A theory about "tough love" friends

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many women these days only want to hear what they want to hear. The truth is too hard to hear.

So true. Just look at all the threads in this forum. Flames and smoke everywhere, but the majority of women want to dive right into the flames, which is fine but these type of women are never satisfied with keeping their bad choices and the consequences of their bad choices to themselves.s Oh no they want to beg for advice for hours , and then get pissy when it's not what they want to hear ( he's totally awesome and loves you) and then when it goes to shit want to be mad at everybody but thmselves. Middle school shit. I swear most women do not mature past middle school.

100%. I'm the PP with the friend who married the wrong guy and it all blew up in short order. She wanted the fun party guy because only "boring" guys had 9-5 jobs and wore suits to work. So she married the man child who wanted to become a pro athlete, never was able to, had no college education, and no career prospects and she was soon upset and disappointed that he had no money and she paid all the bills. There were so many warning signs but she ignored them all because she was ready to be married and wanted the big wedding. What are you supposed to say in situations like that? "You go girl?" Or, "maybe you should think this through". I would think a better friend would ask some hard questions than just be blindly supportive if you really were looking out for them.

Again, this woman was never your "friend". You were not giving her tough love. You were simply telling her, out loud, that you did not like or respect her. You obviously think she's an idiot and never liked her. I am sorry you got into an argument with this woman you don't like about her life choices, but you two weren't friends so I don't know why you cared anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many women these days only want to hear what they want to hear. The truth is too hard to hear.

So true. Just look at all the threads in this forum. Flames and smoke everywhere, but the majority of women want to dive right into the flames, which is fine but these type of women are never satisfied with keeping their bad choices and the consequences of their bad choices to themselves.s Oh no they want to beg for advice for hours , and then get pissy when it's not what they want to hear ( he's totally awesome and loves you) and then when it goes to shit want to be mad at everybody but thmselves. Middle school shit. I swear most women do not mature past middle school.

100%. I'm the PP with the friend who married the wrong guy and it all blew up in short order. She wanted the fun party guy because only "boring" guys had 9-5 jobs and wore suits to work. So she married the man child who wanted to become a pro athlete, never was able to, had no college education, and no career prospects and she was soon upset and disappointed that he had no money and she paid all the bills. There were so many warning signs but she ignored them all because she was ready to be married and wanted the big wedding. What are you supposed to say in situations like that? "You go girl?" Or, "maybe you should think this through". I would think a better friend would ask some hard questions than just be blindly supportive if you really were looking out for them.

Again, this woman was never your "friend". You were not giving her tough love. You were simply telling her, out loud, that you did not like or respect her. You obviously think she's an idiot and never liked her. I am sorry you got into an argument with this woman you don't like about her life choices, but you two weren't friends so I don't know why you cared anyway.

Sorry, but you're wrong. We were friends for years after this event. The friendship fizzled for other reasons a few years later. There was no "argument" there were some discussion and I was maid of honor. Stop projecting.

[Anonymous]

You should except the fact you have someone real in your life to give you the hard facts. Most people don't care enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The people who are so.impressed with themselves when they proudly crow "I just tell it like it is!!" in reality just want license to be a jackass without repercussions.

This. Also, they are unwilling to admit that this “truth-telling” they are doing is just a strong opinion. Most of the stuff people dole out tough love about doesn’t have an objective truth— it’s always subjective. You should usually tread lightly when it comes to other people’s choices.

Yeah. I think everyone doles out "tough love" on occasion, but only certain people use it as an identity badge.

The former is fine, even a kindness. The latter, not so much.

Very well stated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many women these days only want to hear what they want to hear. The truth is too hard to hear.

So true. Just look at all the threads in this forum. Flames and smoke everywhere, but the majority of women want to dive right into the flames, which is fine but these type of women are never satisfied with keeping their bad choices and the consequences of their bad choices to themselves.s Oh no they want to beg for advice for hours , and then get pissy when it's not what they want to hear ( he's totally awesome and loves you) and then when it goes to shit want to be mad at everybody but thmselves. Middle school shit. I swear most women do not mature past middle school.

