Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

+1

This describes my family's experience as well. Thank you so much for posting. The whole fallacy around "winning the lottery" to get into a "superior" charter school is utter garbage. When we decided to send our daughter to our IB EOTP school, I could not believe the responses we got from "friends" in DC who were appalled that we were not ranking charter schools above our IB DCPS option. We visited all the charter schools that are considered "superior" on DCUM and you know what? Our IB EOTP school checked far more boxes for our family than any of them. It's not only a commitment to our community that keeps us in our IB DCPS school, it's also the fact that it's the best school for my daughter. If more parents would actually visit these schools and give them an equal shot against their biased and misled assumptions about charter schools or WOTP DCPS, I'm willing to bet they'd come to the same conclusion.

Yes - we got this too! A lot of times, it's a Tier 2 charter school that's no better than (and sometimes worse than) our EOTP DCPS. All I can do is nod and say "congrats - I hope it's a great fit for your child".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1

This describes my family's experience as well. Thank you so much for posting. The whole fallacy around "winning the lottery" to get into a "superior" charter school is utter garbage. When we decided to send our daughter to our IB EOTP school, I could not believe the responses we got from "friends" in DC who were appalled that we were not ranking charter schools above our IB DCPS option. We visited all the charter schools that are considered "superior" on DCUM and you know what? Our IB EOTP school checked far more boxes for our family than any of them. It's not only a commitment to our community that keeps us in our IB DCPS school, it's also the fact that it's the best school for my daughter. If more parents would actually visit these schools and give them an equal shot against their biased and misled assumptions about charter schools or WOTP DCPS, I'm willing to bet they'd come to the same conclusion.

Yes - we got this too! A lot of times, it's a Tier 2 charter school that's no better than (and sometimes worse than) our EOTP DCPS. All I can do is nod and say "congrats - I hope it's a great fit for your child".

PP who the +1 was directed at here. I got the same commentary several years in a row. It came from one of three sources: parents who moved to the suburbs when they had children, parents whose children are 10+ years old who lotteried WOTP, and parents of 3 year olds who had no actual experience with the schools they were trashing and mostly had not even stepped foot inside them.

Those conversations were exhausting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Vote here!

Definitely the latter camp here. We go to a WOTP DCPS but live in ward 1. I'm pretty sure if all the high SES kids went to our IB school, we'd have a great walkable option.

Sounds like to live in a neighborhood with a substantial number of high SES families. Not all DC residents are so lucky (or wealthy). I think the charters (or OOB spots, or city wide schools like SWS and CH Montessori) are good options, and they can be a livesaver for families in high poverty neighborhoods, where the IB school is saturated with high needs kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If there were no charters and no OOB then our neighborhood school would without any doubt be excellent.

It's currently a good school with a great principal, but results suffer in the testing grades because of high poverty and the problems associated with it. If all the high(er) SES families in the neighborhood (really the majority now) sent their kids there the school would be more diverse, there would be more involved parents and everyone would benefit.

There's this fallacy here on DCUM that a charter somehow is hugely superior to DCPS, when in many cases the notable differences (aside from some specialist focus) is the higher SES of the students. Our local DCPS schools (Langley and Seaton) don't differ significantly in terms of teaching staff, extra curriculars, resources or buildings from any of the HRCS I toured.

Not true of the charter sector as a whole - you can't just consider the so-called HRCs when talking about DCPS vs Charters. The students in charter schools are, on the whole, more disadvantaged than the students in DCPS. And the kids in those schools, on average, are doing better than those in DCPS. http://www.dcpcsb.org/facts-and-figures-student-demographics

I think that's weighted heavily by the Prep-type academies, which show significantly better results in high poverty schools than DCPS. On average, Charters and DCPS are pretty close in performance. It would be interesting to see the data broken down to see if DCPS actually outperforms Charters with kids from mid / high SES families.

