Anonymous wrote:I see Israel as the underdog—surrounded by enemies, hated by the UN, the list goes on. It really is fighting a multi-front war.
That’s quite the definition of underdog.
The country with the most sophisticated military in the region that also happens to be closely allied with the country boasting the most powerful military in the world. And they’re fighting an impoverished population that doesn’t even control their own water.
I don’t think underdog means what you think it means.
+1
Exactly.
Don't start a war if you don't want to fight one particularly if you are impoverished.
I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...
Wait what? What are you talking about? I am confused. This isn't the American South where African Americans (my people) at times were called uppity if they were successful, your comparison doesn't make any sense. You are so used to use our struggle to try to justify whatever it is you think you are going through that you are now getting sloppy.
Restatement: I believe this is more conventionally known as the "Know your place, boy" argument ...
The fact that one diverse group was subjected to inhumanity across hundreds of years of slavery, having been shoved into the ground using this same phrase doesn't mean that another group cannot also suffer a grotesque fate (specifically, the sustained, humiliating, intentionally provocative order by "their betters" to accept their station in society and STFU about it, lest they get a good and thorough beating). You don't have exclusive rights to being marginalized by bad people. Today, the lynching is delivered at arms length via gleaming F-22 fighter jets that one side is gifted by guess who?
Uncle Sam, back at it again!
Again, you missed the whole point of "don't start a war you don't want to fight"--the point is go fight the war but don't complain when who you fight, fights back. Again, to cheaply gain sympathy from African Americans, you are making a comparison that literally makes no sense in the context of the conversation. No one is talking about no keep yourself in your place (yes I am using a double negative like a good black person when we are really trying to emphasize something by using AAVE intentionally)
[b]Those "complaining" are not the actors in the drama. The complainers are the rest of the civilized world. Who do you imagine ISN'T howling at what's been occurring for the past three weeks?
The complainers didn't start the war. They're also not fighting the war. But they are well within the bounds of society to seek and end to the atrocities that have taken place on both side in the past three weeks. They don't need your approval, nor anyone's.
Look, if you like to see or hear that humans are being blown apart every day for three weeks, I guess you have to look within and find what makes you actually tick because it sure as hell isn't compassion.
This is not true, you act as if the Palestinians have had this immense power to galvanize the world to share their opinion and that is not true. Despite what you think this issue is not at the forefront of people's minds. In other words, the world population doesn't hate Jews as much as you do, you might think people are sitting around so irritated by Jews as much as you are but that is not true. I am learning that anti semetics use this language a lot, that the whole world know this or that about jews. Their hate is so insidious they think it is natural and that everyone feels it. In any event, even if the whole world hated Isreal, that doesn't mean that feeling is right (but again I don't think this is true anyway)
Seriously, what is wrong with you? Why does everything distill into "You hate the Jews"? This pathological need to label others as anti-semitic, without even knowing who they are, what they believe, or anything else is staggering to me. Nothing in anything I've written here or elsewhere in my lifetime expressed hatred for Jewish people. Do you just assign hatred whenever someone doesn't fold in the echo chamber and calls BS?
I’ve read much of the original thread and the arguments for Israel boil down to:
Well what do YOU think Israel should do? (Respect the Palestinians in the first place and not empower Hamas)
And
Objecting to Israel is antisemitism.
Everything in the 1000+ page thread boils down to these two sentiments. It’s very hard work to justify the collective punishment and annihilation of 2 million people, and posters here are lazy.
Respect them in the first place or you would have not been terrorized--sounding like street thugs who are always talking about pride and honor if you disrespect me I will cap you! Life isn't a 90s rap video Palestine supporters. Yeah so pin the post above so we can all see that yes, they see the Hamas attack as justified, because they were disrespected.
Again, let’s establish something:
Israel created Hamas. Then Israel empowered Hamas.
I guess that was a bad idea.
Sorry, you can’t pretend that Israel is a good faith actor or that the Palestinians, as a people, have been treated fairly or that history began on October 7. It just doesn’t work that way! The history is there for people to figure out.
