A theory about "tough love" friends

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Only give advice if asked directly. My question to you is how do you perceive yourself as a friend? Maybe others find you lacking because you don't tell them the truth. Either way, the friends you lost gained so much more in losing you.

Pardon?

Which part confused you? I forgot to write I only give advice when asked directly. Other than that seems pretty clear.

The whole thing confuses me. I do not understand any of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had a friend who married a guy against all advice. I didn't come right out and say "don't marry him" but asked a lot of questions to see if she really thought he was "the one". They were clearly a bad match. Then the marriage was doomed from the start when they had a miserable honeymoon and dragged on for about a year and a half before ending in divorce. It's hard to listen to someone moan and complain about a situation entirely of her own making that was completely avoidable. It's too taxing to be with friends with someone like that, so, we're not friends anymore.

This is the OP and this is a great example of why I don't think tough love friends make sense.

You obviously don't like this woman, do not respect her, and do not think she is capable of making her own decisions. The correct choice is to say to yourself "Wow, I do not like this person, I choose not to be friends with her." Not to pursue a friendship with her that largely involves you doling out "tough love." She wouldn't want to hear it and you would just get mad when she didn't do precisely what you wanted.

Now I can envision a friend for this woman who doesn't sit around judging her relationship and referring to her as moaning and complaining. I can imagine a friend who might not think this is the right guy for her, might even express this out loud, once, but who also respects her friend to make her own choices and is supportive when her friend seems excited about her marriage. After all, this friend might acknowledge to herself that you can't know everything that goes on in someone else's relationship and that this is her friend's decision to make.

This friend might take some time to understand why the woman is drawn to this guy who doesn't seem right for her (what's her past like? what's her upbringing like? does she have self-esteem problems? etc.) and, in trying to understand, have some empathy for the friend. This friend might also have some humility and not that she, too, is imperfect and that mistakes are a part of life and that no one gets everything right all the time. This friend could be there for this woman when she went through her divorce and could turn around and be a good friend in return because she felt loved and supported and respected.

No one needs tough love friends.

Nobody needs emotional vampires either. She wasn't a very smart person and it got tiring watching someone make a mess of her own life. If you want to do stupid things, then do it and don't complain. It's taking advantage of someone else to expect them to be your emotional support for your obvious mistakes. You made your bed, lie in it.

I am so sorry you lost this dear friend. I can see you are broken up about it.

Why are you mad about HER choices? Really, you need to look inward to figure out why someone else's decisions about their own life make you so angry. It's weird.

I'm not mad, I just think she's an idiot and don't have time for it anymore. If you are the recipient of a lot of tough love maybe you should take some personal inventory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had a friend who married a guy against all advice. I didn't come right out and say "don't marry him" but asked a lot of questions to see if she really thought he was "the one". They were clearly a bad match. Then the marriage was doomed from the start when they had a miserable honeymoon and dragged on for about a year and a half before ending in divorce. It's hard to listen to someone moan and complain about a situation entirely of her own making that was completely avoidable. It's too taxing to be with friends with someone like that, so, we're not friends anymore.

This is the OP and this is a great example of why I don't think tough love friends make sense.

You obviously don't like this woman, do not respect her, and do not think she is capable of making her own decisions. The correct choice is to say to yourself "Wow, I do not like this person, I choose not to be friends with her." Not to pursue a friendship with her that largely involves you doling out "tough love." She wouldn't want to hear it and you would just get mad when she didn't do precisely what you wanted.

Now I can envision a friend for this woman who doesn't sit around judging her relationship and referring to her as moaning and complaining. I can imagine a friend who might not think this is the right guy for her, might even express this out loud, once, but who also respects her friend to make her own choices and is supportive when her friend seems excited about her marriage. After all, this friend might acknowledge to herself that you can't know everything that goes on in someone else's relationship and that this is her friend's decision to make.

This friend might take some time to understand why the woman is drawn to this guy who doesn't seem right for her (what's her past like? what's her upbringing like? does she have self-esteem problems? etc.) and, in trying to understand, have some empathy for the friend. This friend might also have some humility and not that she, too, is imperfect and that mistakes are a part of life and that no one gets everything right all the time. This friend could be there for this woman when she went through her divorce and could turn around and be a good friend in return because she felt loved and supported and respected.

No one needs tough love friends.