100%. I'm the PP with the friend who married the wrong guy and it all blew up in short order. She wanted the fun party guy because only "boring" guys had 9-5 jobs and wore suits to work. So she married the man child who wanted to become a pro athlete, never was able to, had no college education, and no career prospects and she was soon upset and disappointed that he had no money and she paid all the bills. There were so many warning signs but she ignored them all because she was ready to be married and wanted the big wedding. What are you supposed to say in situations like that? "You go girl?" Or, "maybe you should think this through". I would think a better friend would ask some hard questions than just be blindly supportive if you really were looking out for them.

Again, this woman was never your "friend". You were not giving her tough love. You were simply telling her, out loud, that you did not like or respect her. You obviously think she's an idiot and never liked her. I am sorry you got into an argument with this woman you don't like about her life choices, but you two weren't friends so I don't know why you cared anyway.

Sorry, but you're wrong. We were friends for years after this event. The friendship fizzled for other reasons a few years later. There was no "argument" there were some discussion and I was maid of honor. Stop projecting.

No one is projecting. You’re a contemptuous person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many women these days only want to hear what they want to hear. The truth is too hard to hear.

So true. Just look at all the threads in this forum. Flames and smoke everywhere, but the majority of women want to dive right into the flames, which is fine but these type of women are never satisfied with keeping their bad choices and the consequences of their bad choices to themselves.s Oh no they want to beg for advice for hours , and then get pissy when it's not what they want to hear ( he's totally awesome and loves you) and then when it goes to shit want to be mad at everybody but thmselves. Middle school shit. I swear most women do not mature past middle school.

100%. I'm the PP with the friend who married the wrong guy and it all blew up in short order. She wanted the fun party guy because only "boring" guys had 9-5 jobs and wore suits to work. So she married the man child who wanted to become a pro athlete, never was able to, had no college education, and no career prospects and she was soon upset and disappointed that he had no money and she paid all the bills. There were so many warning signs but she ignored them all because she was ready to be married and wanted the big wedding. What are you supposed to say in situations like that? "You go girl?" Or, "maybe you should think this through". I would think a better friend would ask some hard questions than just be blindly supportive if you really were looking out for them.

Again, this woman was never your "friend". You were not giving her tough love. You were simply telling her, out loud, that you did not like or respect her. You obviously think she's an idiot and never liked her. I am sorry you got into an argument with this woman you don't like about her life choices, but you two weren't friends so I don't know why you cared anyway.

Sorry, but you're wrong. We were friends for years after this event. The friendship fizzled for other reasons a few years later. There was no "argument" there were some discussion and I was maid of honor. Stop projecting.

No one is projecting. You’re a contemptuous person.

And you have shallow superficial friendships. Grow up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many women these days only want to hear what they want to hear. The truth is too hard to hear.

So true. Just look at all the threads in this forum. Flames and smoke everywhere, but the majority of women want to dive right into the flames, which is fine but these type of women are never satisfied with keeping their bad choices and the consequences of their bad choices to themselves.s Oh no they want to beg for advice for hours , and then get pissy when it's not what they want to hear ( he's totally awesome and loves you) and then when it goes to shit want to be mad at everybody but thmselves. Middle school shit. I swear most women do not mature past middle school.

100%. I'm the PP with the friend who married the wrong guy and it all blew up in short order. She wanted the fun party guy because only "boring" guys had 9-5 jobs and wore suits to work. So she married the man child who wanted to become a pro athlete, never was able to, had no college education, and no career prospects and she was soon upset and disappointed that he had no money and she paid all the bills. There were so many warning signs but she ignored them all because she was ready to be married and wanted the big wedding. What are you supposed to say in situations like that? "You go girl?" Or, "maybe you should think this through". I would think a better friend would ask some hard questions than just be blindly supportive if you really were looking out for them.

Again, this woman was never your "friend". You were not giving her tough love. You were simply telling her, out loud, that you did not like or respect her. You obviously think she's an idiot and never liked her. I am sorry you got into an argument with this woman you don't like about her life choices, but you two weren't friends so I don't know why you cared anyway.

Sorry, but you're wrong. We were friends for years after this event. The friendship fizzled for other reasons a few years later. There was no "argument" there were some discussion and I was maid of honor. Stop projecting.

No one is projecting. You’re a contemptuous person.

And you have shallow superficial friendships. Grow up.

You’re not intellectually able to have any form of friendship, or discussion. No one was projecting. You then turn to name-calling. No one would miss you out of their life - that’s cause for celebration. And you can cram your wannabe retort. OP and subsequent posters have described your personality well, and it angers you. Oh well!