This is a blatant and complete distortion. Israel did not create Hamas. This is the skewed statements that suggest your bias against Israel and implicit statement that Israeli deaths and kidnappings are their fault is atrocious.
Israel wants to exist. That is all. It is Hamas that wants to destroy it and before Hamas other Palestinian regimes. If there was no aggression against Israel, there would be no aggression from Israel.
So simple, right?! But to exist Israel keeps its boot on the throat of millions.
Just think how much better the world would be if people didn't believe in competing religious fairy tales.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
And many on this thread have explained: the fact that Israel’s very existence is threatened by the prospect of ACTUAL democracy and human rights is not really our problem. It’s Israel’s problem of Israel’s creation.
If you want the land, you have to take the people ON the land. If you don’t want the people, you can’t have the land. If you want the land without the people, you’re going to have to have an apartheid state or genocide, and that’s a problem for the rest of us. I don’t need my tax money contributing to that.
If you think a government run by jihadis looks anything like democracy we are going nowhere in the conversation. Whack job.
So basically your position is that Palestinians can NEVER have their full human rights, because they are “jihadis.” Ok.
Umm … you termed Israel’s existence as being threatened by democracy. Care to elaborate? Because otherwise it seems like you’re calling Hamas democrats.
Why do you keep speaking Hamas. I think most posters are looking towards the future going forward. Isn’t it Biden and IDF’s mission to eradicate Hamas this week. If so, there is no Hamas and if people don’t want the beginning of a newer, deadlier and stronger Hamas, Israel and Biden need to find a way to include Palestinians in the landscape and not in an apartheid state of affairs.
A world without terrorists... if only John Lennon were around to write a song about this.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
Your assumption is that Palestinians are simply an existential threat to Israel- this means that the two state solution is ALSO an existential threat to Israel, because a Palestinian state is entitled to have a real military, control over its air space, control over its sea ports, right next door to Israel.
Basically the Palestinian people being alive and in proximity to Israel is a problem. Now, is it MY problem? No. Should America help fix this “problem” for Israel? Nope.
My assumption is that Palestinians are absolutely such a threat if Hamas still exists.
But nice to know you’re on the team that is ok with Israel fighting the Arab world plus Iran on its own.
I don’t really care WHAT happens to Israel, because it had the time and resources and chose to facilitate the creation of Hamas and support Hamas instead of coming up with solutions.
Israel created all of its current dilemmas. Not my problem.
Cool. So if all 7 million Israeli Jews die in a war against the Arab world, you wouldn’t care.
Just so we’re clear.
Israel has nuclear weapons and supposedly a very good military and has normalized relations with many of its neighbors. It will be fine.
Tell me all about how great the relations with its neighbors are.
Egypt? Sure, maybe. But they wouldn’t fight for Israel. They’re part of the Arab League.
But here are the countries that would declare war:
Syria
Iran
Lebanon
Saudi Arabia
Probably also the smaller states.
Then you have Hamas and Hezbollah.
Israel would lose that war.
. Not Saudi Arabia. SA was at the point of normalizing relations with Israel
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
Your assumption is that Palestinians are simply an existential threat to Israel- this means that the two state solution is ALSO an existential threat to Israel, because a Palestinian state is entitled to have a real military, control over its air space, control over its sea ports, right next door to Israel.
Basically the Palestinian people being alive and in proximity to Israel is a problem. Now, is it MY problem? No. Should America help fix this “problem” for Israel? Nope.
My assumption is that Palestinians are absolutely such a threat if Hamas still exists.
But nice to know you’re on the team that is ok with Israel fighting the Arab world plus Iran on its own.
I don’t really care WHAT happens to Israel, because it had the time and resources and chose to facilitate the creation of Hamas and support Hamas instead of coming up with solutions.
Israel created all of its current dilemmas. Not my problem.
Cool. So if all 7 million Israeli Jews die in a war against the Arab world, you wouldn’t care.
Just so we’re clear.
Israel has nuclear weapons and supposedly a very good military and has normalized relations with many of its neighbors. It will be fine.
