S/o outsourcing cleaning as a relationship fix

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think implied in this conversation, but not expressly stated, is the belief that somehow, the wife can force the husband to do more if only she insists more, using the right words and logic.

But the wife can’t do that. She cannot make him do anything, full stop. A cleaning service is accepting it as true (which it is).

A husband who genuinely loves his wife and respects her as a person would change his ways after being shown how impossible it is for her to do everything (be a working mom and a SAHM who does 90% of child and house related tasks).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think implied in this conversation, but not expressly stated, is the belief that somehow, the wife can force the husband to do more if only she insists more, using the right words and logic.

But the wife can’t do that. She cannot make him do anything, full stop. A cleaning service is accepting it as true (which it is).

A husband who genuinely loves his wife and respects her as a person would change his ways after being shown how impossible it is for her to do everything (be a working mom and a SAHM who does 90% of child and house related tasks).
[/quote

And this is why people and up divorced over this. It isn’t actually about the dishes or the school drop offs. It is about the complete and total disrespect for your spouse if you behave like this.

[Anonymous]

My DW and I have disagreements about childcare and cleaning. But she refuses to make a list or agree to any suggestions I have about how to split the tasks. She still complains about doing too much work!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think implied in this conversation, but not expressly stated, is the belief that somehow, the wife can force the husband to do more if only she insists more, using the right words and logic.

But the wife can’t do that. She cannot make him do anything, full stop. A cleaning service is accepting it as true (which it is).

A husband who genuinely loves his wife and respects her as a person would change his ways after being shown how impossible it is for her to do everything (be a working mom and a SAHM who does 90% of child and house related tasks).

Stopping looking at it this way saved my marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only thing done daily in my house from your daily list is the dishes, and other than that, laundry (sent out) mail management and putting away groceries, our weekly cleaning service does it for $120/week.

And, I should think obviously, this does not mean we are “living in filth.”

You don’t make your bed every day? What about crumbs, dust, hair, and dirt brought in from the outside by shoes/clothes or a dog? If you’re living with kids or an animal, you need daily vacuuming and sweeping.

Sorry but I think that’s living in filth.

WTF? Do you eat in your bed in your outside clothes?

And I don’t have a dog.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think implied in this conversation, but not expressly stated, is the belief that somehow, the wife can force the husband to do more if only she insists more, using the right words and logic.

But the wife can’t do that. She cannot make him do anything, full stop. A cleaning service is accepting it as true (which it is).

A husband who genuinely loves his wife and respects her as a person would change his ways after being shown how impossible it is for her to do everything (be a working mom and a SAHM who does 90% of child and house related tasks).

Stopping looking at it this way saved my marriage.

Agreed. This is not how men think at ALL.

[Anonymous]

My husband and I are both bad at cleaning and don't want to do it so we do have cleaners, but it does almost nothing to solve imbalance issues (because I wasn't an obsessive cleaner anyway and never had any intention of doing it myself). I think cleaning is the tip of the iceberg for most people, but it's one of the only things that can actually be outsourced. I can't outsource interacting with my kids' schools/camps/doctors/etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only thing done daily in my house from your daily list is the dishes, and other than that, laundry (sent out) mail management and putting away groceries, our weekly cleaning service does it for $120/week.

And, I should think obviously, this does not mean we are “living in filth.”

You don’t make your bed every day? What about crumbs, dust, hair, and dirt brought in from the outside by shoes/clothes or a dog? If you’re living with kids or an animal, you need daily vacuuming and sweeping.

Sorry but I think that’s living in filth.

WTF? Do you eat in your bed in your outside clothes?

And I don’t have a dog.

I have tons of pets but agree PP is a ridiculous person. Travel to some developing countries and see what living in filth is. An unmade bed, a dish here or there, crumbs, or a couple of dust bunnies in a corner are so First World Problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think implied in this conversation, but not expressly stated, is the belief that somehow, the wife can force the husband to do more if only she insists more, using the right words and logic.

But the wife can’t do that. She cannot make him do anything, full stop. A cleaning service is accepting it as true (which it is).