This entire line of argument is so very, very useless to the real work decisions that families must make about their kid's education. Other than navel gazing public olicy people and bored SAHM/SAHD on DCUM, no one sits around and looks at blended PARCC score data to determine whether to send their kid to DCPS or a charter. If they are looking at scores (I know I do) they are looking at comparisons of schools at which their kid could attend. I don't live in upper NW so the scores of JKLM are not going to help me decide if I am comfortable with my IB DCPS school. And I'm no more sending my kid to a crappy Tier 3 charter than I am sending them to KIPP, so those scores are of no interest to me either. My decision is about individual schools that are possibilities for my family based on location (commute), school offerings, success rates, etc.

I look at scores (along with visiting schools, neighborhoods, etc) to see if it is worth moving to different parts of DC or leaving DC altogether.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1

This describes my family's experience as well. Thank you so much for posting. The whole fallacy around "winning the lottery" to get into a "superior" charter school is utter garbage. When we decided to send our daughter to our IB EOTP school, I could not believe the responses we got from "friends" in DC who were appalled that we were not ranking charter schools above our IB DCPS option. We visited all the charter schools that are considered "superior" on DCUM and you know what? Our IB EOTP school checked far more boxes for our family than any of them. It's not only a commitment to our community that keeps us in our IB DCPS school, it's also the fact that it's the best school for my daughter. If more parents would actually visit these schools and give them an equal shot against their biased and misled assumptions about charter schools or WOTP DCPS, I'm willing to bet they'd come to the same conclusion.

Yes - we got this too! A lot of times, it's a Tier 2 charter school that's no better than (and sometimes worse than) our EOTP DCPS. All I can do is nod and say "congrats - I hope it's a great fit for your child".

PP who the +1 was directed at here. I got the same commentary several years in a row. It came from one of three sources: parents who moved to the suburbs when they had children, parents whose children are 10+ years old who lotteried WOTP, and parents of 3 year olds who had no actual experience with the schools they were trashing and mostly had not even stepped foot inside them.

Those conversations were exhausting.

One of the issues is while some schools can be great in the PK years, because of the lottery you can show up the next year and a large majority of the parents and kids you became used to have left your school. Suddenly the school becomes a very different place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vote here!

Definitely the latter camp here. We go to a WOTP DCPS but live in ward 1. I'm pretty sure if all the high SES kids went to our IB school, we'd have a great walkable option.

The irony that you make this about charters, when you go to another school OOB.

Maybe say, get rid of the OOB lottery. Why should you get to go to a WOTP school when you don't live there?

+1. What a great example of hypocresy.

OP here and I agree we are hypocritices. But that still doesn't preclue us from wishing we could go to our neighborhood school, so let me clarify that I think both the OOB process and charters are harming some neighborhood schools that could really stand on their own if motivated/connected/afraid-of-poors families had no choice but to attend them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are you kidding me?

DCPS had a long time as the only player in town. And they didn't improve across the board enough to attract middle class families to stay. Hence, charters enter.

We are at a HRCS- despite being inbounds for an excellent DCPS. We just chose the learning model that our HRCS provides as being the right fit for our family.

And contrary to the previous poster, LAMB, Yu Ying, Mundo Verde- they are real options, and their existence allows multiple families to stay in DC and build long term roots.

I agree, but some charter proponents want it both ways -- they want the freedom beyond their neighborhood by right options yet complain about commutes and impact of location due to facilities constraints. I do sympathize with families who locate close to charters only to have them later move, but I can be well assured my neighborhood DCPS school will not move, nor is it threatened with closure due to low enrollment.

Charters aren't a monolithic entity either. They serve a wide range of interests, and in DC they've benefitted many DCPS families by providing middle school options which were otherwise deficient. That has a secondary benefit of allowing younger siblings to remain in DCPS elementary schools while older siblings attend charters. Language immersion is another area where charters have provided more options than DCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you kidding me?

DCPS had a long time as the only player in town. And they didn't improve across the board enough to attract middle class families to stay. Hence, charters enter.

We are at a HRCS- despite being inbounds for an excellent DCPS. We just chose the learning model that our HRCS provides as being the right fit for our family.

