DH pushes me away from DC

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I get it OP. It’s one of those behaviors that are so abnormal, just downright absurd, it seems like you must be imagining it. Add in the plausible deniability, and it’s usually not worth confronting someone about it. Then it keeps happening, and it becomes your normal, and when you try to get help people don’t believe you because again, it’s absurd.

My spouse isn’t like that exactly, but my mom is. It’s like she couldn’t maintain a relationship with one person for an extended period of time, so she would have to create drama and take breaks, and she also wasn’t capable of having good relationships with multiple people (especially women) at the same time, so she’d create drama to split groups up and switch who she was BFFs with every few months.

It was hard for me and my sister growing up with her, because she modeled bad relationships and we learned a lot of bad habits. We weren’t total mean girls, but close enough. My mom also tried to put my sister and me against each other, because if we we’re in a disagreement, we’d both try to get mom to side with us, and it would turn into a competition for her favor. The added bonus for her was that she got to play the martyr role because her children were so challenging, despite her being the best mother ever, so more drama with her at the center.

When I had kids, she started doing some things that sound sort of like your husband. She might suggest I get them some difficult to obtain gift and I’d do all the leg work while she got all the credit. Or I’d invite her to some outing and I all the planning, and she’d take all the credit. She couldn’t handle that Santa and the Easter bunny got attention, so she’d always have Santa and EB gifts at her house too and say they made a special visit, then she’d say it was all her because she couldn’t handle giving credit to anyone else. Her shenanigans led to my oldest figuring out the truth about Santa. She also had to give the biggest, best present. And she had to go first. I think she gave my kids iPads for Christmas when they were 4&6, after we asked her not to. We started opening presents and about 2 gifts in, she said she couldn’t wait anymore and they needed to open those next. After they opened those, nothing else held their interest.

If I ever called her out on something, she’d gaslight and say she never intended to make it seem she was the only one deserving of credit and then spend the rest of the event sarcastically drawing attention to everything I’d do (for example, thank your mom for tying your shoe, she worked really hard to make sure your shoes are tied). And if I’d tell her not to do something because it was over the top, she’d either do it anyway, or tell the kids I wouldn’t let her do whatever it was (for example, I said she could not buy them a puppy, so when they’d play with her dog and say they wished they had a dog too, she’d say “I was going to get you one but your mom won’t allow it. She told me I couldn’t come visit you anymore if I bought you a dog.” Then they started being afraid that grandma wouldn’t be allowed to visit anymore. So manipulative.)

Eventually the kids saw through it. No real advice, but I feel you. It’s hard to explain it to someone who hasn’t lived it, because any one incident isn’t so bad. It’s the pattern. I never figured out a way to handle it that was effective other than going no contact. Otherwise I’d set a boundary, she’d abide by it until I got comfortable and felt safe, then she’d be overcome by temptation and cross the boundary every time.

Wow, PP, that sounds so challenging. Are you currently no-contact with her?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get it OP. It’s one of those behaviors that are so abnormal, just downright absurd, it seems like you must be imagining it. Add in the plausible deniability, and it’s usually not worth confronting someone about it. Then it keeps happening, and it becomes your normal, and when you try to get help people don’t believe you because again, it’s absurd.

My spouse isn’t like that exactly, but my mom is. It’s like she couldn’t maintain a relationship with one person for an extended period of time, so she would have to create drama and take breaks, and she also wasn’t capable of having good relationships with multiple people (especially women) at the same time, so she’d create drama to split groups up and switch who she was BFFs with every few months.

It was hard for me and my sister growing up with her, because she modeled bad relationships and we learned a lot of bad habits. We weren’t total mean girls, but close enough. My mom also tried to put my sister and me against each other, because if we we’re in a disagreement, we’d both try to get mom to side with us, and it would turn into a competition for her favor. The added bonus for her was that she got to play the martyr role because her children were so challenging, despite her being the best mother ever, so more drama with her at the center.