A husband who genuinely loves his wife and respects her as a person would change his ways after being shown how impossible it is for her to do everything (be a working mom and a SAHM who does 90% of child and house related tasks).
[/quote

And this is why people and up divorced over this. It isn’t actually about the dishes or the school drop offs. It is about the complete and total disrespect for your spouse if you behave like this.

It's not a perfect cause and effect.

My DH does not do as much around the house as I do and does not do as much childcare as I do. But we are in frequent communication about this. He works hard to do better. I do not thing the split will be 50/50 as long as our kids are young -- it's just not realistic that he will change that much right now. But it gets a little better every day. I'd say our equilibrium is 60/40, with him also making a particular effort to make sure that I still get to do things for myself. From the older couples I've discussed this with, I think as long as our communication is good and we are working on it, it can only get better as our kids get older and need less hands-on childcare, and also learn to do things on their own. I definitely don't think we're on a path to divorce. Even though it's not equal now and hasn't been for several years, there is rarely resentment because we acknowledge this and do our best to fix it.

My DH is kind to me. It makes it easier when every time our kids need to leave the house, I'm packing lunches and doing sunscreen and checking the schedule to see what random crap I need to send with them, and my DH is looking at his phone. Because I can say "I need help" and instead of throwing a fit, he'll ask what he can do and do it. Would it be better if I didn't have to ask? YES. But it's not divorce-worthy to me if I have to ask. There are so few men you wouldn't have to ask. I'm sure they exist, but there are not enough to go around. I love my DH, I'm attracted to him, we have a nice life together. It's good enough. Those men you don't have to ask probably have other flaws. No one is perfect (including me).

If you need a 100% equal division of labor in order to avoid divorce, then don't get married. It will never happen. Someone always does more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m kind of with you, OP.
Outsourcing to a cleaner every other week helps somewhat, but it isn’t that helpful. If we were really only talking about 4 hours/wk of work, then all of this complaining would be ridiculous.
But outsourcing daily cleaning really isn’t that expensive. It’s not cheap, but it’s considerably less expensive than other alternatives like divorcing and maintaining two households or quitting your job/going part time (as long as you make a higher hourly wage than your housekeeper).

Also, I would argue that it isn’t any harder to teach kids to clean when you have a regular housekeeper. When you have this, then kids are used to things being clean, and they feel like that’s the way things ought to be, so they tolerate less mess. My kids were used to having a clean room, dusted and vacuumed, with a made bed and clothes put away. Now that they are older, and we don’t need a daily housekeeper anymore, when they have to clean their rooms, they only feel clean when they are dusted and vacuumed with made beds and clothes put away. Same goes for bathrooms, kitchen, etc. If it had been up to me, they would have spent their childhoods digging clean clothes from a huge pile in a hamper that I never completely got folded.

+1.

What about the disrespect he is showing you by outright refusing to perform a very reasonable request by you (doing his fair share of the cleaning)?

I don’t think it’s about respect. It’s not that he thinks that *I* should do the cleaning. He just doesn’t like to cook, clean, do laundry, or do yard work. He likes his work (as do I), and he likes being a husband and father. Why should he have to spend his leisure time doing laundry or mowing the lawn? Why should I have to?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only thing done daily in my house from your daily list is the dishes, and other than that, laundry (sent out) mail management and putting away groceries, our weekly cleaning service does it for $120/week.

And, I should think obviously, this does not mean we are “living in filth.”

You don’t make your bed every day? What about crumbs, dust, hair, and dirt brought in from the outside by shoes/clothes or a dog? If you’re living with kids or an animal, you need daily vacuuming and sweeping.

Sorry but I think that’s living in filth.

WTF? Do you eat in your bed in your outside clothes?

And I don’t have a dog.

+1. What exactly is the purpose of making your bed? I have never done this and have no intention of starting. People outside my family are not wandering into my bedroom to see if my bed is made or not. It's more hygienic not to anyway. I do sweep around the table after my kids eat because they're little and messy, but if it's not too bad I generally assign that task to my 3yo son who loves it. Otherwise, vacuuming once a week is fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think implied in this conversation, but not expressly stated, is the belief that somehow, the wife can force the husband to do more if only she insists more, using the right words and logic.

But the wife can’t do that. She cannot make him do anything, full stop. A cleaning service is accepting it as true (which it is).