Tell me all about how great the relations with its neighbors are.
Egypt? Sure, maybe. But they wouldn’t fight for Israel. They’re part of the Arab League.
But here are the countries that would declare war:
Syria
Iran
Lebanon
Saudi Arabia
Probably also the smaller states.
Then you have Hamas and Hezbollah.
Israel would lose that war.
. Not Saudi Arabia. SA was at the point of normalizing relations with Israel
These are the Palestinians friends:
Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and the usual rogues gallery of terror organization. Hardly the winner's circle.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
Try to understand. I am not Palestinian. Or even Arabic. Or Muslim. But when I see the dead and injured children in Gaza, I see my son. You can call that naive or ignorant if you like. I fully get that Hamas are monsters and have chosen to inflict unspeakable damage on Israelis. Doesn’t change the fact that Israel’s response is hurting innocents too. And I don’t find the innocent Israeli’s killed by Hamas to be worth more than the children killed by Israel.
But if you see a dead Israeli, do you see your son?
I do not want to see Israeli children harmed. Or their mothers raped. Or their grandmothers taken hostage. All of this has clearly happened.
But to your question above. When I see pictures of young Palestinian boys, they literally look like my son (we are brown skinned with origins from a different part of the globe). That has an emotional response which is real.
You know, when I see dead kids of any race, I have a strong emotional response. It’s weird and somewhat sociopathic that you don’t.
But see, it’s only if she thinks they look like her kid.
Honestly? I didn’t know whether I should respond to that question but I decided to do so. Of course I (like hopefully all people) respond to children of all races being hurt or killed. I am not going to lie - there is something about those Palestinian children who just have such a rough lot in life that has captured me. Since we have been talking about how the American population is becoming slightly less reflexively pro Israel/anti Palestine, I thought I would share my reaction. I think mainstream Americans are more able today to see the humanity in Palestinians than they have before. Maybe because of social media and other sources of news?
Israeli children mean nothing to you. You can’t relate to them, I guess.
DP. I have no idea what you’re trying to pull from that poster. She has already said that Jewish’s children deaths means are sad and are important. What more do you want from her -Jews are more important than Palestinians? Well they’re not. All those children are important and if the two sides don’t figure it out, more children on both sides will continue to live tragic lives, although it does seem that Palestinian children lives are enduring more tragedy the last six decades.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.
I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.
I have said that many times.
I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.
I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.
People have said “I don’t care.”
So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.
You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either
And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.
I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.
And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
Oh god. Here you pro-apartheid folks go again. We must have a mandatory preamble to everything. How about all you pro-apartheid era start with whether you believe ethnic cleansing is justified by Israel and whether “never again “ only applies to European Jews, huh?
Answer that and lead with it every time
I asked you a question first. Stop deflecting.
Your question is BS pro apartheid censorship. When you don’t have a point, you pivot and demand that everyone swear allegiance to Israel. It’s fascist tactics and I’m over it. You guys have been exposed
Do you support genocide as long as the dead are brown?
Arabs aren’t brown, dumbass.
You clearly don’t know any Arabs from your home in Maryland. My family all disagree with you, but rich white ladies csll the shots, right?
I’m not white, but nice try.
Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews look nearly identical.
Sure, Jan. I’ve been hearing all week how Amy Schumer is an oppressed POC. Must’ve been hard for her. Plenty of police profiling. And with only a Senate Majority Leader cousin to help her out? So hard
Your complete lack of willingness to acknowledge that Jews are anything but privileged is disgusting.
You do realize people can care about Jews and Palestinians, right?
You have evidenced a lack of ability to do just that.
Jews in this country benefit from whiteness. I’ve been told repeatedly on this thread that they are oppressed POC. It’s a clear misrepresentation— particularly by people like Amy Schumer
Your inability to see beyond skin tone is gross.
Also, you know full well that plenty of Jews are indistinguishable from plenty of Arabs.
You’re deflecting. The statement is correct no matter how much you want to pretend that society, police, employers , etc are colorblind. Does racism not exist in your world? That’s nice
Antisemitism doesn’t exist in yours.