When I had kids, she started doing some things that sound sort of like your husband. She might suggest I get them some difficult to obtain gift and I’d do all the leg work while she got all the credit. Or I’d invite her to some outing and I all the planning, and she’d take all the credit. She couldn’t handle that Santa and the Easter bunny got attention, so she’d always have Santa and EB gifts at her house too and say they made a special visit, then she’d say it was all her because she couldn’t handle giving credit to anyone else. Her shenanigans led to my oldest figuring out the truth about Santa. She also had to give the biggest, best present. And she had to go first. I think she gave my kids iPads for Christmas when they were 4&6, after we asked her not to. We started opening presents and about 2 gifts in, she said she couldn’t wait anymore and they needed to open those next. After they opened those, nothing else held their interest.

If I ever called her out on something, she’d gaslight and say she never intended to make it seem she was the only one deserving of credit and then spend the rest of the event sarcastically drawing attention to everything I’d do (for example, thank your mom for tying your shoe, she worked really hard to make sure your shoes are tied). And if I’d tell her not to do something because it was over the top, she’d either do it anyway, or tell the kids I wouldn’t let her do whatever it was (for example, I said she could not buy them a puppy, so when they’d play with her dog and say they wished they had a dog too, she’d say “I was going to get you one but your mom won’t allow it. She told me I couldn’t come visit you anymore if I bought you a dog.” Then they started being afraid that grandma wouldn’t be allowed to visit anymore. So manipulative.)

Eventually the kids saw through it. No real advice, but I feel you. It’s hard to explain it to someone who hasn’t lived it, because any one incident isn’t so bad. It’s the pattern. I never figured out a way to handle it that was effective other than going no contact. Otherwise I’d set a boundary, she’d abide by it until I got comfortable and felt safe, then she’d be overcome by temptation and cross the boundary every time.

Wow, PP, that sounds so challenging. Are you currently no-contact with her?

Yes. There’s no going back for me. I’ll never trust my parents. At the end I felt like I was constantly waiting for them to pull some crazy stunt. When we cut off contact, I felt such relief. I’ve mourned the loss of my relationship with my parents. I don’t wish them ill. I feel nothing at all for them beyond a little bit of pity, because their parents were even worse, and there’s clearly mental illness at play. It’s not their fault they had those circumstances, but it’s their fault they chose to try to drag my sister and me down to their level instead of boosting us up.

I felt for OP because so many people who know my parents think I’m making up stories when I tell the crazy stuff they did. Or they think I’m overreacting. The same way people responded to her here.

[Anonymous]

OP- I completely understand where you are coming from. I had a boy friend like this in college too. It is so hard because no one else will see it, but you will feel it.

Look up Covert Narcissist and see if it rings true. Here is an article that may resonate with you: https://www.verywellmind.com/understanding-the-covert-narcissist-4584587

The guy I knew would steal my jokes. Like I would say something and he would announce it to the group and present it like his own. (Among other crap)

So subtle, but is covert narcissist behavior.

I'm sorry you have to deal with it, but know you are not alone and it is toxic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get it OP. It’s one of those behaviors that are so abnormal, just downright absurd, it seems like you must be imagining it. Add in the plausible deniability, and it’s usually not worth confronting someone about it. Then it keeps happening, and it becomes your normal, and when you try to get help people don’t believe you because again, it’s absurd.

My spouse isn’t like that exactly, but my mom is. It’s like she couldn’t maintain a relationship with one person for an extended period of time, so she would have to create drama and take breaks, and she also wasn’t capable of having good relationships with multiple people (especially women) at the same time, so she’d create drama to split groups up and switch who she was BFFs with every few months.

It was hard for me and my sister growing up with her, because she modeled bad relationships and we learned a lot of bad habits. We weren’t total mean girls, but close enough. My mom also tried to put my sister and me against each other, because if we we’re in a disagreement, we’d both try to get mom to side with us, and it would turn into a competition for her favor. The added bonus for her was that she got to play the martyr role because her children were so challenging, despite her being the best mother ever, so more drama with her at the center.

