S/o outsourcing cleaning as a relationship fix

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree, OP. And while everyone will disagree about exactly what has to be done outside of a regular cleaning person, to pretend the answer is “nothing” or “minimal” is still just missing the problem. And then of course, when you point it out, you get the ole “oh you’re just harping, that’s unnecessary” line which just further denegrates the work that (mostly women) are doing.

We are not particularly clean people. We don’t touch the bathrooms or vacuum between professional cleanings. We don’t make our bed. But still - the kitchen has to be taken care of after dinner each night (clearing the table, putting away leftovers, loading and running the dishwasher, washing pots and pans). The dishwasher has to be unloaded. The trash needs to be taken out on trash day. The mail has to be gotten and dealt with at least occasionally. Even if you send out laundry, it has to be put back in drawers. Even if you order groceries for delivery, the order needs to be placed and the groceries put away. Someone has to cook dinner. The laundry service, house cleaners, and childcare needs to be managed, paid, and communicated with. Kid logistics need to be deal with (scheduling, buying clothes, school stuff, finding camps, managing extracurriculars, etc).

Unless you have the funds to pay for essentially a full time house manager and cook, there is work to be done, and if one person won’t hold up his half it’s totally unfair and unacceptable, IMHO.

But none of the people saying outsource are saying the DH should do nothing. They’re all saying, in essence, if there are 24 hours of housekeeping to be done, outsourcing 12 of it leaves 6 for each parent. I can sign up to six. My DH can sign up to six. He would never sign up for 12, and I would certainly not do 24 so he could slack off. But I also wouldn’t add another two hours per week by saying the beds need to be made every day...

PP here. If this is the case, then outsourcing is fine advice. And it probably would work for couples where (to stick with your examples) the wife is doing 15 hours of work, the husband is doing seven, and the wife is frustrated both at the imbalance and that stuff is getting missed.

But that’s an example where the husband was already doing about a third of the work. It seems like for most of the situations we hear about on DCUM, the imbalance is much more extreme. 90/10, 80/20. And in those cases, even with outsourcing, the husband needs to step up and do his half. And I would strongly prioritize (and do, when I comment on those threads) a serious conversation with the husband, and marriage counseling if necessary, to get to a place where he understands and accepts that he has to do his half. If as part of that, a mutual decision is made to outsource some stuff, great. But I think what the OP is reacting to is responses to threads about husbands who do nothing or nearly nothing that just say “outsource it.” That is NOT going to solve the problem if the husband still thinks whatever’s left isn’t his problem.

Sorry, I mean to say the husband is going 7 hrs of work.

I am the poster you’re responding to. I agree marriages where one spouse is trying to skate by on 10/90 or 20/80 need more than cleaning help, but they need cleaning help because (again using the old numbers) the wife can’t do 24 hours on her own. For her own sanity and self care she needs to outsource the 12 so she has a shred of energy to figure out what to do with her loser spouse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only thing done daily in my house from your daily list is the dishes, and other than that, laundry (sent out) mail management and putting away groceries, our weekly cleaning service does it for $120/week.

And, I should think obviously, this does not mean we are “living in filth.”

What service do you use?

A lady referred to me by friends who hires additional cleaners under her. No website or anything.

[Anonymous]

Re budget. A friend and her husband lived in a 600 sq ft apartment. They hired a cleaning person. They were newly married. I asked, "why oh why are you hiring someone? What is so hard about cleaning this small space??" She said, "that's not the point. The point is I want this to always be a budget item. An item in our budget. I'm not doing it."

[Anonymous]

I think implied in this conversation, but not expressly stated, is the belief that somehow, the wife can force the husband to do more if only she insists more, using the right words and logic.

But the wife can’t do that. She cannot make him do anything, full stop. A cleaning service is accepting it as true (which it is).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think implied in this conversation, but not expressly stated, is the belief that somehow, the wife can force the husband to do more if only she insists more, using the right words and logic.

But the wife can’t do that. She cannot make him do anything, full stop. A cleaning service is accepting it as true (which it is).

+1 Honestly...like everything in marriage, the responsibility falls on the person who cares the most. And I can say that because I am a DW whose husband cares a great deal more about a clean house, so he hired a cleaning lady and spends a good amount of time cleaning on the weekends. I just don’t care as much, so I don’t even “see” some of the stuff he wants clean. The reverse is that I care a great deal about my children’s activities, so I am the one who taught them to read and math, and spend a lot of time visiting museums and parks. I don’t know if he‘s ever read a book to them; I read to them all the time. Bottom line: if you care, you‘ll be doing it. So accept this and rejoice or just. care. less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I divorced mine. Now I hired a cleaning service every other week, which he would have never allowed me to do. In between, we take care of the kitchen, the laundry, bathroom. I just spot clean floors. It really takes a burden off my busy schedule to know someone (not me!) will be doing a thorough cleaning every 2 weeks. Well worth the money, as a single, working mom.