How has antisemitism kept you marginalized? Have you been denied employment? Arrested without cause? Denied access to education? Lack representation in government, academia or professional fields? Have you been part of an underserved community?
I’ve asked that a lot and always get responses that start with “my grandparents and great grandparents in 1914 and 1936….”. Fast fwd 75 years, let’s talk about today
I got beat up for being Jewish as a kid. Got told the Jews killed Jesus quite a bit.
A few people tried to convert me when I was a teenager, telling me I was going to hell.
In Russia I was regularly harassed and verbally abused.
My synagogue got attacked when I was in it.
And a man told me when he was giving me a ride because my car broke down, “if you was a Jew I’d kill you.” He had a gun in the back of his truck. I was grateful I didn’t tell him my full name and that my Star of David necklace wasn’t on that day.
So you’re telling me that people are terrible in Russia? I think we know that
Have you been denied educational or financial opportunities due to being Jewish? Arrested or detained? Profiled without cause? Not represented in government?
And how do the Russians treat minority Muslims?
You are remarkably callous.
Yes, I was denied several jobs due to my name being obviously Jewish. I know because of coded comments they made.
I have lived in states with no Jewish representatives and clear anti-Jewish bias (see above instances of being beaten up).
I’m sorry but it’s just so unbelievable . You didn’t get a job offer and you accused them of antisemitism when most people probably have no idea?
Where did you live and get beat up? I think you made it up
I posted three instances of Jews being beaten up for being Jewish in NYC. It’s worse in states with fewer Jews.
Would you tell anyone else they were making up experiences?
What nerve you have.
It’s the insistence that we believe that antisemitism today creates a marginalized oppressed POC group. It just doesn’t exist
Meanwhile you use that false narrative to justify the ethnic cleansing of millions. But somehow they aren’t victims. You are?
It’s crazy how the narrative is driven in this country
Yes I am asking you to believe my life is real.
I would believe you.
But you fail to give me that basic human respect.
But you don’t believe anyone but your own victimization. And that has led you to call for the death of millions. It’s sick
No. You don’t get to deflect here. I have never said anything about calling for the death of anyone.
You asked for evidence of discrimination in my life. I shared painful experiences with you.
You flat out told me I was lying.
I’m not deflecting anything. Nor has my position changed. I don’t see that stark marginalization of Jewish groups in an academic, financial, governmental, police profiling or other regard. And I have no idea if what you are saying is true. I do know that this narrative drives the current slaughter of millions. So you get that, I guess.
I will repeat again that I don’t support killing anyone.
You are absolutely disgusting for not believing someone telling you their truth.
Hamas leaders have come out and said they need the blood of women, children and the elderly in Gaza to prove to the world that there is a Palestinian Holocaust going on. No one has to guess what Hamas wants. We are being told.
So for Hamas. a Sunni Islamist political and military organization ruling the Gaza strip, alcohol is proscribed, but taking captagon to fuel rage killing is fine? Or do they drink too? The hypocrisy.
Anonymous wrote:Amazing how, when you push these posters to the logical ends of their arguments, they admit they honestly don’t care if Israel has to fight much of the Arab world on its own and if millions of Israeli Jews die.
They also admit they don’t feel as much for Israeli kids because they think they don't look like their kid.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
If you believe this to be true, why are you supporting the elimination of hundreds of thousands of children under the age of thirteen.
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
You can’t answer a question with a question. Do you believe that Israel has a strategy and is pursuing a course of action that will succeed, or don’t you? And if so, why would they then have to worry about Hamas infilitrating the Palestinian population? THEN you can give me a question.
I think they’re dealing with an insane death cult and there are no good options.
But I assume you have ingenious ideas.
Why is razing Gaza, a place that is 50% children, and killing thousands upon thousands of innocent people the best of their bad options?
What’s your plan?
Why do I have to have a plan? I am just a civilian without an army and intelligence service at my disposal. You would think with everything Israel has, they would be able to come up with a plan that someone, anyone, can believe in. I guess they just drank their own kool aid for too long. Even YOU don’t think they will succeed as you try to defend their tactics. They are just taking Hamas’ bait.