When I had kids, she started doing some things that sound sort of like your husband. She might suggest I get them some difficult to obtain gift and I’d do all the leg work while she got all the credit. Or I’d invite her to some outing and I all the planning, and she’d take all the credit. She couldn’t handle that Santa and the Easter bunny got attention, so she’d always have Santa and EB gifts at her house too and say they made a special visit, then she’d say it was all her because she couldn’t handle giving credit to anyone else. Her shenanigans led to my oldest figuring out the truth about Santa. She also had to give the biggest, best present. And she had to go first. I think she gave my kids iPads for Christmas when they were 4&6, after we asked her not to. We started opening presents and about 2 gifts in, she said she couldn’t wait anymore and they needed to open those next. After they opened those, nothing else held their interest.

If I ever called her out on something, she’d gaslight and say she never intended to make it seem she was the only one deserving of credit and then spend the rest of the event sarcastically drawing attention to everything I’d do (for example, thank your mom for tying your shoe, she worked really hard to make sure your shoes are tied). And if I’d tell her not to do something because it was over the top, she’d either do it anyway, or tell the kids I wouldn’t let her do whatever it was (for example, I said she could not buy them a puppy, so when they’d play with her dog and say they wished they had a dog too, she’d say “I was going to get you one but your mom won’t allow it. She told me I couldn’t come visit you anymore if I bought you a dog.” Then they started being afraid that grandma wouldn’t be allowed to visit anymore. So manipulative.)

Eventually the kids saw through it. No real advice, but I feel you. It’s hard to explain it to someone who hasn’t lived it, because any one incident isn’t so bad. It’s the pattern. I never figured out a way to handle it that was effective other than going no contact. Otherwise I’d set a boundary, she’d abide by it until I got comfortable and felt safe, then she’d be overcome by temptation and cross the boundary every time.

Wow, PP, that sounds so challenging. Are you currently no-contact with her?

Yes. There’s no going back for me. I’ll never trust my parents. At the end I felt like I was constantly waiting for them to pull some crazy stunt. When we cut off contact, I felt such relief. I’ve mourned the loss of my relationship with my parents. I don’t wish them ill. I feel nothing at all for them beyond a little bit of pity, because their parents were even worse, and there’s clearly mental illness at play. It’s not their fault they had those circumstances, but it’s their fault they chose to try to drag my sister and me down to their level instead of boosting us up.

I felt for OP because so many people who know my parents think I’m making up stories when I tell the crazy stuff they did. Or they think I’m overreacting. The same way people responded to her here.

OP here. PP, I am so grateful for you taking the time to respond, because you spelled it our beautifully. I read so many threads on DCUM that have unhelpful PPs (some here), who chime in even though they have no experience, and I wonder why they bothered. Then, they ask for examples, so they can predictably pile it on, of course. But your post nails it, thank you.

I am looking up further information that you provided. I feel like I should been become a psychiatrist instead of my chosen field - you have to be one to keep up with the constant (!!!) drama and shenanigans. My God, don't these people get positively exhausted?? MIL is all about the drama, so I don't really bother - always about her, and always negative. I just don't have the bandwidth for her, and frankly, I resent what she did to her family, and how she failed them, and how she keeps doing what she is doing. Again, exhausting! Thank you and keep posting any examples/experiences with this.

[Anonymous]

OP here (to helpful PP or another helpful person): Should I give DH info on covert narcissism so he knows he is "found out"? Also, so he knows (concretely) why I don't bother with MIL?

I have mentioned that she is cold and uncaring before, but I want him to know I am not making this BS (that she pulls, and him too) up.

The funny thing is, DH is extremely empathetic to DD but almost seems jealous of our DS (and me, also!). DH has a ton of insecurities. He treats DS (and me) how he was treated (badly). DH is big on DD "feeling heard" (as he was not), but will give DS and me a hard time and be extremely dismissive (like his mom is of him and all her kids, except one, really). He was really big on discipline for DS, but DD could basically get away with burning the house down, and DH would probably say "oh, she didn't realize (excuses here)". I don't feel like he is doing either of them any favors.

It took me a long time to get the family to come together for family dinners, because DH was treated so badly during family dinners (by his family), for example. Now, he triangulates and sees it as an opportunity for his shenanigans. He picks sides and will make sure DD gets what she wants, but piles it on (in a negative fashion) or DS.

Control issues and negativity feed into what he does.