A husband who genuinely loves his wife and respects her as a person would change his ways after being shown how impossible it is for her to do everything (be a working mom and a SAHM who does 90% of child and house related tasks).

Stopping looking at it this way saved my marriage.

Agreed. This is not how men think at ALL.

I just don’t get why many men just don’t think they should have to clean. They will let their wife do the majority of it, and if she complains they will hire a cleaning service so other women can do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My husband and I are both bad at cleaning and don't want to do it so we do have cleaners, but it does almost nothing to solve imbalance issues (because I wasn't an obsessive cleaner anyway and never had any intention of doing it myself). I think cleaning is the tip of the iceberg for most people, but it's one of the only things that can actually be outsourced. I can't outsource interacting with my kids' schools/camps/doctors/etc.

Yup. I'm actually good at cleaning and enjoy it. I sometimes get frustrated about the fact that I do most of the cleaning, but rarely -- I'm better at it and find it satisfying.

But what happens is that I'm busy doing all the family admin that I'm not good at and really loathe (forms, appointments, etc.) and then fall behind on the cleaning, plus I'm trying to get work done, plus the kids are always "Mom mom mom" all day. So it might come out as "I resent that I'm scrubbing the bathtub while you're watching YouTube videos. But it's not that I want him to scrub the tub, it's that I want him to do one of the 900 other things that need to be done while I'm scrubbing the tub.

The flip side, though, is that doing more cleaning or the low-hanging childcare work is usually the easiest thing for the non-primary parent to pitch in on. Asking my DH to make doctor's appointments is a whole production. I wind up having to teach him a bunch of stuff about how our doctor's office works (which he doesn't retain for some reason) and remind him 16 times and double check the date and make sure it gets in the calendar, etc. But he can do pick up or drop off, or wash the dishes, without my involvement. And that why that's the stuff that couples fight over, even though they really are not the crux of the problem at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m kind of with you, OP.
Outsourcing to a cleaner every other week helps somewhat, but it isn’t that helpful. If we were really only talking about 4 hours/wk of work, then all of this complaining would be ridiculous.
But outsourcing daily cleaning really isn’t that expensive. It’s not cheap, but it’s considerably less expensive than other alternatives like divorcing and maintaining two households or quitting your job/going part time (as long as you make a higher hourly wage than your housekeeper).

Also, I would argue that it isn’t any harder to teach kids to clean when you have a regular housekeeper. When you have this, then kids are used to things being clean, and they feel like that’s the way things ought to be, so they tolerate less mess. My kids were used to having a clean room, dusted and vacuumed, with a made bed and clothes put away. Now that they are older, and we don’t need a daily housekeeper anymore, when they have to clean their rooms, they only feel clean when they are dusted and vacuumed with made beds and clothes put away. Same goes for bathrooms, kitchen, etc. If it had been up to me, they would have spent their childhoods digging clean clothes from a huge pile in a hamper that I never completely got folded.

+1.

What about the disrespect he is showing you by outright refusing to perform a very reasonable request by you (doing his fair share of the cleaning)?

I don’t think it’s about respect. It’s not that he thinks that *I* should do the cleaning. He just doesn’t like to cook, clean, do laundry, or do yard work. He likes his work (as do I), and he likes being a husband and father. Why should he have to spend his leisure time doing laundry or mowing the lawn? Why should I have to?

I used to solve the problem by living in an apartment, no yard work, less cleaning and fixes are
Taken care of by property management.

Now we live in a house and our AC broke down, I am not lifting a finger as I have a higher heat tolerance, let’s see how long it takes
Him to do something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think implied in this conversation, but not expressly stated, is the belief that somehow, the wife can force the husband to do more if only she insists more, using the right words and logic.

But the wife can’t do that. She cannot make him do anything, full stop. A cleaning service is accepting it as true (which it is).

A husband who genuinely loves his wife and respects her as a person would change his ways after being shown how impossible it is for her to do everything (be a working mom and a SAHM who does 90% of child and house related tasks).

Stopping looking at it this way saved my marriage.

Agreed. This is not how men think at ALL.

I just don’t get why many men just don’t think they should have to clean. They will let their wife do the majority of it, and if she complains they will hire a cleaning service so other women can do it.

Often times the outsource is minority women.

And they go back to work to promote diversity, yikes.