Sometimes when you make a series of awful decisions you go down a path that will end badly no matter what you do next, and it is no one’s fault but your own. Israel is going down that path.
So easy when you’re sitting in your Bethesda house. So goddamn easy.
So mean and nasty with the "Bethesda house" line.
Once they run out of talking points they get mad and call names. At least I am not anti-Semitic, I’ve just committed the cardinal sin of potentially living in Bethesda.
No, you’re just a charlatan who pretends to care about humanity when really you’re willing to throw the lives of Israeli Jews away.
Who said ANYTHING about throwing the lives of Israeli Jews away? YOU are the one who essentially conceded that THOUSANDS of Palestinian lives are being thrown away in a futile effort to eliminate Hamas, and YOU are the one who seems ok with that. It’s not a hypothetical- people are dying for no reason, by your own admission, and you are TOTALLY OK with it.
I NEVER SAID I AM OK WITH IT.
I have said that many times.
I have explained how withdrawing US support would result in Israel vs much of the region.
I have explained how a one state solution without getting rid of Hamas puts Israeli Jews in danger.
People have said “I don’t care.”
So if Hamas is a threat to Israel, couldn’t Israel absorb the Palestinians in the West Bank and give them citizenship? They never voted for Hamas. Then Israel would get all the territory it wants in the West Bank.
You guys act like they’re just pets. I’ve yet to meet a Palestinian who thought they’d be safe in Israel. They’d be targeted, harassed, or murdered. I’d never want to subject myself to that much oppression, though really they’re not safe from Israel now either
And how many Palestinians have you asked? 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, so at least those Palestinians feel safe.
I’ve actually met a Palestinian academic who very passionately believes that it is time for a one state solution.
And that 20% are treated like second class citizens. Israel is a deeply racist country. Every Palestinian I know feels that way. I know zero who think otherwise. And same for my extended family in other Arab countries. We talk about this a lot
Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?
Oh god. Here you pro-apartheid folks go again. We must have a mandatory preamble to everything. How about all you pro-apartheid era start with whether you believe ethnic cleansing is justified by Israel and whether “never again “ only applies to European Jews, huh?
Answer that and lead with it every time
I asked you a question first. Stop deflecting.
Your question is BS pro apartheid censorship. When you don’t have a point, you pivot and demand that everyone swear allegiance to Israel. It’s fascist tactics and I’m over it. You guys have been exposed
Do you support genocide as long as the dead are brown?
Arabs aren’t brown, dumbass.
You clearly don’t know any Arabs from your home in Maryland. My family all disagree with you, but rich white ladies csll the shots, right?
I’m not white, but nice try.
Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews look nearly identical.
Sure, Jan. I’ve been hearing all week how Amy Schumer is an oppressed POC. Must’ve been hard for her. Plenty of police profiling. And with only a Senate Majority Leader cousin to help her out? So hard
Your complete lack of willingness to acknowledge that Jews are anything but privileged is disgusting.
You do realize people can care about Jews and Palestinians, right?
You have evidenced a lack of ability to do just that.
Jews in this country benefit from whiteness. I’ve been told repeatedly on this thread that they are oppressed POC. It’s a clear misrepresentation— particularly by people like Amy Schumer
Your inability to see beyond skin tone is gross.
Also, you know full well that plenty of Jews are indistinguishable from plenty of Arabs.
You’re deflecting. The statement is correct no matter how much you want to pretend that society, police, employers , etc are colorblind. Does racism not exist in your world? That’s nice
Antisemitism doesn’t exist in yours.
How has antisemitism kept you marginalized? Have you been denied employment? Arrested without cause? Denied access to education? Lack representation in government, academia or professional fields? Have you been part of an underserved community?
I’ve asked that a lot and always get responses that start with “my grandparents and great grandparents in 1914 and 1936….”. Fast fwd 75 years, let’s talk about today
I got beat up for being Jewish as a kid. Got told the Jews killed Jesus quite a bit.
