Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the two alternatives presented by the OP present a fair picture of what's going on.

I think it's more accurate to say (for our family) that charters are keeping us in DC AND they are holding back our DCPS.

The charters are also (1) adding to the variety of academic programs that are available to us; (2) creating an incentive for DCPS to do better; and (3) illustrating for DCPS what parents want. Considering all of the above, I think they are good for the system as a whole, even though they are holding back our in boundary DCPS elementary school.

on 2) -- the overall results are largely comparable between DCPS and charters. if charters are pushing DCPS to improve academically one would assume a larger differential on outcomes

hmm. I don't agree with that assumption. There only needs to be a perceived difference in quality to motivate parents to switch, and as a parent I don't think a statistic showing overall results would be very persuasive. I'm interested in what I think is best for my kids, and I thought the charter option was better than in boundary DCPS, so that's the decision I made. I think DCPS is definitely pushed to improved by the fact that so many (including myself) are voting with their feet and enrolling their kids in charters.

so evidence and data don't carry much weight. got it.

Correct. Perception wins the day for the most part. That's why marketing makes such a huge difference. Not that there aren't differences, just not such a chasm as some partisans on here would have you think.

there are genuine differences. pedagogy, discipline, etc. There isn't a gold standard for measuring quality. scores are over-emphasized because that's the closest you'll get to a baseline measurement, but scores rarely provide a complete or definitive picture.

DCPS is doing a lot better attracting and retaining families than it did 5-10 years ago, but it depends on the level. MS is a weak spot (Deal notwithstanding), but the HS landscape is superior for DCPS compared to charters (and graduation rates are better)

Hah! That is a flat out lie. Charter school graduation rates are better, and it's quite stark at the HS level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vote here!

Definitely the latter camp here. We go to a WOTP DCPS but live in ward 1. I'm pretty sure if all the high SES kids went to our IB school, we'd have a great walkable option.

The irony that you make this about charters, when you go to another school OOB.

Maybe say, get rid of the OOB lottery. Why should you get to go to a WOTP school when you don't live there?

+1. What a great example of hypocresy.

OP here and I agree we are hypocritices. But that still doesn't preclue us from wishing we could go to our neighborhood school, so let me clarify that I think both the OOB process and charters are harming some neighborhood schools that could really stand on their own if motivated/connected/afraid-of-poors families had no choice but to attend them.

Depriving people of choices is never a recipe for success.

Please quit with the BS "afraid of poors"--we have 50 years of research that shows the poverty/achievement gap is huge and real and almost always correlates for major behaviroal issues. Its a well known fact that schools with more than 30% FARMS hurt both high and low SES kids. Its not fear, its informed parents trying to do the right thing for their kid. I am amazed at the number of parents who are willing to sacrifice their kids well being, education etc just to make a point about public schools.

I'm not sure whom you are speaking to, but you are high as a kite and crazy as a loon if you think depriving people of choices for their lives, their children, their educations, their diets, their friends, their livelihoods (must I go on?) is any formula for anything other than failure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please quit with the BS "afraid of poors"--we have 50 years of research that shows the poverty/achievement gap is huge and real and almost always correlates for major behaviroal issues. Its a well known fact that schools with more than 30% FARMS hurt both high and low SES kids. Its not fear, its informed parents trying to do the right thing for their kid. I am amazed at the number of parents who are willing to sacrifice their kids well being, education etc just to make a point about public schools.

but there many charters with FARM rates well above that threshold

I'm not the PP, but yes there are. My son goes to a high performing charter with 75% FARMS. We love it, he loves school, and it's been a really good fit for my family. I didn't choose my neighborhood school because I wasn't impressed with it at the time, and now I'm living in a different part of the city, and am really glad my son didn't have to change schools when we moved (he would have - the commute would have been prohibitive even if we had been allowed to stay).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please quit with the BS "afraid of poors"--we have 50 years of research that shows the poverty/achievement gap is huge and real and almost always correlates for major behaviroal issues. Its a well known fact that schools with more than 30% FARMS hurt both high and low SES kids. Its not fear, its informed parents trying to do the right thing for their kid. I am amazed at the number of parents who are willing to sacrifice their kids well being, education etc just to make a point about public schools.

but there many charters with FARM rates well above that threshold

Clearly anybody attending doesn't care about the well-being of their children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the two alternatives presented by the OP present a fair picture of what's going on.