[Anonymous]

One more thing: dismissing feelings and creating drama are prominent things that MIL and DH do every day. OP here. It gets old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just keep living your beat life for you and your children.

Do the tradition! Do the holidays! Do the vacations! Do the parties! Do the arts, crafts, sports, shows!

You’re normal, do your normal to raise the kids.

Don’t let H and his family tell you that holidays, caring, and planning fun stuff and doing it is “crazy.” They’re they crazy ones, and probably clinically so!

I married into a family like this. They do nothing. Nothing! They sit at home and read the internet. One never worked, the other got fired at age 50 but lived off public stock compensation. They don’t understand why anyone would go out the dinner, go to a beach, play organized sports, buy clothes not make them, or talk at dinner. They’re on the spectrum, that’s their normal: doing nothing.

I stopped giving a damn about what they thought - since it was usually nothing - years ago.

OP here. Yes, this is part of it, DH has a very depressed family who comes off as "stoic" if you don't know them well. UGH.

[Anonymous]

OP again (apologies!) - I think it is key that DH and his family have so few (and most of them, none) friends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Drop the rope. Stop doing any of this. If he wants a special meal, or to celebrate a holiday in a certain way, say "great! I look forward to seeing what you come up with". He cannot make you lift a finger. Once he sees how much work this is, perhaps he'll back off a bit.

Kid will suffer

He will love that everyone sunk to his low denominator: everybody does nothing.

The kids are already suffering because you saddled them with this unsuitable father.

[Anonymous]

Ok, I understand why you don't want to focus on specific examples, because DCUM does usually grab hold of them and miss the bigger picture. But I'm not following your examples at all (the cousins thing was indecipherable).

I'm glad you said you were in therapy because I think you need to think about your contributions to this dynamic. But at the same time, I think you're overly invested in labels and diagnoses.

Let's pick the one example - easter. What does it mean he claims credit? Why is there any credit to claim? What is it you're looking for? What if you "drop the rope" - who cares if he claims credit? Anyone with an eyeball knows what you did and what your contribution is. I think if you want him to acknowledge and thank you, you need to accept you are probably never going to get that. So you do you - do what you want, and take pleasure in the acts you do themselves, not whether you "get credit." I'd explore in therapy why it matter so much to you and why you view it as triangulating.

I'm more concerned about the golden child/less favored child dynamic you describe with your kids. THat's harmful. I wonder how old your kids are? I suppose, to extend easter, you view it as husband claims credit, DD fawns all over daddy for all the things for easter, and you feel excluded from DD? Again, here I'd just drop the rope. If you're a strong, steady, loving presence in your children's lives, they will know this. It is natural for kids to favor one parent over another at various points. Just stay the course. (and quit labeling your kids, yourself).

Why is separating off the table? Just curious. Do you love your DH?

I think, overall, given the image you've described, you're never, ever, going otget exactly what you need/want from your husband. Decide what you will get from him, and whether you can live with it, and if you can live with it, you need ot make peace with it - which means not letting it get to you.

[Anonymous]

Telling your husband that you have discovered him to be a covert narcissist is very unlikely to turn out well for you. I would ask your therapist for some advice here. The most recent PP nailed it, though. You aren't going to fully "fix" him, so you need to focus on what you can change (yourself) and decide if that is worth staying over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok, I understand why you don't want to focus on specific examples, because DCUM does usually grab hold of them and miss the bigger picture. But I'm not following your examples at all (the cousins thing was indecipherable).

I'm glad you said you were in therapy because I think you need to think about your contributions to this dynamic. But at the same time, I think you're overly invested in labels and diagnoses.

Let's pick the one example - easter. What does it mean he claims credit? Why is there any credit to claim? What is it you're looking for? What if you "drop the rope" - who cares if he claims credit? Anyone with an eyeball knows what you did and what your contribution is. I think if you want him to acknowledge and thank you, you need to accept you are probably never going to get that. So you do you - do what you want, and take pleasure in the acts you do themselves, not whether you "get credit." I'd explore in therapy why it matter so much to you and why you view it as triangulating.