Nobody needs emotional vampires either. She wasn't a very smart person and it got tiring watching someone make a mess of her own life. If you want to do stupid things, then do it and don't complain. It's taking advantage of someone else to expect them to be your emotional support for your obvious mistakes. You made your bed, lie in it.

I am so sorry you lost this dear friend. I can see you are broken up about it.

Why are you mad about HER choices? Really, you need to look inward to figure out why someone else's decisions about their own life make you so angry. It's weird.

+ 1.

[Anonymous]

I haven’t had issues with “tough love” about more serious issues but I will say friends who will give honest advice about haircuts and clothes are great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had a friend who married a guy against all advice. I didn't come right out and say "don't marry him" but asked a lot of questions to see if she really thought he was "the one". They were clearly a bad match. Then the marriage was doomed from the start when they had a miserable honeymoon and dragged on for about a year and a half before ending in divorce. It's hard to listen to someone moan and complain about a situation entirely of her own making that was completely avoidable. It's too taxing to be with friends with someone like that, so, we're not friends anymore.

This is the OP and this is a great example of why I don't think tough love friends make sense.

You obviously don't like this woman, do not respect her, and do not think she is capable of making her own decisions. The correct choice is to say to yourself "Wow, I do not like this person, I choose not to be friends with her." Not to pursue a friendship with her that largely involves you doling out "tough love." She wouldn't want to hear it and you would just get mad when she didn't do precisely what you wanted.

Now I can envision a friend for this woman who doesn't sit around judging her relationship and referring to her as moaning and complaining. I can imagine a friend who might not think this is the right guy for her, might even express this out loud, once, but who also respects her friend to make her own choices and is supportive when her friend seems excited about her marriage. After all, this friend might acknowledge to herself that you can't know everything that goes on in someone else's relationship and that this is her friend's decision to make.

This friend might take some time to understand why the woman is drawn to this guy who doesn't seem right for her (what's her past like? what's her upbringing like? does she have self-esteem problems? etc.) and, in trying to understand, have some empathy for the friend. This friend might also have some humility and not that she, too, is imperfect and that mistakes are a part of life and that no one gets everything right all the time. This friend could be there for this woman when she went through her divorce and could turn around and be a good friend in return because she felt loved and supported and respected.

No one needs tough love friends.

Nobody needs emotional vampires either. She wasn't a very smart person and it got tiring watching someone make a mess of her own life. If you want to do stupid things, then do it and don't complain. It's taking advantage of someone else to expect them to be your emotional support for your obvious mistakes. You made your bed, lie in it.

I am so sorry you lost this dear friend. I can see you are broken up about it.

Why are you mad about HER choices? Really, you need to look inward to figure out why someone else's decisions about their own life make you so angry. It's weird.

+ 1.

I clarified in another post, this "friend" was a taker, not a giver. So we aren't friends anymore. When you support people it's reasonable to expect support in return and can be disappointing when you don't. I went to my friends wedding, wished her the best and hoped it would work out, despite concerns, that I framed as questions. Never did I tell her she was wrong or it was a mistake, I kept that to myself. I did my part. Everyone is projecting in here and one person's situation won't be the same as another's. If the friendship isn't a two way street and mutually beneficial then there is no point. Life is too short to have friends who are a drain, either way.

[Anonymous]

I have thought about this a lot lately. I see in movies and TV all the time women friends who are so blunt and honest with each other, offering unsolicity advice all the time, etc.

In real life, it seems like nobody actually wants or likes this. It seems like in real life the best thing to do is always just listen and only give advice if the person asks, and even then, be really cautious and gentle.

I think for me one reason I don't like being on the receiving end of this "blunt" approach is that I don't really trust anyone and don't feel like they know the real me. I feel like I'd be okay getting it from a therapist. I'm definitely okay getting it from my husband. But from friends I'm like, who do you think you are? And I've gotten the same response when I've been the "tough love" person in the conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t had issues with “tough love” about more serious issues but I will say friends who will give honest advice about haircuts and clothes are great.

But only if they have great taste and know what they are talking about, which is extremely subjective. I knew a woman once who was constantly telling her friends (including me, and I really considered her more of an acquaintance) what she thought looked good on us and what we "could" and "couldn't" pull off.

Setting aside that it's just annoying to have someone weighing in on your appearance all the time, the woman had terrible taste! She had no idea how to dress herself, much less anyone else. She'd issue these dictates ("Maxi dresses are ugly" or "no one looks good in yellow") and then she'd regularly wear ill-fitting, unflattering clothes and cut her hair in the most unflattering ways.