I am happily married and we have a cleaning service twice a week. Are you sure the problem was not really the cleaning but the relationship itself?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think implied in this conversation, but not expressly stated, is the belief that somehow, the wife can force the husband to do more if only she insists more, using the right words and logic.

But the wife can’t do that. She cannot make him do anything, full stop. A cleaning service is accepting it as true (which it is).

+1 Honestly...like everything in marriage, the responsibility falls on the person who cares the most. And I can say that because I am a DW whose husband cares a great deal more about a clean house, so he hired a cleaning lady and spends a good amount of time cleaning on the weekends. I just don’t care as much, so I don’t even “see” some of the stuff he wants clean. The reverse is that I care a great deal about my children’s activities, so I am the one who taught them to read and math, and spend a lot of time visiting museums and parks. I don’t know if he‘s ever read a book to them; I read to them all the time. Bottom line: if you care, you‘ll be doing it. So accept this and rejoice or just. care. less.

He does the cleaning and you do the enrichment activity. It sounds like a good partnership.

[Anonymous]

It is a balance between relaxing your standards and raising them for your children. There is no reason you should be cleaning your kids bathroom. A home does not need to be vacuumed every day, get a roomba and deal with imperfect vacuuming. Grocery shopping is once a week and bring a kid or your dh. It isn’t that hard.

[Anonymous]

We have cleaning people come on Mondays and Thursdays. We rinse off dishes and silverware and put them in the dishwasher and run/empty it. If something spills we clean it up. We're not messy people though so it's not as if there are crumbs on the floor after each meal.

I do one load of laundry a week, and so does DH. The cleaning people do all linens and the nanny does the kids' clothes. We would vacuum if we saw visible dirt but otherwise think twice a week is fine.

We generally have groceries delivered when the nanny is there, so that's how groceries are put away. Dh or I sort mail/pay bills once a week. But we autopay and streamline as much as we possibly can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with you OP and I hate this suggestion. Not just because not everyone can afford cleaners.

So much of the problem is that most men are not raised to clean well. My DH simply did not know how to clean when I met him. He could do dishes and the laundry, but he doesn't really know how to clean a house on a basic level. He doesn't know what cleaning solutions you need for different surfaces, or whether you scrub or wipe something down. He is inefficient when he cleans. His parents did not make him or his brother clean when they were growing up beyond straightening up their rooms and cleaning the kitchen after dinner. And in his case, this 100% a gender thing (though that's there too) -- truthfully no one in his family is that good at cleaning.

But the other problem is that men get taught that being dirty and gross is masculine. Like they are taught to associate cleanliness with femininity and to want to avoid feminine things. It is truly one of the most basic behaviors of toxic masculinity. I've discussed it with my DH and he knows he has this kind of visceral reaction to cleaning that comes from messed up ideas he was taught about gender. And not just from his parents. Society in general has this idea that boys can and should be dirty, that a bachelor's house or a frat house is going to be gross and that's not only okay but kind of funny and good. There is not really any social consequence for men if they are perceived as dirty, whereas a young woman who is dirty and unkempt is considered abnormal and might even be shunned.

When families just outsource cleaning instead of teaching all of their children how to clean and care for their homes and their bodies, it doesn't change any of this. Especially because the people coming to clean their homes are almost universally women (and often women of color and/or immigrants, which is not a dynamic we can ignore) so it just reinforces the idea that cleaning is something women do. And worse, it reinforces the idea that cleaning is something that "other" women, who have less money and are less privileged, do.

We are only making it worse. Our husbands have to learn to clean, and we have to hold them accountable for it, and we all have to teach our kids to do it.

All of this is true. I want my kids to learn to clean. We can do it together. It’s family time and cleaning time. And while we aren’t living in filth, my standards are pretty forgiving. Like this weekend? Family party. No big cleaning. I still did domestic labor or childcare from 6-10 am before my first break.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't do your list daily. M-F I do about a load of laundry per day and kids fold if they want TV time, we clean the kitchen after dinner together, and run the dishwasher before bed. DH unloads it in the morning when he gets up. We have cleaners every other week so on the weeks without we do the floors and bathrooms on the weekend, and again, the kids have to help.

If your kids are old enough to have pubes not only can they clean their own bathroom, but they can make their own bed and help with those other chores. You are doing them a disservice for when they move out and suddenly realize that beds do not make themselves, and bathrooms need to be cleaned.

Lol that forty year old men cannot be forced to clean a bathroom to some decent standard but you like 14 you can?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't do your list daily. M-F I do about a load of laundry per day and kids fold if they want TV time, we clean the kitchen after dinner together, and run the dishwasher before bed. DH unloads it in the morning when he gets up. We have cleaners every other week so on the weeks without we do the floors and bathrooms on the weekend, and again, the kids have to help.