I think it's more accurate to say (for our family) that charters are keeping us in DC AND they are holding back our DCPS.

The charters are also (1) adding to the variety of academic programs that are available to us; (2) creating an incentive for DCPS to do better; and (3) illustrating for DCPS what parents want. Considering all of the above, I think they are good for the system as a whole, even though they are holding back our in boundary DCPS elementary school.

on 2) -- the overall results are largely comparable between DCPS and charters. if charters are pushing DCPS to improve academically one would assume a larger differential on outcomes

hmm. I don't agree with that assumption. There only needs to be a perceived difference in quality to motivate parents to switch, and as a parent I don't think a statistic showing overall results would be very persuasive. I'm interested in what I think is best for my kids, and I thought the charter option was better than in boundary DCPS, so that's the decision I made. I think DCPS is definitely pushed to improved by the fact that so many (including myself) are voting with their feet and enrolling their kids in charters.

so evidence and data don't carry much weight. got it.

Correct. Perception wins the day for the most part. That's why marketing makes such a huge difference. Not that there aren't differences, just not such a chasm as some partisans on here would have you think.

there are genuine differences. pedagogy, discipline, etc. There isn't a gold standard for measuring quality. scores are over-emphasized because that's the closest you'll get to a baseline measurement, but scores rarely provide a complete or definitive picture.

DCPS is doing a lot better attracting and retaining families than it did 5-10 years ago, but it depends on the level. MS is a weak spot (Deal notwithstanding), but the HS landscape is superior for DCPS compared to charters (and graduation rates are better)

Hah! That is a flat out lie. Charter school graduation rates are better, and it's quite stark at the HS level.

DCPS 64% Charters 71%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please quit with the BS "afraid of poors"--we have 50 years of research that shows the poverty/achievement gap is huge and real and almost always correlates for major behaviroal issues. Its a well known fact that schools with more than 30% FARMS hurt both high and low SES kids. Its not fear, its informed parents trying to do the right thing for their kid. I am amazed at the number of parents who are willing to sacrifice their kids well being, education etc just to make a point about public schools.

I send my child to our neighborhood school EOTP. Our official FARMs rate is 99%. Our actual FARMs rate is around 40%. I am not "sacrificing my kid['s] well being, education, etc. to make a point about education. I'm sending my child to school in the neighborhood where we live. My problem with the OOB people is that they're perfectly happy to live in the neighborhood and take advantage of the housing market in that neighborhood, but they're not willing to send their kids to the schools there. The "have my cake and eat it too" is bad enough, but when people then say that I'm sacrificing something for my kid (who is doing just fine) to make a point? No, it's called living in the neighborhood.

+1 same here. We love and support as 75%+ FARMs school, as do most families. College educated parents - amazing teachers - our kid is going to be fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the two alternatives presented by the OP present a fair picture of what's going on.

I think it's more accurate to say (for our family) that charters are keeping us in DC AND they are holding back our DCPS.

The charters are also (1) adding to the variety of academic programs that are available to us; (2) creating an incentive for DCPS to do better; and (3) illustrating for DCPS what parents want. Considering all of the above, I think they are good for the system as a whole, even though they are holding back our in boundary DCPS elementary school.

on 2) -- the overall results are largely comparable between DCPS and charters. if charters are pushing DCPS to improve academically one would assume a larger differential on outcomes

hmm. I don't agree with that assumption. There only needs to be a perceived difference in quality to motivate parents to switch, and as a parent I don't think a statistic showing overall results would be very persuasive. I'm interested in what I think is best for my kids, and I thought the charter option was better than in boundary DCPS, so that's the decision I made. I think DCPS is definitely pushed to improved by the fact that so many (including myself) are voting with their feet and enrolling their kids in charters.

so evidence and data don't carry much weight. got it.