And I never would have said anything negative about those choices, especially because you know what? She had a hard-to-fit body and very thick curly hair and I know from experience that it can be hard to find things to flatter when it feels like many if not most trends are designed for people who just don't look like you. But she really undermined that ill will by just being rude about how other people looked. It was pretty transparently an outgrowth of her own insecurity, but that didn't make it any less rude. And she couched all of it as "oh girl, I'm just trying to save you from making a mistake!" It was all I could do not to bite back about her own appearance but I don't want to engage in that kind of mean girl BS. But whew did she invite it.

So be careful what you wish for. Some friend are good sounding boards for appearance-related issues, but some very much aren't.

[Anonymous]

^undermined that good will, not ill will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have thought about this a lot lately. I see in movies and TV all the time women friends who are so blunt and honest with each other, offering unsolicity advice all the time, etc.

In real life, it seems like nobody actually wants or likes this. It seems like in real life the best thing to do is always just listen and only give advice if the person asks, and even then, be really cautious and gentle.

I think for me one reason I don't like being on the receiving end of this "blunt" approach is that I don't really trust anyone and don't feel like they know the real me. I feel like I'd be okay getting it from a therapist. I'm definitely okay getting it from my husband. But from friends I'm like, who do you think you are? And I've gotten the same response when I've been the "tough love" person in the conversation.

I mean, the reason you see that a lot in TV and movies is that the "best friend" is often a plot device designed to move the action forward or create tension. Or these dynamics are played for laughs, and one of the reasons you laugh is because on some level it's shocking for someone's friend to tell them their wedding dress is ugly or that they're never gonna make it in the ballet world so it's time to call it quits. But in real life, of course that would not be funny. Because that's someone actual wedding dress, their actual professional dream. You can't just trash it for laughs and expect people to roll with it.

Also, movies and TV shoes are often about dramatic moments in someone's life. The pivotal moment of a friendship or relationship, a life or death situation, etc. In reality, that probably is a very good time to get real and tell people what you really think. Most of us don't exist in those moments all the time. I might appreciate a "come to Jesus" moment from my best friend if we're in a hospital waiting room about to get bad news from a doctor, if it's useful. I'm not gonna be as excited to hear it from that person twice a week over drinks when I'm just trying to wrap up my graduate program and figure out if this is a good or terrible time to have kids. In the latter setting, I do just want support and kindness and the occasional sounding board. Not tough love. I get enough "tough love" from life.

[Anonymous]

If this has been such a problem in your life, I think you might be a big complainer. “Tough love” people are usually responding to being invited into your problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If this has been such a problem in your life, I think you might be a big complainer. “Tough love” people are usually responding to being invited into your problems.

What you are describing is a co-dependency. Tough love people often seek out "big complainers" because that gives them the opportunity to frequently dole out all their advice and feel superior. And big complainers, in turn, often become fixated on proving to the tough love people that their problems are valid (or that they are valid) and with every rejection, just become more determined to prove it the next time. Both parties will be miserable but they will also both keep coming back for more because the relationship feeds their insecurities.

If someone "invites you into their problems" you can always decline the invitation. And if you find yourself giving tough love advice a lot, it would probably be a good idea to step back and ask (1) if that is actually helping your friend, and (2) if it is serving you. The answer to both is probably no. A lot of people in the world are seeking love and validation, and you might think it's dumb that they want those things, or you might think they are going about it in the wrong way, but neither of those things are really your business.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had a friend who married a guy against all advice. I didn't come right out and say "don't marry him" but asked a lot of questions to see if she really thought he was "the one". They were clearly a bad match. Then the marriage was doomed from the start when they had a miserable honeymoon and dragged on for about a year and a half before ending in divorce. It's hard to listen to someone moan and complain about a situation entirely of her own making that was completely avoidable. It's too taxing to be with friends with someone like that, so, we're not friends anymore.

This is the OP and this is a great example of why I don't think tough love friends make sense.

You obviously don't like this woman, do not respect her, and do not think she is capable of making her own decisions. The correct choice is to say to yourself "Wow, I do not like this person, I choose not to be friends with her." Not to pursue a friendship with her that largely involves you doling out "tough love." She wouldn't want to hear it and you would just get mad when she didn't do precisely what you wanted.