A few people tried to convert me when I was a teenager, telling me I was going to hell.
In Russia I was regularly harassed and verbally abused.
My synagogue got attacked when I was in it.
And a man told me when he was giving me a ride because my car broke down, “if you was a Jew I’d kill you.” He had a gun in the back of his truck. I was grateful I didn’t tell him my full name and that my Star of David necklace wasn’t on that day.
So you’re telling me that people are terrible in Russia? I think we know that
Have you been denied educational or financial opportunities due to being Jewish? Arrested or detained? Profiled without cause? Not represented in government?
And how do the Russians treat minority Muslims?
You are remarkably callous.
Yes, I was denied several jobs due to my name being obviously Jewish. I know because of coded comments they made.
I have lived in states with no Jewish representatives and clear anti-Jewish bias (see above instances of being beaten up).
I’m sorry but it’s just so unbelievable . You didn’t get a job offer and you accused them of antisemitism when most people probably have no idea?
Where did you live and get beat up? I think you made it up
I posted three instances of Jews being beaten up for being Jewish in NYC. It’s worse in states with fewer Jews.
Would you tell anyone else they were making up experiences?
What nerve you have.
It’s the insistence that we believe that antisemitism today creates a marginalized oppressed POC group. It just doesn’t exist
Meanwhile you use that false narrative to justify the ethnic cleansing of millions. But somehow they aren’t victims. You are?
It’s crazy how the narrative is driven in this country
Yes I am asking you to believe my life is real.
I would believe you.
But you fail to give me that basic human respect.
But you don’t believe anyone but your own victimization. And that has led you to call for the death of millions. It’s sick
No. You don’t get to deflect here. I have never said anything about calling for the death of anyone.
You asked for evidence of discrimination in my life. I shared painful experiences with you.
You flat out told me I was lying.
I’m not deflecting anything. Nor has my position changed. I don’t see that stark marginalization of Jewish groups in an academic, financial, governmental, police profiling or other regard. And I have no idea if what you are saying is true. I do know that this narrative drives the current slaughter of millions. So you get that, I guess.
I will repeat again that I don’t support killing anyone.
You are absolutely disgusting for not believing someone telling you their truth.
Hamas leaders have come out and said they need the blood of women, children and the elderly in Gaza to prove to the world that there is a Palestinian Holocaust going on. No one has to guess what Hamas wants. We are being told.
I don't they would allow any hospital evacuations. Also, this (from NBC news). All they have left to leverage maybe, their own people?:
"Senior administration officials say Egypt was insisting no one could come out of Gaza until all the aid got in, but that those Egyptian officials have now relented, but now Hamas is holding up the exit of the Americans."
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
Your assumption is that Palestinians are simply an existential threat to Israel- this means that the two state solution is ALSO an existential threat to Israel, because a Palestinian state is entitled to have a real military, control over its air space, control over its sea ports, right next door to Israel.
Basically the Palestinian people being alive and in proximity to Israel is a problem. Now, is it MY problem? No. Should America help fix this “problem” for Israel? Nope.
My assumption is that Palestinians are absolutely such a threat if Hamas still exists.
But nice to know you’re on the team that is ok with Israel fighting the Arab world plus Iran on its own.
I don’t really care WHAT happens to Israel, because it had the time and resources and chose to facilitate the creation of Hamas and support Hamas instead of coming up with solutions.
Israel created all of its current dilemmas. Not my problem.
Ok. So you realize people could say that about Palestinians right? I don’t, though.
Hamas launched a massive terror attack and is holding Israelis and other countries’ citizens hostage. Should we not care what happens to Palestinians because of what their government just did?
I mean, that’s the actual reality of the Palestinian situation. People are watching helplessly as Israel is bombing Gaza into oblivion and killing thousand and thousands of people in the most brutal way. Their leaders made a lot of mistakes over the decades and now their people are paying the price while no one actually helps them. We can say we “care” but no one with actual power actually cares.
If that were true, there would be nothing left of Gaza at all right now.