Correct. Perception wins the day for the most part. That's why marketing makes such a huge difference. Not that there aren't differences, just not such a chasm as some partisans on here would have you think.

there are genuine differences. pedagogy, discipline, etc. There isn't a gold standard for measuring quality. scores are over-emphasized because that's the closest you'll get to a baseline measurement, but scores rarely provide a complete or definitive picture.

DCPS is doing a lot better attracting and retaining families than it did 5-10 years ago, but it depends on the level. MS is a weak spot (Deal notwithstanding), but the HS landscape is superior for DCPS compared to charters (and graduation rates are better)

Hah! That is a flat out lie. Charter school graduation rates are better, and it's quite stark at the HS level.

DCPS 64% Charters 71%

PP here -- sorry -- I meant the rates are improving faster for DCPS than charters but there's also more ground to make up. Also DCPS can't pass along troublesome students and bear more of the burden of dropouts (but in fairness there are a few 'last chance' type charters). Only option is outright expulsion.

[Anonymous]

Try becoming friends with DC or DC area natives. Not nearly as competitive or unpleasant. Just normal people.

Charters keep us in DC so far.

[Anonymous]

Our inbound is Noyes. Enough said. Our charter keeps us in DC, absolutely. I was ready to put the house on the market if we didn't lottery into something else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the two alternatives presented by the OP present a fair picture of what's going on.

I think it's more accurate to say (for our family) that charters are keeping us in DC AND they are holding back our DCPS.

The charters are also (1) adding to the variety of academic programs that are available to us; (2) creating an incentive for DCPS to do better; and (3) illustrating for DCPS what parents want. Considering all of the above, I think they are good for the system as a whole, even though they are holding back our in boundary DCPS elementary school.

on 2) -- the overall results are largely comparable between DCPS and charters. if charters are pushing DCPS to improve academically one would assume a larger differential on outcomes

hmm. I don't agree with that assumption. There only needs to be a perceived difference in quality to motivate parents to switch, and as a parent I don't think a statistic showing overall results would be very persuasive. I'm interested in what I think is best for my kids, and I thought the charter option was better than in boundary DCPS, so that's the decision I made. I think DCPS is definitely pushed to improved by the fact that so many (including myself) are voting with their feet and enrolling their kids in charters.

so evidence and data don't carry much weight. got it.

Correct. Perception wins the day for the most part. That's why marketing makes such a huge difference. Not that there aren't differences, just not such a chasm as some partisans on here would have you think.

there are genuine differences. pedagogy, discipline, etc. There isn't a gold standard for measuring quality. scores are over-emphasized because that's the closest you'll get to a baseline measurement, but scores rarely provide a complete or definitive picture.

DCPS is doing a lot better attracting and retaining families than it did 5-10 years ago, but it depends on the level. MS is a weak spot (Deal notwithstanding), but the HS landscape is superior for DCPS compared to charters (and graduation rates are better)

Hah! That is a flat out lie. Charter school graduation rates are better, and it's quite stark at the HS level.

DCPS 64% Charters 71%

71% obviously better than 64%, and charters are improving faster as well - and doing a better job with more challenging groups of students.

Anyone who tried to yank those students out of their charters into neighborhood schools is a moron who can't do math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the two alternatives presented by the OP present a fair picture of what's going on.

I think it's more accurate to say (for our family) that charters are keeping us in DC AND they are holding back our DCPS.

The charters are also (1) adding to the variety of academic programs that are available to us; (2) creating an incentive for DCPS to do better; and (3) illustrating for DCPS what parents want. Considering all of the above, I think they are good for the system as a whole, even though they are holding back our in boundary DCPS elementary school.

on 2) -- the overall results are largely comparable between DCPS and charters. if charters are pushing DCPS to improve academically one would assume a larger differential on outcomes

hmm. I don't agree with that assumption. There only needs to be a perceived difference in quality to motivate parents to switch, and as a parent I don't think a statistic showing overall results would be very persuasive. I'm interested in what I think is best for my kids, and I thought the charter option was better than in boundary DCPS, so that's the decision I made. I think DCPS is definitely pushed to improved by the fact that so many (including myself) are voting with their feet and enrolling their kids in charters.

so evidence and data don't carry much weight. got it.

