S/o outsourcing cleaning as a relationship fix

[Anonymous]

Maybe if you did a little more sex he would feel more relaxed at the end of the day to do chores around the house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Much of your list really doesn’t have to be done every day. Unmade beds are not a crime (are in fact more hygienic) groceries aren’t delivered daily, mail can sit on a shelf for a couple days without producing radioactivity, and perhaps my husband and I are outliers but our floors are not littered with pubes...

The point of outsourcing cleaning help and why I always suggest it has nothing to do with giving men an out on doing their half, it’s on making the whole smaller so both partners have less on their plate. We have finite time, we both work full time jobs, time with each other and our daughter is inherently of greater value than time scrubbing a toilet. It is also about avoiding sources of conflict. I have a daughter, and if she has no memories of her parents fighting over who takes out the trash, that’s a win in my book. I also consider it a win if she is raised without the Insane and deeply sexist idea that cleaning a house is a better use of her time than reading a book, taking a walk, connecting with her spouse and child/ren etc.

I was raised by someone who thought the house had to be ready for inspection at a moments notice. Every dish washed within ten minutes of a meal being finished. She used to vacuum on the way out the door to vacation. My dad begged her to have a daily maid and she refused. How many memories do you want your kids to have of you mopping vs. playing with them?

boy, it sure is NICE for my DH to have only fun memories with DS, meanwhile I am at home doing all the chores he literally refuses to do. (Like - actually literally says he won’t ever do.)

You are compounding the problem. Your son will think housekeeping is something only women do and he will “refuse” as well. If your son thinks housekeeping is something part of the household budget you will at least have improved on his father (who sounds like a real winner...)

Sure but that only works if the partner who wants the cleaner house is willing to live with a house that gets pretty dirty between professional cleanings. You can argue that a dirty house is better than any arguing over who has to wipe the toilet between professional cleanings. But I would guess OP doesn't think it's acceptable to have a bathroom full of sticky pubes and pee on the floor for however long it takes for the cleaners to come back. So either the cleaners come back more often - which isn't always financially feasible - or someone in the household is wiping up pee and pubes between cleanings.

I'd argue that getting the kids to do it would be the right answer - at least for that one bathroom. This helps teach them to make cleaning part of their routine, and has some accountability for being disgusting in the bathroom - and it'll teach them well for later in life. They, then, hopefully won't have a spouse posting here about how their partner leaves a disgusting mess in the bathroom and expects them to take care of it.

I would also say that it's best if you can find a reasonable division of labor outside of that. Perhaps the husband can do the dishes, and you can make sure the bathrooms are clean enough. Or something like that. In our house it's tht my husband is in charge of keeping the kitchen clean (including dishes) - and I leave him alone to do it; I do NOT micromanage how and when the dishes get cleaned - and I do most of the pet care, including cleaning the litterbox and cleaning up cat puke. It works for us. I do have to clean his bathroom between professional cleanings, though - we have two; it's essential in our marriage - because he has some physical limitations and can't bend down to actually get the pee off the floor. It's been a long battle in our marriage and finally I just realized that we would both be happier if I just did it without having it be a big thing we have to talk about and negotiate all the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with you OP and I hate this suggestion. Not just because not everyone can afford cleaners.

So much of the problem is that most men are not raised to clean well. My DH simply did not know how to clean when I met him. He could do dishes and the laundry, but he doesn't really know how to clean a house on a basic level. He doesn't know what cleaning solutions you need for different surfaces, or whether you scrub or wipe something down. He is inefficient when he cleans. His parents did not make him or his brother clean when they were growing up beyond straightening up their rooms and cleaning the kitchen after dinner. And in his case, this 100% a gender thing (though that's there too) -- truthfully no one in his family is that good at cleaning.

But the other problem is that men get taught that being dirty and gross is masculine. Like they are taught to associate cleanliness with femininity and to want to avoid feminine things. It is truly one of the most basic behaviors of toxic masculinity. I've discussed it with my DH and he knows he has this kind of visceral reaction to cleaning that comes from messed up ideas he was taught about gender. And not just from his parents. Society in general has this idea that boys can and should be dirty, that a bachelor's house or a frat house is going to be gross and that's not only okay but kind of funny and good. There is not really any social consequence for men if they are perceived as dirty, whereas a young woman who is dirty and unkempt is considered abnormal and might even be shunned.

