, necessary are totally on-topic. You can't redefine the thread to your liking. If you don't want to answer questions about whether the veil is necessary then just don't participate in this particular thread for 40 pages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think most of us have come to terms with hijab and will even defend your right to veil. However, we can still wonder and ask questions here about standards of modesty that ask women to enforce men's purity, and that don't also require modesty in other aspects of living such as cars, houses, jewelry, et cetera. These questions have been raised, but the answers here have been unsatisfactory (to many here, it would seem) and in fact your answers have digressed into Western women's athletic gear and STDs. That's why you're seeing pushback. I suppose you, too, will need to come to terms with this.

You're giving her "pushback" because you don't really want to be convinced, you have your position, and you're standing by it. That's fine, but then don't pretend there's an answer in the world that could have satisfied you. You're acting like a five-year old who keeps getting more and more reasons why he can't have ice cream before dinner only to keep saying "but whyyyyy? whyyyyyy? you haven't convinced me!"

This post makes no sense. The pp made valid points, why are you saying she is "like a five-year old?" You don't know her, you don't know anything about her beyond that paragraph, and you don't know if there is something that could have convinced her. I don't understand posts like this that just want to call people names and shut down the discussion. m

Thanks, and you're correct. I disagree with PP but insulting me doesn't solve that. Namely, the Quran doesn't explicitly require covering the hair, and I find PP's arguments for covering hair anyway to be sexist and unpersuasive. The fetisizing of women's hair is frankly ludicrous, offensive, and is way off base about most women's relationship with their own hair; I don't agree with a system that places 90% of the burden for controlling men's lust on the woman; and I don't understand a system where "modesty" hinges on women's hair but not on other things we in the west associate with modesty, like men's dress and avoiding conspicuous consumption. None of this makes me a five-year-old. Maybe there are compelling reasons out there that don't smack of sexism and fetishization of women's hair, but PP has been unable to verbalize them. Calling me names doesn't make PP's hijab arguments any more persuasive, it just makes her look like a jerk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think most of us have come to terms with hijab and will even defend your right to veil. However, we can still wonder and ask questions here about standards of modesty that ask women to enforce men's purity, and that don't also require modesty in other aspects of living such as cars, houses, jewelry, et cetera. These questions have been raised, but the answers here have been unsatisfactory (to many here, it would seem) and in fact your answers have digressed into Western women's athletic gear and STDs. That's why you're seeing pushback. I suppose you, too, will need to come to terms with this.

You're giving her "pushback" because you don't really want to be convinced, you have your position, and you're standing by it. That's fine, but then don't pretend there's an answer in the world that could have satisfied you. You're acting like a five-year old who keeps getting more and more reasons why he can't have ice cream before dinner only to keep saying "but whyyyyy? whyyyyyy? you haven't convinced me!"

This post makes no sense. The pp made valid points, why are you saying she is "like a five-year old?" You don't know her, you don't know anything about her beyond that paragraph, and you don't know if there is something that could have convinced her. I don't understand posts like this that just want to call people names and shut down the discussion.

m

Thanks, and you're correct. I disagree with PP but insulting me doesn't solve that. Namely, the Quran doesn't explicitly require covering the hair, and I find PP's arguments for covering hair anyway to be sexist and unpersuasive. The fetisizing of women's hair is frankly ludicrous, offensive, and is way off base about most women's relationship with their own hair; I don't agree with a system that places 90% of the burden for controlling men's lust on the woman; and I don't understand a system where "modesty" hinges on women's hair but not on other things we in the west associate with modesty, like men's dress and avoiding conspicuous consumption. None of this makes me a five-year-old. Maybe there are compelling reasons out there that don't smack of sexism and fetishization of women's hair, but PP has been unable to verbalize them. Calling me names doesn't make PP's hijab arguments any more persuasive, it just makes her look like a jerk.

PS. As I have said before, I will defend PP's right to wear what she chooses. But that doesn't mean I have to think hijab makes sense. She's welcome to think that even 100% of married women, like me, are "using" their brown shoulder-length hair (in my case) as man-traps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Hair is not a gender marker? For thousands of years women have worn their hair much longer than men and it has always been a gender identifier.
"What's good for the goose is good for the gander" is typical western perspective. Problem is, it isn't in Islam. Islam says men and women ARE different. As such, there will be some differences in their rights and privileges they are afforded by God. A great many Muslim women accept this. Maybe you simply need to come to terms with this.

Ugh. We've gone over this point. Just because men and women are biologically different does not justify placing onerous conditions on women or limiting their dress to such a degree that no one can see their hair, calves, etc. No one on this thread has established any sort of convincing argument that the hijab is somehow needed due to the differences between men and women.

But if that is what you say Islam is, I guess that is what Islam is. A religion that places rigid and unjustifiable limitations on women.

You've got that backwards. No one set out to convince you. If you don't believe the hijab is needed, then guess what, don't wear one. If you think Islam places rigid and unjustifiable limitations on women, then guess what, don't be a Muslim. You are starting from the position of "I need to be convinced hijab is a good idea", and the truth is that no one cares what you believe. People who want to cover will cover. The opinion of a random DCUM chick is several universes away from relevant.

If someone's opinion is not relevant, why are you even responding to it? Why do you care enough to post?

Because it gives me pleasure to tell you how ridiculous your whining sounds.

I am starting to think that this repeated poster who doesn't want discussion or dissenting opinions and is full of outrageous insults is a man and NOT a hijab wearing woman...