Correct. Perception wins the day for the most part. That's why marketing makes such a huge difference. Not that there aren't differences, just not such a chasm as some partisans on here would have you think.

there are genuine differences. pedagogy, discipline, etc. There isn't a gold standard for measuring quality. scores are over-emphasized because that's the closest you'll get to a baseline measurement, but scores rarely provide a complete or definitive picture.

DCPS is doing a lot better attracting and retaining families than it did 5-10 years ago, but it depends on the level. MS is a weak spot (Deal notwithstanding), but the HS landscape is superior for DCPS compared to charters (and graduation rates are better)

Hah! That is a flat out lie. Charter school graduation rates are better, and it's quite stark at the HS level.

DCPS 64% Charters 71%

71% obviously better than 64%, and charters are improving faster as well - and doing a better job with more challenging groups of students.

Anyone who tried to yank those students out of their charters into neighborhood schools is a moron who can't do math.

I'm the one who posted the data, but I have to dispute what I've bolded above. When it comes to trying to graduate 19 & 20-year-olds that is all on DCPS, and that's a big part of what's dragging them down. Charters have tough populations, but the hardest casts get pushed back to DCPS where they end up at Metropolitan or STAY (if they stay in school at all).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the two alternatives presented by the OP present a fair picture of what's going on.

I think it's more accurate to say (for our family) that charters are keeping us in DC AND they are holding back our DCPS.

The charters are also (1) adding to the variety of academic programs that are available to us; (2) creating an incentive for DCPS to do better; and (3) illustrating for DCPS what parents want. Considering all of the above, I think they are good for the system as a whole, even though they are holding back our in boundary DCPS elementary school.

on 2) -- the overall results are largely comparable between DCPS and charters. if charters are pushing DCPS to improve academically one would assume a larger differential on outcomes

hmm. I don't agree with that assumption. There only needs to be a perceived difference in quality to motivate parents to switch, and as a parent I don't think a statistic showing overall results would be very persuasive. I'm interested in what I think is best for my kids, and I thought the charter option was better than in boundary DCPS, so that's the decision I made. I think DCPS is definitely pushed to improved by the fact that so many (including myself) are voting with their feet and enrolling their kids in charters.

so evidence and data don't carry much weight. got it.

Correct. Perception wins the day for the most part. That's why marketing makes such a huge difference. Not that there aren't differences, just not such a chasm as some partisans on here would have you think.

there are genuine differences. pedagogy, discipline, etc. There isn't a gold standard for measuring quality. scores are over-emphasized because that's the closest you'll get to a baseline measurement, but scores rarely provide a complete or definitive picture.

DCPS is doing a lot better attracting and retaining families than it did 5-10 years ago, but it depends on the level. MS is a weak spot (Deal notwithstanding), but the HS landscape is superior for DCPS compared to charters (and graduation rates are better)

Hah! That is a flat out lie. Charter school graduation rates are better, and it's quite stark at the HS level.

DCPS 64% Charters 71%

71% obviously better than 64%, and charters are improving faster as well - and doing a better job with more challenging groups of students.

Anyone who tried to yank those students out of their charters into neighborhood schools is a moron who can't do math.

If you base your school choice on 71% vs. 64% then you're worse off than a moron who can't do math. Thankfully, you must just be a troll / Charter shill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please quit with the BS "afraid of poors"--we have 50 years of research that shows the poverty/achievement gap is huge and real and almost always correlates for major behaviroal issues. Its a well known fact that schools with more than 30% FARMS hurt both high and low SES kids. Its not fear, its informed parents trying to do the right thing for their kid. I am amazed at the number of parents who are willing to sacrifice their kids well being, education etc just to make a point about public schools.