[Anonymous]

I would not want a “tough love” friend.

I sometimes need to vent, cry or just be heard.
And I would crave unconditional support in return.

That is the true definition of friendship.
A friend is someone who knows ALL about you.
Your strengths, your weaknesses + your quirks.
But they support you no matter what.
And they do not judge. 👯‍♀️

[Anonymous]

OP and the PP with the divorced friend are both oversimplifying something that is very complex.

As with basically everything in life, people are different. Some people need/thrive on tough love, some shut down and feel extremely hurt by it. If you are someone's friend, you know what kind of person they are, and you can choose when/how to dole out your honest opinions in ways that are constructive.

There are bad people on both sides of this equation. The 'tough love' friend who uses that as an excuse to put down their friend constantly as an outlet for their own insecurity sucks. And many versions of her exist!

The 'poor put upon' friend who's friend is mean to her can also be an emotional vacuum that complains about literally everything, all the time, and wants everyone to sit around and indulge her drama or else they are all 'mean girls,' she sucks too!

And these are just archetypes and there is plenty of grey area in between.

I think I used to be a tough love friend. And it is mostly because I am just incapable of giving false platitudes. It actually came from a very deep place of loving the person and wanting to help them. But I realized somewhere along the way that everyone is on their own journey and honestly, I don't know everything! I don't know them better than they know themselves. I still do not give false platitudes, but I also don't say when I think someone is making a mistake.

The friend I feel like I fell most into this dynamic with I am not friends with anymore. She was a sensitive and emotional person who, in addition to complaining about everything in her life, constantly, did virtually nothing to change her life, ever. She was/is a kind and good hearted person, the person who always texts you on holidays and remembers her kid's birthdays, but actually spending time with her was just an exercise in holding my tongue. Because I'd been listening to her gripe about the same stuff for like 15 years. We're not really friends now, mostly because she actually did start making changes and really changed her life. I think she's a lot happier. And I think she put me in the bucket that OP put me in. I'm certainly not responsible for her changes, she did them and she did them after our friendship faded; it had nothing to do with me. But I think when she looks at me she resents that I was right about some things, and feels that even if I was, nothing I said actually put her on the path to making them. Which is fair. But like the PP, I feel like she was blind to how that constant self inflicted misery made her a bad friend to me during my struggles. That the resentment goes both ways.

Anyway, we are BOTH better off without each other. We brought out something bad in each other. That doesn't mean I dislike her or don't respect her, but I can see that the part of me she brought out was not my best. It wasn't my most compassionate. And what I brought out in her, a retreat further into victimhood, that was not the best of her.

I agree that if you are the source of a neverending stream of 'tough love' that there likely is some self examination you could be doing. If nothing else, clearly the friendship is sick, maybe you showing that tough friend insufficient compassion and love is making them feel like you don't deserve that from them. Or maybe they are a B. Who knows, but people are usually pretty complex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would not want a “tough love” friend.

I sometimes need to vent, cry or just be heard.
And I would crave unconditional support in return.

That is the true definition of friendship.
A friend is someone who knows ALL about you.
Your strengths, your weaknesses + your quirks.
But they support you no matter what.
And they do not judge. 👯‍♀️

A true friend tells you the truth and doesn't just cosign everything you do. Telling you the truth doesn't mean they are judging you or that they don't support you. In fact supporting someone doesn't mean telling them everything they do is great when it's aeful

[Anonymous]

The options are not either tough love or false platitudes. I understand why people think this but I just want to let you know there are other options. I think often the problem is that we always think people are looking for advice or directives. We think our job as a friend is to weigh in, to either agree or disagree, to confirm that a course of action is a good idea or try to dissuade our friend if we think it's a bad idea.

I don't think that's our job as friend. We're not career coaches. We are not mentors. We are no one's boss or mother or older sister. We aren't guides. We are friends.

So what's the other option? Well let's take an example from the thread. Say you have a friend who is in a relationship that isn't abusive but is also not serving her at all. Their personalities don't seem to match up, and worse, you feel like your friend is changing who she is to accommodate this guy who doesn't even seem to treat her or appreciate her. So what do you do? If you genuinely love your friend, how do you help?