When families just outsource cleaning instead of teaching all of their children how to clean and care for their homes and their bodies, it doesn't change any of this. Especially because the people coming to clean their homes are almost universally women (and often women of color and/or immigrants, which is not a dynamic we can ignore) so it just reinforces the idea that cleaning is something women do. And worse, it reinforces the idea that cleaning is something that "other" women, who have less money and are less privileged, do.

We are only making it worse. Our husbands have to learn to clean, and we have to hold them accountable for it, and we all have to teach our kids to do it.

This is a great post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I see this mentioned in EVERY thread where the woman is complaining about having to do more house chores than her husband. We all know this is reality for many couples but the proposed solution is always to outsource cleaning rather than force the DH to do his fair share. I have some practical/logistical issues with this as an actual solution.

First, most people don’t have the extra money for weekly cleaning or even e/o week. But even if you do, there are still chores that need to be done EVERY day. Dishes, laundry, making the beds, sweeping/vacuuming highly used areas (kitchens, living rooms, entry ways), sorting and filing mail, putting groceries away, etc. Now that my kids are older, I find that I have to clean the bathrooms every few days or they get seriously gross from the pubic hair they inadvertently leave on the floor, dirt or soap rings in the bathtub, pee stains on the toilet rim, etc. etc. I would be embarrassed for a guest to use their bathroom and see it so dirty. So I have to clean it every two days or so.

Who is doing those things? Are you just letting it pile up for the housekeeper once a week? Do most people just live in filth rather than make the husband help clean up after the household he is part of?

I seriously do not understand how anything short of hiring a daily cleaner (which obviously most people cannot afford) would fix the problem where the DH does no cleaning. Make this make sense, lol.

Having a house cleaner doesn't get rid of all the housework. It just significantly lightens the load so you can do other things.

My husband and I alternate cooking dinner. Whoever doesn't cook, cleans up.
We all spend time wiping up in the kitchen. Counters especially, but also spills or crumbs on the floor.
We all (kids included) clean up after ourselves in the bathrooms.
I vacuum when there is extra dirt.
We all do our own laundry. Kids included.

But we don't have to do any of the heavy cleaning, which is pure heaven as far as I'm concerned.

[Anonymous]

I’m kind of with you, OP.
Outsourcing to a cleaner every other week helps somewhat, but it isn’t that helpful. If we were really only talking about 4 hours/wk of work, then all of this complaining would be ridiculous.
But outsourcing daily cleaning really isn’t that expensive. It’s not cheap, but it’s considerably less expensive than other alternatives like divorcing and maintaining two households or quitting your job/going part time (as long as you make a higher hourly wage than your housekeeper).

Also, I would argue that it isn’t any harder to teach kids to clean when you have a regular housekeeper. When you have this, then kids are used to things being clean, and they feel like that’s the way things ought to be, so they tolerate less mess. My kids were used to having a clean room, dusted and vacuumed, with a made bed and clothes put away. Now that they are older, and we don’t need a daily housekeeper anymore, when they have to clean their rooms, they only feel clean when they are dusted and vacuumed with made beds and clothes put away. Same goes for bathrooms, kitchen, etc. If it had been up to me, they would have spent their childhoods digging clean clothes from a huge pile in a hamper that I never completely got folded.

[Anonymous]

I agree, OP. And while everyone will disagree about exactly what has to be done outside of a regular cleaning person, to pretend the answer is “nothing” or “minimal” is still just missing the problem. And then of course, when you point it out, you get the ole “oh you’re just harping, that’s unnecessary” line which just further denegrates the work that (mostly women) are doing.

We are not particularly clean people. We don’t touch the bathrooms or vacuum between professional cleanings. We don’t make our bed. But still - the kitchen has to be taken care of after dinner each night (clearing the table, putting away leftovers, loading and running the dishwasher, washing pots and pans). The dishwasher has to be unloaded. The trash needs to be taken out on trash day. The mail has to be gotten and dealt with at least occasionally. Even if you send out laundry, it has to be put back in drawers. Even if you order groceries for delivery, the order needs to be placed and the groceries put away. Someone has to cook dinner. The laundry service, house cleaners, and childcare needs to be managed, paid, and communicated with. Kid logistics need to be deal with (scheduling, buying clothes, school stuff, finding camps, managing extracurriculars, etc).

Unless you have the funds to pay for essentially a full time house manager and cook, there is work to be done, and if one person won’t hold up his half it’s totally unfair and unacceptable, IMHO.