If your kids are old enough to have pubes not only can they clean their own bathroom, but they can make their own bed and help with those other chores. You are doing them a disservice for when they move out and suddenly realize that beds do not make themselves, and bathrooms need to be cleaned.

Lol that forty year old men cannot be forced to clean a bathroom to some decent standard but you like 14 you can?

LOL that you can't read... and my DH carries his weight. "*We* clean the kitchen... *DH* unloads the dishwasher... *We* do the floors and bathrooms..." The 40 year old AND children are cleaning bathrooms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m kind of with you, OP.
Outsourcing to a cleaner every other week helps somewhat, but it isn’t that helpful. If we were really only talking about 4 hours/wk of work, then all of this complaining would be ridiculous.
But outsourcing daily cleaning really isn’t that expensive. It’s not cheap, but it’s considerably less expensive than other alternatives like divorcing and maintaining two households or quitting your job/going part time (as long as you make a higher hourly wage than your housekeeper).

Also, I would argue that it isn’t any harder to teach kids to clean when you have a regular housekeeper. When you have this, then kids are used to things being clean, and they feel like that’s the way things ought to be, so they tolerate less mess. My kids were used to having a clean room, dusted and vacuumed, with a made bed and clothes put away. Now that they are older, and we don’t need a daily housekeeper anymore, when they have to clean their rooms, they only feel clean when they are dusted and vacuumed with made beds and clothes put away. Same goes for bathrooms, kitchen, etc. If it had been up to me, they would have spent their childhoods digging clean clothes from a huge pile in a hamper that I never completely got folded.

+1.

What about the disrespect he is showing you by outright refusing to perform a very reasonable request by you (doing his fair share of the cleaning)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The only thing done daily in my house from your daily list is the dishes, and other than that, laundry (sent out) mail management and putting away groceries, our weekly cleaning service does it for $120/week.

And, I should think obviously, this does not mean we are “living in filth.”

You don’t make your bed every day? What about crumbs, dust, hair, and dirt brought in from the outside by shoes/clothes or a dog? If you’re living with kids or an animal, you need daily vacuuming and sweeping.

Sorry but I think that’s living in filth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree, OP. And while everyone will disagree about exactly what has to be done outside of a regular cleaning person, to pretend the answer is “nothing” or “minimal” is still just missing the problem. And then of course, when you point it out, you get the ole “oh you’re just harping, that’s unnecessary” line which just further denegrates the work that (mostly women) are doing.

We are not particularly clean people. We don’t touch the bathrooms or vacuum between professional cleanings. We don’t make our bed. But still - the kitchen has to be taken care of after dinner each night (clearing the table, putting away leftovers, loading and running the dishwasher, washing pots and pans). The dishwasher has to be unloaded. The trash needs to be taken out on trash day. The mail has to be gotten and dealt with at least occasionally. Even if you send out laundry, it has to be put back in drawers. Even if you order groceries for delivery, the order needs to be placed and the groceries put away. Someone has to cook dinner. The laundry service, house cleaners, and childcare needs to be managed, paid, and communicated with. Kid logistics need to be deal with (scheduling, buying clothes, school stuff, finding camps, managing extracurriculars, etc).

Unless you have the funds to pay for essentially a full time house manager and cook, there is work to be done, and if one person won’t hold up his half it’s totally unfair and unacceptable, IMHO.

But none of the people saying outsource are saying the DH should do nothing. They’re all saying, in essence, if there are 24 hours of housekeeping to be done, outsourcing 12 of it leaves 6 for each parent. I can sign up to six. My DH can sign up to six. He would never sign up for 12, and I would certainly not do 24 so he could slack off. But I also wouldn’t add another two hours per week by saying the beds need to be made every day...

PP here. If this is the case, then outsourcing is fine advice. And it probably would work for couples where (to stick with your examples) the wife is doing 15 hours of work, the husband is doing six, and the wife is frustrated both at the imbalance and that stuff is getting missed.

But that’s an example where the husband was already doing about a third of the work. It seems like for most of the situations we hear about on DCUM, the imbalance is much more extreme. 90/10, 80/20. And in those cases, even with outsourcing, the husband needs to step up and do his half. And I would strongly prioritize (and do, when I comment on those threads) a serious conversation with the husband, and marriage counseling if necessary, to get to a place where he understands and accepts that he has to do his half. If as part of that, a mutual decision is made to outsource some stuff, great. But I think what the OP is reacting to is responses to threads about husbands who do nothing or nearly nothing that just say “outsource it.” That is NOT going to solve the problem if the husband still thinks whatever’s left isn’t his problem.

Exactly. And if you’re the wife in that situation, with a husband who does nothing and refuses to change, so you turn to outsourcing his part out of desperation - I hope you are paying for it out of his “fun” money.