And contrary to the previous poster, LAMB, Yu Ying, Mundo Verde- they are real options, and their existence allows multiple families to stay in DC and build long term roots.

I agree, but some charter proponents want it both ways -- they want the freedom beyond their neighborhood by right options yet complain about commutes and impact of location due to facilities constraints. I do sympathize with families who locate close to charters only to have them later move, but I can be well assured my neighborhood DCPS school will not move, nor is it threatened with closure due to low enrollment.

Charters aren't a monolithic entity either. They serve a wide range of interests, and in DC they've benefitted many DCPS families by providing middle school options which were otherwise deficient. That has a secondary benefit of allowing younger siblings to remain in DCPS elementary schools while older siblings attend charters. Language immersion is another area where charters have provided more options than DCPS.

Our IB DCPS changed due to redistricting so it is a myth that DCPS always remain the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If there were no charters, I think we would have a majority middle/high SES elementary school (Watkins). The demographics exist in the neighborhood but so many of the kids end up somewhere else starting in pk3, pk4 and K. I don't think the neighborhood would have gentrified to this extent without charters, but I would love to see them abolished tomorrow and see how things shake out. Sadly that ship has sailed.

some of those families starting elsewhere do so out of necessity because they're turned away from IB Peabody. Some seek out options like language immersion only available at Tyler (Spanish and finite slots). I think it's reductionist to frame this neighborhood vs charters. Every family assesses cost/benefits of convenience vs pedagogy or a wide range of other factors and then determines which works best for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1

This describes my family's experience as well. Thank you so much for posting. The whole fallacy around "winning the lottery" to get into a "superior" charter school is utter garbage. When we decided to send our daughter to our IB EOTP school, I could not believe the responses we got from "friends" in DC who were appalled that we were not ranking charter schools above our IB DCPS option. We visited all the charter schools that are considered "superior" on DCUM and you know what? Our IB EOTP school checked far more boxes for our family than any of them. It's not only a commitment to our community that keeps us in our IB DCPS school, it's also the fact that it's the best school for my daughter. If more parents would actually visit these schools and give them an equal shot against their biased and misled assumptions about charter schools or WOTP DCPS, I'm willing to bet they'd come to the same conclusion.

Yes - we got this too! A lot of times, it's a Tier 2 charter school that's no better than (and sometimes worse than) our EOTP DCPS. All I can do is nod and say "congrats - I hope it's a great fit for your child".

PP who the +1 was directed at here. I got the same commentary several years in a row. It came from one of three sources: parents who moved to the suburbs when they had children, parents whose children are 10+ years old who lotteried WOTP, and parents of 3 year olds who had no actual experience with the schools they were trashing and mostly had not even stepped foot inside them.

Those conversations were exhausting.

One of the issues is while some schools can be great in the PK years, because of the lottery you can show up the next year and a large majority of the parents and kids you became used to have left your school. Suddenly the school becomes a very different place.

Why are the schools good enough when these families are there and then suddenly not good enough when they are not? Can you not make new friends?

And where are they going? If they are choosing charters, hence the question wondering if charters are holding your neighborhood schools back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you kidding me?

DCPS had a long time as the only player in town. And they didn't improve across the board enough to attract middle class families to stay. Hence, charters enter.

We are at a HRCS- despite being inbounds for an excellent DCPS. We just chose the learning model that our HRCS provides as being the right fit for our family.

And contrary to the previous poster, LAMB, Yu Ying, Mundo Verde- they are real options, and their existence allows multiple families to stay in DC and build long term roots.

I agree, but some charter proponents want it both ways -- they want the freedom beyond their neighborhood by right options yet complain about commutes and impact of location due to facilities constraints. I do sympathize with families who locate close to charters only to have them later move, but I can be well assured my neighborhood DCPS school will not move, nor is it threatened with closure due to low enrollment.