Now I can envision a friend for this woman who doesn't sit around judging her relationship and referring to her as moaning and complaining. I can imagine a friend who might not think this is the right guy for her, might even express this out loud, once, but who also respects her friend to make her own choices and is supportive when her friend seems excited about her marriage. After all, this friend might acknowledge to herself that you can't know everything that goes on in someone else's relationship and that this is her friend's decision to make.

This friend might take some time to understand why the woman is drawn to this guy who doesn't seem right for her (what's her past like? what's her upbringing like? does she have self-esteem problems? etc.) and, in trying to understand, have some empathy for the friend. This friend might also have some humility and not that she, too, is imperfect and that mistakes are a part of life and that no one gets everything right all the time. This friend could be there for this woman when she went through her divorce and could turn around and be a good friend in return because she felt loved and supported and respected.

No one needs tough love friends.

OP, you've now lost me here. The PP's friend's marriage ended in divorce. Clearly the friend made a bad choice and the PP tried to be nicer with her tough love on the front end, and then on the back end, when the friend just whined and complained about a situation that it sounds like folks tried to warn her about, the PP tired of it. There is a difference between respecting someone's choices and wasting your own time listening to them bemoan their poor choices. I wonder if OP just makes a lot of silly choices so she often finds herself on the receiving end of tough love conversations?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had a friend who married a guy against all advice. I didn't come right out and say "don't marry him" but asked a lot of questions to see if she really thought he was "the one". They were clearly a bad match. Then the marriage was doomed from the start when they had a miserable honeymoon and dragged on for about a year and a half before ending in divorce. It's hard to listen to someone moan and complain about a situation entirely of her own making that was completely avoidable. It's too taxing to be with friends with someone like that, so, we're not friends anymore.

This is the OP and this is a great example of why I don't think tough love friends make sense.

You obviously don't like this woman, do not respect her, and do not think she is capable of making her own decisions. The correct choice is to say to yourself "Wow, I do not like this person, I choose not to be friends with her." Not to pursue a friendship with her that largely involves you doling out "tough love." She wouldn't want to hear it and you would just get mad when she didn't do precisely what you wanted.

Now I can envision a friend for this woman who doesn't sit around judging her relationship and referring to her as moaning and complaining. I can imagine a friend who might not think this is the right guy for her, might even express this out loud, once, but who also respects her friend to make her own choices and is supportive when her friend seems excited about her marriage. After all, this friend might acknowledge to herself that you can't know everything that goes on in someone else's relationship and that this is her friend's decision to make.

This friend might take some time to understand why the woman is drawn to this guy who doesn't seem right for her (what's her past like? what's her upbringing like? does she have self-esteem problems? etc.) and, in trying to understand, have some empathy for the friend. This friend might also have some humility and not that she, too, is imperfect and that mistakes are a part of life and that no one gets everything right all the time. This friend could be there for this woman when she went through her divorce and could turn around and be a good friend in return because she felt loved and supported and respected.

No one needs tough love friends.

OP, you've now lost me here. The PP's friend's marriage ended in divorce. Clearly the friend made a bad choice and the PP tried to be nicer with her tough love on the front end, and then on the back end, when the friend just whined and complained about a situation that it sounds like folks tried to warn her about, the PP tired of it. There is a difference between respecting someone's choices and wasting your own time listening to them bemoan their poor choices. I wonder if OP just makes a lot of silly choices so she often finds herself on the receiving end of tough love conversations?

OP here. I actually have a lovely life with a wonderful partner and child and a career that is structure exactly the way I want, thank you.

But to get here, I had to make tough choices. Mostly good, though some stinkers. My point is that everyone lives with their own choices. You say it's a waste of time to listen to your friend "bemoan their poor choices." Why? I have never viewed giving a struggling friend a listening ear a waste of time. Sometimes people are struggling a lot, or struggling with something I just can't find a way to understand, and that's a sign to me that I should step back. No one is forcing me into a chair to listen to them complain. But if a friend who is struggling with her relationship or just got a divorce asks if I want to get drinks or a meal, I go in knowing full well that probably some part of that conversation will involve her talking about, even complaining about, what's going on in her life. If I'm not up for that, I can always decline the invite. Or if it becomes one sided, as people have mentioned, where I don't get to talk about my own life, I can just say "Hey, it feels like we talk about your life a lot and I never really get a chance to discuss what's going on with me, and that doesn't feel great." And then we can talk about it.