I'm more concerned about the golden child/less favored child dynamic you describe with your kids. THat's harmful. I wonder how old your kids are? I suppose, to extend easter, you view it as husband claims credit, DD fawns all over daddy for all the things for easter, and you feel excluded from DD? Again, here I'd just drop the rope. If you're a strong, steady, loving presence in your children's lives, they will know this. It is natural for kids to favor one parent over another at various points. Just stay the course. (and quit labeling your kids, yourself).

Why is separating off the table? Just curious. Do you love your DH?

I think, overall, given the image you've described, you're never, ever, going otget exactly what you need/want from your husband. Decide what you will get from him, and whether you can live with it, and if you can live with it, you need ot make peace with it - which means not letting it get to you.

God, read the thread. A few posters have laid out in detail what is going on.

[Anonymous]

It's a little hard to get a clear understanding from your posts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok, I understand why you don't want to focus on specific examples, because DCUM does usually grab hold of them and miss the bigger picture. But I'm not following your examples at all (the cousins thing was indecipherable).

I'm glad you said you were in therapy because I think you need to think about your contributions to this dynamic. But at the same time, I think you're overly invested in labels and diagnoses.

Let's pick the one example - easter. What does it mean he claims credit? Why is there any credit to claim? What is it you're looking for? What if you "drop the rope" - who cares if he claims credit? Anyone with an eyeball knows what you did and what your contribution is. I think if you want him to acknowledge and thank you, you need to accept you are probably never going to get that. So you do you - do what you want, and take pleasure in the acts you do themselves, not whether you "get credit." I'd explore in therapy why it matter so much to you and why you view it as triangulating.

I'm more concerned about the golden child/less favored child dynamic you describe with your kids. THat's harmful. I wonder how old your kids are? I suppose, to extend easter, you view it as husband claims credit, DD fawns all over daddy for all the things for easter, and you feel excluded from DD? Again, here I'd just drop the rope. If you're a strong, steady, loving presence in your children's lives, they will know this. It is natural for kids to favor one parent over another at various points. Just stay the course. (and quit labeling your kids, yourself).

Why is separating off the table? Just curious. Do you love your DH?

I think, overall, given the image you've described, you're never, ever, going otget exactly what you need/want from your husband. Decide what you will get from him, and whether you can live with it, and if you can live with it, you need ot make peace with it - which means not letting it get to you.

God, read the thread. A few posters have laid out in detail what is going on.

I read the entire thread. A few posters relayed what was happening in THEIR lives - but OP has been vague and confusing about what is going on in HER life. What does claiming credit for Easter mean? (And the cousin thing was never explained). Again, I do agree it is difficult to be married to someone like this, but OP is playing a role in the dynamic too. As can example, I have purchased 90% of the presents/holiday gifts/whatever for our two kids, but I sign all the cards Mommy and Daddy, and he is thanked as much as I am (and not at all if it's from Santa or the Easter bunny).

Every question I asked - what does claiming credit mean? Do you love your husband? Why is separated off the table? has not been answered thus far.

But mostly, my point was that due to whatever reasons (OP's pop physchology of diagnosing everyone in DH's family with something), DH is unlikely to magically change. OP is in control of herself and her responses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok, I understand why you don't want to focus on specific examples, because DCUM does usually grab hold of them and miss the bigger picture. But I'm not following your examples at all (the cousins thing was indecipherable).

I'm glad you said you were in therapy because I think you need to think about your contributions to this dynamic. But at the same time, I think you're overly invested in labels and diagnoses.

Let's pick the one example - easter. What does it mean he claims credit? Why is there any credit to claim? What is it you're looking for? What if you "drop the rope" - who cares if he claims credit? Anyone with an eyeball knows what you did and what your contribution is. I think if you want him to acknowledge and thank you, you need to accept you are probably never going to get that. So you do you - do what you want, and take pleasure in the acts you do themselves, not whether you "get credit." I'd explore in therapy why it matter so much to you and why you view it as triangulating.

I'm more concerned about the golden child/less favored child dynamic you describe with your kids. THat's harmful. I wonder how old your kids are? I suppose, to extend easter, you view it as husband claims credit, DD fawns all over daddy for all the things for easter, and you feel excluded from DD? Again, here I'd just drop the rope. If you're a strong, steady, loving presence in your children's lives, they will know this. It is natural for kids to favor one parent over another at various points. Just stay the course. (and quit labeling your kids, yourself).