Charters aren't a monolithic entity either. They serve a wide range of interests, and in DC they've benefitted many DCPS families by providing middle school options which were otherwise deficient. That has a secondary benefit of allowing younger siblings to remain in DCPS elementary schools while older siblings attend charters. Language immersion is another area where charters have provided more options than DCPS.

Our IB DCPS changed due to redistricting so it is a myth that DCPS always remain the same.

boundary changed, but you're only impacted if you're not yet enrolled in the school. There is a lot of accommodation for grandfathering for those concerned about the actual school and not the potential hit on real estate valuation. You're also assigned another neighborhood school within < 1 mile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1

This describes my family's experience as well. Thank you so much for posting. The whole fallacy around "winning the lottery" to get into a "superior" charter school is utter garbage. When we decided to send our daughter to our IB EOTP school, I could not believe the responses we got from "friends" in DC who were appalled that we were not ranking charter schools above our IB DCPS option. We visited all the charter schools that are considered "superior" on DCUM and you know what? Our IB EOTP school checked far more boxes for our family than any of them. It's not only a commitment to our community that keeps us in our IB DCPS school, it's also the fact that it's the best school for my daughter. If more parents would actually visit these schools and give them an equal shot against their biased and misled assumptions about charter schools or WOTP DCPS, I'm willing to bet they'd come to the same conclusion.

Yes - we got this too! A lot of times, it's a Tier 2 charter school that's no better than (and sometimes worse than) our EOTP DCPS. All I can do is nod and say "congrats - I hope it's a great fit for your child".

PP who the +1 was directed at here. I got the same commentary several years in a row. It came from one of three sources: parents who moved to the suburbs when they had children, parents whose children are 10+ years old who lotteried WOTP, and parents of 3 year olds who had no actual experience with the schools they were trashing and mostly had not even stepped foot inside them.

Those conversations were exhausting.

One of the issues is while some schools can be great in the PK years, because of the lottery you can show up the next year and a large majority of the parents and kids you became used to have left your school. Suddenly the school becomes a very different place.

I agree that that happens, but in my experience, it is the gentrifiers (word used descriptively, not condemningly) who are leaving after PK. My daughter's best friends at school are not high SES white kids, so we don't spend the most time with those folks. I have seen many of my high SES friends at other schools constantly "trading up" to go to "better" schools, with the result that their 5 year olds have attended 3 different schools. I sometimes wish that people would actually lose their seat if they play the lottery, but I know that won't help the situation and will just piss people off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vote here!

Definitely the latter camp here. We go to a WOTP DCPS but live in ward 1. I'm pretty sure if all the high SES kids went to our IB school, we'd have a great walkable option.

The irony that you make this about charters, when you go to another school OOB.

Maybe say, get rid of the OOB lottery. Why should you get to go to a WOTP school when you don't live there?

+1. What a great example of hypocresy.

OP here and I agree we are hypocritices. But that still doesn't preclue us from wishing we could go to our neighborhood school, so let me clarify that I think both the OOB process and charters are harming some neighborhood schools that could really stand on their own if motivated/connected/afraid-of-poors families had no choice but to attend them.

So...very...confused. You CAN go to your neighborhood school. You simply choose not to. Because you have the means (time, money, familial support) to schlep your kid to WOTP schools. People with means will always have a choice; to move, to pay for private schools, etc. The people without means do not have choices.

And what would you have happen to the people who live in areas where the schools are not good?

[Anonymous]

yeah, the trading up people are the worst.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At this point, charters are holding our local DCPS back. Would it be as good as it is without charter competition? Who knows.

I do agree that DC parents have too much choice now. When competition is used to weed out bad restaurants, you just have people visiting a restaurant or two that the don't like. When you use a competition model to try to create school quality, you get a lot of churn, and the research shows that frequently moving kids from school to school is detrimental to them psychologically. None of the countries that kick our asses on those international tests try to achieve scholl quality via the market.

People also have this illusion that LAMB and Yu Ying are real options. They take 2-3% of applicants. They aren't options.

Yep. Stanford's 5% and CalTech's 8%. This is a joke.