False Platitude approach: "He seems great! I'm so happy for you! He might not be the right go for me but I'm sure you guys will be really happy together. All relationships require compromise. I am totally supportive of you in marrying this guy!"

Tough Love approach: "I'll be honest, I don't get what you see in him. He's lazy, he's rude, and I don't like him. I think you are more in love with the idea of being in a relationship than with this actual person. I think you are making a huge mistake and I don't feel like it would be right to say I support it, because I don't."

Third Way: "I love you and think you are an amazing person who deserves joy and happiness. I don't care how you get there and obviously who you choose to love is your decision. But when you tell me about some of your conflicts with this guy, it makes me mad. Not at you, but at this guy for not treating you better, and also at any situation that makes you think like this is the most you can hope for. I think you deserve more than this. You are worthy of more than this."

I always want the third friend. I only want the third friend. I get why people wind up being one of the first two, but I don't think they serve the friendship at all. False platitudes lead to shallow friendships with limited bonds and those always fade away. People can tell when you are just blowing smoke up their a$$. But tough love makes people defensive, and only worsens the problem you think you are helping them solve. Their problems are theirs to solve. But as a friend, you can always remind them that they deserve a good outcome. Sometimes when you are struggling, that is really hard to remember. And when your friend is mad at you for complaining, it only makes it worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would not want a “tough love” friend.

I sometimes need to vent, cry or just be heard.
And I would crave unconditional support in return.

That is the true definition of friendship.
A friend is someone who knows ALL about you.
Your strengths, your weaknesses + your quirks.
But they support you no matter what.
And they do not judge. 👯‍♀️

A true friend tells you the truth and doesn't just cosign everything you do. Telling you the truth doesn't mean they are judging you or that they don't support you. In fact supporting someone doesn't mean telling them everything they do is great when it's aeful

I consider myself an honest person and would expect the same from a close friend. The truth hurts sometimes as it should, but I would hope if someone was in my corner and genuinely concerned that they wouldn’t just tell me what I want to hear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many women these days only want to hear what they want to hear. The truth is too hard to hear.

So true. Just look at all the threads in this forum. Flames and smoke everywhere, but the majority of women want to dive right into the flames, which is fine but these type of women are never satisfied with keeping their bad choices and the consequences of their bad choices to themselves.s Oh no they want to beg for advice for hours , and then get pissy when it's not what they want to hear ( he's totally awesome and loves you) and then when it goes to shit want to be mad at everybody but thmselves. Middle school shit. I swear most women do not mature past middle school.

100%. I'm the PP with the friend who married the wrong guy and it all blew up in short order. She wanted the fun party guy because only "boring" guys had 9-5 jobs and wore suits to work. So she married the man child who wanted to become a pro athlete, never was able to, had no college education, and no career prospects and she was soon upset and disappointed that he had no money and she paid all the bills. There were so many warning signs but she ignored them all because she was ready to be married and wanted the big wedding. What are you supposed to say in situations like that? "You go girl?" Or, "maybe you should think this through". I would think a better friend would ask some hard questions than just be blindly supportive if you really were looking out for them.

Again, this woman was never your "friend". You were not giving her tough love. You were simply telling her, out loud, that you did not like or respect her. You obviously think she's an idiot and never liked her. I am sorry you got into an argument with this woman you don't like about her life choices, but you two weren't friends so I don't know why you cared anyway.

Sorry, but you're wrong. We were friends for years after this event. The friendship fizzled for other reasons a few years later. There was no "argument" there were some discussion and I was maid of honor. Stop projecting.

No one is projecting. You’re a contemptuous person.

And you have shallow superficial friendships. Grow up.

You’re not intellectually able to have any form of friendship, or discussion. No one was projecting. You then turn to name-calling. No one would miss you out of their life - that’s cause for celebration. And you can cram your wannabe retort. OP and subsequent posters have described your personality well, and it angers you. Oh well!

Well you called me contemptuous, so..... You are super weird. No wonder you have to think real hard about "tough love" friendships because this seems to be a recurring theme with you. Therapy perhaps? Might help with the misplaced anger too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The options are not either tough love or false platitudes. I understand why people think this but I just want to let you know there are other options. I think often the problem is that we always think people are looking for advice or directives. We think our job as a friend is to weigh in, to either agree or disagree, to confirm that a course of action is a good idea or try to dissuade our friend if we think it's a bad idea.