I send my child to our neighborhood school EOTP. Our official FARMs rate is 99%. Our actual FARMs rate is around 40%. I am not "sacrificing my kid['s] well being, education, etc. to make a point about education. I'm sending my child to school in the neighborhood where we live. My problem with the OOB people is that they're perfectly happy to live in the neighborhood and take advantage of the housing market in that neighborhood, but they're not willing to send their kids to the schools there. The "have my cake and eat it too" is bad enough, but when people then say that I'm sacrificing something for my kid (who is doing just fine) to make a point? No, it's called living in the neighborhood.

+1 same here. We love and support as 75%+ FARMs school, as do most families. College educated parents - amazing teachers - our kid is going to be fine.

I can practically guarantee that this isn't middle school and that you won't be at a middle school with that statistic

[Anonymous]

I can practically guarantee that this isn't middle school and that you won't be at a middle school with that statistic

I'm not the PP, but why are you such an ass?

We get it. You don't like FARMS kids. You mention it a lot.

The magnet I went to growing up in a relatively dysfunctional eastern city had a FARMS rate (not that we called it that) of at least 40%... and it did not suck. Poor is not contagious. Most of the people you profess to admire--the people who give you that "culture" you're always yammering on about--are actually not rich. Some of their families probably qualify for free lunch. Some of your children's teachers families may qualify for it too. That adjunct teaching your little Madison her intro History class at Goucher almost certainly qualifies for FARMS. Your husband's admin might qualify for FARMS. You are surrounded, every day, by people who might have less than you do. That doesn't make them bad, or lazy, or make their lives the products of bad decision-making.

There is something deeply wrong with your way of thinking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the two alternatives presented by the OP present a fair picture of what's going on.

I think it's more accurate to say (for our family) that charters are keeping us in DC AND they are holding back our DCPS.

The charters are also (1) adding to the variety of academic programs that are available to us; (2) creating an incentive for DCPS to do better; and (3) illustrating for DCPS what parents want. Considering all of the above, I think they are good for the system as a whole, even though they are holding back our in boundary DCPS elementary school.

on 2) -- the overall results are largely comparable between DCPS and charters. if charters are pushing DCPS to improve academically one would assume a larger differential on outcomes

hmm. I don't agree with that assumption. There only needs to be a perceived difference in quality to motivate parents to switch, and as a parent I don't think a statistic showing overall results would be very persuasive. I'm interested in what I think is best for my kids, and I thought the charter option was better than in boundary DCPS, so that's the decision I made. I think DCPS is definitely pushed to improved by the fact that so many (including myself) are voting with their feet and enrolling their kids in charters.

so evidence and data don't carry much weight. got it.

Correct. Perception wins the day for the most part. That's why marketing makes such a huge difference. Not that there aren't differences, just not such a chasm as some partisans on here would have you think.

there are genuine differences. pedagogy, discipline, etc. There isn't a gold standard for measuring quality. scores are over-emphasized because that's the closest you'll get to a baseline measurement, but scores rarely provide a complete or definitive picture.

DCPS is doing a lot better attracting and retaining families than it did 5-10 years ago, but it depends on the level. MS is a weak spot (Deal notwithstanding), but the HS landscape is superior for DCPS compared to charters (and graduation rates are better)

Hah! That is a flat out lie. Charter school graduation rates are better, and it's quite stark at the HS level.

DCPS 64% Charters 71%

71% obviously better than 64%, and charters are improving faster as well - and doing a better job with more challenging groups of students.

Anyone who tried to yank those students out of their charters into neighborhood schools is a moron who can't do math.

If you base your school choice on 71% vs. 64% then you're worse off than a moron who can't do math. Thankfully, you must just be a troll / Charter shill.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/graduation-rates-up-in-dc-public-schools-down-for-charter-schools/2015/03/17/a8223424-cc0c-11e4-8a46-b1dc9be5a8ff_story.html