[Anonymous]

OP, you realize that by cleaning up your teens messes you're raising another generation of people who don't clean up their stuff. My DH is such a great helper around the house because his parents expected that out of him. Our 8 year old knows that if he makes a mess in the bathroom, he's expected to clean it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree, OP. And while everyone will disagree about exactly what has to be done outside of a regular cleaning person, to pretend the answer is “nothing” or “minimal” is still just missing the problem. And then of course, when you point it out, you get the ole “oh you’re just harping, that’s unnecessary” line which just further denegrates the work that (mostly women) are doing.

We are not particularly clean people. We don’t touch the bathrooms or vacuum between professional cleanings. We don’t make our bed. But still - the kitchen has to be taken care of after dinner each night (clearing the table, putting away leftovers, loading and running the dishwasher, washing pots and pans). The dishwasher has to be unloaded. The trash needs to be taken out on trash day. The mail has to be gotten and dealt with at least occasionally. Even if you send out laundry, it has to be put back in drawers. Even if you order groceries for delivery, the order needs to be placed and the groceries put away. Someone has to cook dinner. The laundry service, house cleaners, and childcare needs to be managed, paid, and communicated with. Kid logistics need to be deal with (scheduling, buying clothes, school stuff, finding camps, managing extracurriculars, etc).

Unless you have the funds to pay for essentially a full time house manager and cook, there is work to be done, and if one person won’t hold up his half it’s totally unfair and unacceptable, IMHO.

But none of the people saying outsource are saying the DH should do nothing. They’re all saying, in essence, if there are 24 hours of housekeeping to be done, outsourcing 12 of it leaves 6 for each parent. I can sign up to six. My DH can sign up to six. He would never sign up for 12, and I would certainly not do 24 so he could slack off. But I also wouldn’t add another two hours per week by saying the beds need to be made every day...

[Anonymous]

I divorced mine. Now I hired a cleaning service every other week, which he would have never allowed me to do. In between, we take care of the kitchen, the laundry, bathroom. I just spot clean floors. It really takes a burden off my busy schedule to know someone (not me!) will be doing a thorough cleaning every 2 weeks. Well worth the money, as a single, working mom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m kind of with you, OP.
Outsourcing to a cleaner every other week helps somewhat, but it isn’t that helpful. If we were really only talking about 4 hours/wk of work, then all of this complaining would be ridiculous.
But outsourcing daily cleaning really isn’t that expensive. It’s not cheap, but it’s considerably less expensive than other alternatives like divorcing and maintaining two households or quitting your job/going part time (as long as you make a higher hourly wage than your housekeeper).

Also, I would argue that it isn’t any harder to teach kids to clean when you have a regular housekeeper. When you have this, then kids are used to things being clean, and they feel like that’s the way things ought to be, so they tolerate less mess. My kids were used to having a clean room, dusted and vacuumed, with a made bed and clothes put away. Now that they are older, and we don’t need a daily housekeeper anymore, when they have to clean their rooms, they only feel clean when they are dusted and vacuumed with made beds and clothes put away. Same goes for bathrooms, kitchen, etc. If it had been up to me, they would have spent their childhoods digging clean clothes from a huge pile in a hamper that I never completely got folded.

+1.

[Anonymous]

When wife returned to workforce, key to my relationship fix was dividing the household work into 4 lists: stuff that she does, stuff that he does, stuff that gets outsourced, and stuff that just will need to go undone. The first 2 lists should be roughly “equal” and ideally each partner is doing the things they enjoy most / hate the least.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree, OP. And while everyone will disagree about exactly what has to be done outside of a regular cleaning person, to pretend the answer is “nothing” or “minimal” is still just missing the problem. And then of course, when you point it out, you get the ole “oh you’re just harping, that’s unnecessary” line which just further denegrates the work that (mostly women) are doing.

We are not particularly clean people. We don’t touch the bathrooms or vacuum between professional cleanings. We don’t make our bed. But still - the kitchen has to be taken care of after dinner each night (clearing the table, putting away leftovers, loading and running the dishwasher, washing pots and pans). The dishwasher has to be unloaded. The trash needs to be taken out on trash day. The mail has to be gotten and dealt with at least occasionally. Even if you send out laundry, it has to be put back in drawers. Even if you order groceries for delivery, the order needs to be placed and the groceries put away. Someone has to cook dinner. The laundry service, house cleaners, and childcare needs to be managed, paid, and communicated with. Kid logistics need to be deal with (scheduling, buying clothes, school stuff, finding camps, managing extracurriculars, etc).