. Have you been paying attention. There is nothing left of northern Gaza and Israel has bombed parts of southern Gaza
Anonymous wrote:I'd respect the pro-Palestinian contingent far more if they weren't so ignorant and didn't make this whole thing sound like a video game.
The saddest part is when I ask them what their alternative plan is to the current situation and they have nothing.
It’s all just feels. Which is fine, it’s right to feel sad and angry about the situation. I am. They just don’t know enough about the situation to really be able to engage substantively in a discussion about what’s next.
Which is frustrating. Listen, I hate it too. I hate Bibi. But I know enough to have an intelligent discussion about this. They clearly don’t, as they crumble in the face of questions.
Thank the heavens we have intelligent folks like you here to occupy the adult table. Do you even read aloud what you type? People here have endured your inane perseveration re: “to what end” and already Mutombo’d the shit out of it with ideas. Others have ignored you because they know YOUR endgame is to stifle any real discussion because in the long run, you’re pleased as punch with the status quo.
No one has given reasonable ideas, or in fact any ideas.
You use the word reasonable to tip your hand that you’re not willing to change ANYTHING, but you expect not to be laughed at or ignored. OK.
I never said that. But when the only idea is one that would guarantee 7 million Israeli Jews are under the rule of Palestinians, without getting rid of Hamas, well then that’s not so reasonable now is it?
That’s not a solution ANYONE has floated, nor one that I would support. Both sides deserve to live in peaceful co-existence with one another. Anything that threatens that, like Hamas militants / terrorists or parents that teach their children to dehumanize the other side or Bibi or settler militants / terrorists or politicians on both sides who dehumanize the other side or displaced Palestinians who can’t get onboard with a new plan … they can all F off, as far as I’m concerned.
So I have to explain it again:
One state means Palestinians rule because there are more of them. That places all Israeli Jews at risk, especially if Hamas is still around.
Many on this thread have proposed one state.
The West Bank is the one state solution of Israeli and Arabs living side by side and even though it is majority Palestinians but they don’t rule. The ones at risk are not the Israelis in the West Bank. It’s the Palestinians.
Jeez, I really do have to spell it all out for you all.
If ALL Palestinians were incorporated into Israel as one state, they would outnumber Jews and thus run the government.
But that’s… democracy. That’s how a democratic country works. Artificially holding people on land and giving them no citizenship is apartheid. I live in a democracy, I do not support an apartheid state.
And if Hamas is still around, they would infiltrate that government and kill Jews en masse.
Ok with you?
But I thought Israel is destroying Hamas by razing Gaza and killing thousands of children. No?
Hamas will be around for quite awhile. So you can’t hurt conveniently pretend they’re gone.
Then why is Israel razing Gaza? What are they accomplishing and how long is that supposed to take?
Well, when you’re trying to get rid of a wealthy terrorist group that has ruled a place for 20 years, it takes awhile.
Ask the US about Afghanistan and how that went.
So if that is your analogy, are you saying that Israel will actually never defeat Hamas and the organisation will just bounce back? Then why are they killing so many civilians? What is being accomplished?
So we’re back again to my original question: what’s your alternative strategy?
Haha. You couldn’t answer her question. Your pivot is terrible.
Anonymous wrote:The videos are starting to come out from Gaza tonight and it is beyond horiffic. Israel will never come back from their complete and utter atrocities.
Huh? Israel is at war with Hamas. It has provided evacuation notices so people can move south. The IDF is regarded as one of the most humane militaries there is.
You’re a jokester, liar or denier. Pick your poison because IDF and humane does not belong in the same sentence.
Anonymous wrote:The videos are starting to come out from Gaza tonight and it is beyond horiffic. Israel will never come back from their complete and utter atrocities.
Huh? Israel is at war with Hamas. It has provided evacuation notices so people can move south. The IDF is regarded as one of the most humane militaries there is.
You’re a jokester, liar or denier. Pick your poison because IDF and humane does not belong in the same sentence.
Forum Index
»
Political Discussion
![[Post New]](/jforum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif){kind=icon}