I don't think that's our job as friend. We're not career coaches. We are not mentors. We are no one's boss or mother or older sister. We aren't guides. We are friends.

So what's the other option? Well let's take an example from the thread. Say you have a friend who is in a relationship that isn't abusive but is also not serving her at all. Their personalities don't seem to match up, and worse, you feel like your friend is changing who she is to accommodate this guy who doesn't even seem to treat her or appreciate her. So what do you do? If you genuinely love your friend, how do you help?

False Platitude approach: "He seems great! I'm so happy for you! He might not be the right go for me but I'm sure you guys will be really happy together. All relationships require compromise. I am totally supportive of you in marrying this guy!"

Tough Love approach: "I'll be honest, I don't get what you see in him. He's lazy, he's rude, and I don't like him. I think you are more in love with the idea of being in a relationship than with this actual person. I think you are making a huge mistake and I don't feel like it would be right to say I support it, because I don't."

Third Way: "I love you and think you are an amazing person who deserves joy and happiness. I don't care how you get there and obviously who you choose to love is your decision. But when you tell me about some of your conflicts with this guy, it makes me mad. Not at you, but at this guy for not treating you better, and also at any situation that makes you think like this is the most you can hope for. I think you deserve more than this. You are worthy of more than this."

I always want the third friend. I only want the third friend. I get why people wind up being one of the first two, but I don't think they serve the friendship at all. False platitudes lead to shallow friendships with limited bonds and those always fade away. People can tell when you are just blowing smoke up their a$$. But tough love makes people defensive, and only worsens the problem you think you are helping them solve. Their problems are theirs to solve. But as a friend, you can always remind them that they deserve a good outcome. Sometimes when you are struggling, that is really hard to remember. And when your friend is mad at you for complaining, it only makes it worse.

I'm the PP above who waxed on about people being complex and agree with this poster as well. I think sometimes people become platitude friend and tough love friend due to dynamics in the relationship, and some people are just naturally pliant or abrasive. The third friend is the best friend, and I think there are people who bring out the best in each other that make being the third friend (and being able to receive the third friend) easier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many women these days only want to hear what they want to hear. The truth is too hard to hear.

So true. Just look at all the threads in this forum. Flames and smoke everywhere, but the majority of women want to dive right into the flames, which is fine but these type of women are never satisfied with keeping their bad choices and the consequences of their bad choices to themselves.s Oh no they want to beg for advice for hours , and then get pissy when it's not what they want to hear ( he's totally awesome and loves you) and then when it goes to shit want to be mad at everybody but thmselves. Middle school shit. I swear most women do not mature past middle school.

100%. I'm the PP with the friend who married the wrong guy and it all blew up in short order. She wanted the fun party guy because only "boring" guys had 9-5 jobs and wore suits to work. So she married the man child who wanted to become a pro athlete, never was able to, had no college education, and no career prospects and she was soon upset and disappointed that he had no money and she paid all the bills. There were so many warning signs but she ignored them all because she was ready to be married and wanted the big wedding. What are you supposed to say in situations like that? "You go girl?" Or, "maybe you should think this through". I would think a better friend would ask some hard questions than just be blindly supportive if you really were looking out for them.

Again, this woman was never your "friend". You were not giving her tough love. You were simply telling her, out loud, that you did not like or respect her. You obviously think she's an idiot and never liked her. I am sorry you got into an argument with this woman you don't like about her life choices, but you two weren't friends so I don't know why you cared anyway.

Sorry, but you're wrong. We were friends for years after this event. The friendship fizzled for other reasons a few years later. There was no "argument" there were some discussion and I was maid of honor. Stop projecting.

No one is projecting. You’re a contemptuous person.

And you have shallow superficial friendships. Grow up.

You’re not intellectually able to have any form of friendship, or discussion. No one was projecting. You then turn to name-calling. No one would miss you out of their life - that’s cause for celebration. And you can cram your wannabe retort. OP and subsequent posters have described your personality well, and it angers you. Oh well!

Well you called me contemptuous, so..... You are super weird. No wonder you have to think real hard about "tough love" friendships because this seems to be a recurring theme with you. Therapy perhaps? Might help with the misplaced anger too.

Uh huh. Don’t quit your day job, darling. You’re really defensive, you have a lot for your counselor to untangle.