Unless you have the funds to pay for essentially a full time house manager and cook, there is work to be done, and if one person won’t hold up his half it’s totally unfair and unacceptable, IMHO.

But none of the people saying outsource are saying the DH should do nothing. They’re all saying, in essence, if there are 24 hours of housekeeping to be done, outsourcing 12 of it leaves 6 for each parent. I can sign up to six. My DH can sign up to six. He would never sign up for 12, and I would certainly not do 24 so he could slack off. But I also wouldn’t add another two hours per week by saying the beds need to be made every day...

PP here. If this is the case, then outsourcing is fine advice. And it probably would work for couples where (to stick with your examples) the wife is doing 15 hours of work, the husband is doing six, and the wife is frustrated both at the imbalance and that stuff is getting missed.

But that’s an example where the husband was already doing about a third of the work. It seems like for most of the situations we hear about on DCUM, the imbalance is much more extreme. 90/10, 80/20. And in those cases, even with outsourcing, the husband needs to step up and do his half. And I would strongly prioritize (and do, when I comment on those threads) a serious conversation with the husband, and marriage counseling if necessary, to get to a place where he understands and accepts that he has to do his half. If as part of that, a mutual decision is made to outsource some stuff, great. But I think what the OP is reacting to is responses to threads about husbands who do nothing or nearly nothing that just say “outsource it.” That is NOT going to solve the problem if the husband still thinks whatever’s left isn’t his problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The only thing done daily in my house from your daily list is the dishes, and other than that, laundry (sent out) mail management and putting away groceries, our weekly cleaning service does it for $120/week.

And, I should think obviously, this does not mean we are “living in filth.”

What service do you use?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree, OP. And while everyone will disagree about exactly what has to be done outside of a regular cleaning person, to pretend the answer is “nothing” or “minimal” is still just missing the problem. And then of course, when you point it out, you get the ole “oh you’re just harping, that’s unnecessary” line which just further denegrates the work that (mostly women) are doing.

We are not particularly clean people. We don’t touch the bathrooms or vacuum between professional cleanings. We don’t make our bed. But still - the kitchen has to be taken care of after dinner each night (clearing the table, putting away leftovers, loading and running the dishwasher, washing pots and pans). The dishwasher has to be unloaded. The trash needs to be taken out on trash day. The mail has to be gotten and dealt with at least occasionally. Even if you send out laundry, it has to be put back in drawers. Even if you order groceries for delivery, the order needs to be placed and the groceries put away. Someone has to cook dinner. The laundry service, house cleaners, and childcare needs to be managed, paid, and communicated with. Kid logistics need to be deal with (scheduling, buying clothes, school stuff, finding camps, managing extracurriculars, etc).

Unless you have the funds to pay for essentially a full time house manager and cook, there is work to be done, and if one person won’t hold up his half it’s totally unfair and unacceptable, IMHO.

But none of the people saying outsource are saying the DH should do nothing. They’re all saying, in essence, if there are 24 hours of housekeeping to be done, outsourcing 12 of it leaves 6 for each parent. I can sign up to six. My DH can sign up to six. He would never sign up for 12, and I would certainly not do 24 so he could slack off. But I also wouldn’t add another two hours per week by saying the beds need to be made every day...

PP here. If this is the case, then outsourcing is fine advice. And it probably would work for couples where (to stick with your examples) the wife is doing 15 hours of work, the husband is doing seven, and the wife is frustrated both at the imbalance and that stuff is getting missed.

But that’s an example where the husband was already doing about a third of the work. It seems like for most of the situations we hear about on DCUM, the imbalance is much more extreme. 90/10, 80/20. And in those cases, even with outsourcing, the husband needs to step up and do his half. And I would strongly prioritize (and do, when I comment on those threads) a serious conversation with the husband, and marriage counseling if necessary, to get to a place where he understands and accepts that he has to do his half. If as part of that, a mutual decision is made to outsource some stuff, great. But I think what the OP is reacting to is responses to threads about husbands who do nothing or nearly nothing that just say “outsource it.” That is NOT going to solve the problem if the husband still thinks whatever’s left isn’t his problem.

Sorry, I mean to say the husband is going 7 hrs of work.

[Anonymous]

extra money for weekly cleaning or even e/o week.

No, you make it a budget priority. Divorce is more expensive. Counseling to fix a poor home life situation is expensive. Your complaining takes a toll, also a monetary toll.