Why is separating off the table? Just curious. Do you love your DH?

I think, overall, given the image you've described, you're never, ever, going otget exactly what you need/want from your husband. Decide what you will get from him, and whether you can live with it, and if you can live with it, you need ot make peace with it - which means not letting it get to you.

God, read the thread. A few posters have laid out in detail what is going on.

I read the entire thread. A few posters relayed what was happening in THEIR lives - but OP has been vague and confusing about what is going on in HER life. What does claiming credit for Easter mean? (And the cousin thing was never explained). Again, I do agree it is difficult to be married to someone like this, but OP is playing a role in the dynamic too. As can example, I have purchased 90% of the presents/holiday gifts/whatever for our two kids, but I sign all the cards Mommy and Daddy, and he is thanked as much as I am (and not at all if it's from Santa or the Easter bunny).

Every question I asked - what does claiming credit mean? Do you love your husband? Why is separated off the table? has not been answered thus far.

But mostly, my point was that due to whatever reasons (OP's pop physchology of diagnosing everyone in DH's family with something), DH is unlikely to magically change. OP is in control of herself and her responses.

Not OP. I’m the pp with the crazy mom. You’re right that diagnoses won’t really change anything about their behaviors, but it’s sort of like it legitimizes your experiences if you’re in OP’s situation if you know it’s a real illness and there’s a diagnosable reason to explain why a person is behaving the way they do. It also gives a chance for hope that things can get better. But mostly it helps you feel like you’re not crazy when people on the outside looking in are saying it can’t be that bad, and the person who’s supposed to love you most is undermining and gaslighting you to the point that it’s interfering with your relationship with your children. That’s probably why OP is looking for a diagnosis. After she knows why, she can start to figure out what’s the best way for her to move forward.

As far as taking credit for Easter goes, again, not OP and not trying to speak for her, but when you live with this as your normal, saying taking credit for Easter seems self explanatory, so I get why OP isn’t explaining it further. Then when someone questions it, you feel self conscious because you start to realize it’s not normal, and you’re probably about to be told you’re overreacting or crazy yourself. I’m guessing (based on experiences I’ve had) that taking credit for Easter means OP got the Easter outfits, took care of Easter baskets, scheduled Easter dinner (or Easter zoom or whatever extended family events happened), took care of cooking Easter dinner (or at least made the dish her family took to the extended family event), helped get the kids get dressed that morning, made sure the day stayed on track, took photos of the kids, etc. Then DH talked to whomever would listen about how exhausted he is from all the work, or how he always goes overboard and puts too much candy in the basket, or if the kids are old enough not to believe in the Easter bunny he probably led them to believe he took care of the baskets/gifts. If OP calls him out for any of it, I’m guessing he will be over dramatic and passive aggressive thanking her for everything she does. It’ll also make her look petty if she corrects the record in front of anyone else.

And for people saying drop the rope, let him plan the next event, that’ll backfire too. Here’s how that’ll go. Even if she gives him warning, he’ll most likely not do anything. Then he’ll blame her, even if he agreed to take charge, and he’ll do it just as publicly and passive aggressively as he took credit for Easter. Then, he’ll probably do something later to make up for it, like take the kids on an outing or buy a special gift since mommy forgot about Easter. Or, he’ll go so over the top, he’ll take it to crazy levels to prove how great he is at holidays. Like get them baby chicks or a rabbit for Easter, but then never help with caring for it. All with constant reminders of how last Easter, OP didn’t think he did enough, so this year he had to step it up. And then constantly taking credit for the damn bunny or whatever nonsense he brings into their home, leaving OP with more work and frustration.

OP, it’s probably not going to get any better. Even if it does, are you going to trust that he won’t revert? How often are you ok with him not respecting boundaries if you set them? Either learn to let go of the expectation that he is going to stop gaslighting you and behave normally, or figure out what boundaries you can live with and follow through. If you enforce boundaries, he’ll either change or you’ll change the situation in a way that makes you happier.