But at no point to I tell my friend "You need to stop making stupid choices and I'm tired of listening to you complain about them." Because that would be incredibly insensitive. And as I've said, I know what it is to make a mistake and I've appreciated the love and support of friends through those times. I do not view my opinion of my friend's choices, or what I imagine I would do in the same situation (which may or may not be what I'd actually do -- we all overestimate how well we'd live someone else's life) as some final judgment on her life that I need to issue. That's not my job. Love and support. That's friendship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had a friend who married a guy against all advice. I didn't come right out and say "don't marry him" but asked a lot of questions to see if she really thought he was "the one". They were clearly a bad match. Then the marriage was doomed from the start when they had a miserable honeymoon and dragged on for about a year and a half before ending in divorce. It's hard to listen to someone moan and complain about a situation entirely of her own making that was completely avoidable. It's too taxing to be with friends with someone like that, so, we're not friends anymore.

This is the OP and this is a great example of why I don't think tough love friends make sense.

You obviously don't like this woman, do not respect her, and do not think she is capable of making her own decisions. The correct choice is to say to yourself "Wow, I do not like this person, I choose not to be friends with her." Not to pursue a friendship with her that largely involves you doling out "tough love." She wouldn't want to hear it and you would just get mad when she didn't do precisely what you wanted.

Now I can envision a friend for this woman who doesn't sit around judging her relationship and referring to her as moaning and complaining. I can imagine a friend who might not think this is the right guy for her, might even express this out loud, once, but who also respects her friend to make her own choices and is supportive when her friend seems excited about her marriage. After all, this friend might acknowledge to herself that you can't know everything that goes on in someone else's relationship and that this is her friend's decision to make.

This friend might take some time to understand why the woman is drawn to this guy who doesn't seem right for her (what's her past like? what's her upbringing like? does she have self-esteem problems? etc.) and, in trying to understand, have some empathy for the friend. This friend might also have some humility and not that she, too, is imperfect and that mistakes are a part of life and that no one gets everything right all the time. This friend could be there for this woman when she went through her divorce and could turn around and be a good friend in return because she felt loved and supported and respected.

No one needs tough love friends.

OP, you've now lost me here. The PP's friend's marriage ended in divorce. Clearly the friend made a bad choice and the PP tried to be nicer with her tough love on the front end, and then on the back end, when the friend just whined and complained about a situation that it sounds like folks tried to warn her about, the PP tired of it. There is a difference between respecting someone's choices and wasting your own time listening to them bemoan their poor choices. I wonder if OP just makes a lot of silly choices so she often finds herself on the receiving end of tough love conversations?

OP here. I actually have a lovely life with a wonderful partner and child and a career that is structure exactly the way I want, thank you.

But to get here, I had to make tough choices. Mostly good, though some stinkers. My point is that everyone lives with their own choices. You say it's a waste of time to listen to your friend "bemoan their poor choices." Why? I have never viewed giving a struggling friend a listening ear a waste of time. Sometimes people are struggling a lot, or struggling with something I just can't find a way to understand, and that's a sign to me that I should step back. No one is forcing me into a chair to listen to them complain. But if a friend who is struggling with her relationship or just got a divorce asks if I want to get drinks or a meal, I go in knowing full well that probably some part of that conversation will involve her talking about, even complaining about, what's going on in her life. If I'm not up for that, I can always decline the invite. Or if it becomes one sided, as people have mentioned, where I don't get to talk about my own life, I can just say "Hey, it feels like we talk about your life a lot and I never really get a chance to discuss what's going on with me, and that doesn't feel great." And then we can talk about it.

But at no point to I tell my friend "You need to stop making stupid choices and I'm tired of listening to you complain about them." Because that would be incredibly insensitive. And as I've said, I know what it is to make a mistake and I've appreciated the love and support of friends through those times. I do not view my opinion of my friend's choices, or what I imagine I would do in the same situation (which may or may not be what I'd actually do -- we all overestimate how well we'd live someone else's life) as some final judgment on her life that I need to issue. That's not my job. Love and support. That's friendship.

In summary, you just want to be told whatever you do is awesome. HArdly groundbreaking or worthy of a thread.

[Anonymous]

If you don't want tough love. Keep all the drama about your cheating, lazy, abusive, smelly, overweight, porn addicted, gambling-addicted, bad at sex, bf/DH , and whatever else you complain about to yourself. Easy Peasy.