Are charters keeping you in DC - or are they holding back your neighborhood DCPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We were looking for houses in silver spring when we won the lottery and bought in NE DC instead.

I think the question is what would have happened if you and you neighbors actually gave it a shot and enrolled in your DCPS instead of automatically assuming DCPS wouldn't cut it. I am a charter parent so I'm not making judgments I am also curious about this question. Deal for instance was largely OOB until the last decade or so. Now you see the same changes being made at Bancroft, Hardy, Shepherd, Brent, Ross, Eaton, Hearst. Folk EOTP are just as wealthy and educated as WOTP if they would've collectively enrolled in DCPS would they have changed faster or did DCPS need the competition of charters? Chicken or the egg. Personally, I think charters lit the fire but would like to see DCPS continue to make a comeback. Charters also introduced more school choice which has hurt DCPS and charters alike. Too much movement and too many parents feel entitled to a tailored for school that offers XYZ.

Agree with this comment. We live in Shaw and are inbound for Seaton -- look how much momentum that school has today with many newcomers sending their kids there, and with great teachers and an award-winning principal! We got into Cleveland for Spanish immersion and have been mostly happy with the school. There are things the school can learn from charters and other highly sought after schools, like more play time, recess and afterschool enrichment, as well as LESS homework (!) but my kids are learning a ton. We have friends who chanced it at Garrison and Seaton and were very nervous, but have loved their experiences so far.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing. I think that charters kept a lot of high SES families who did not want to or were not able to move to upper NW in the city when their children reached school age. The charters also provided a way for them to avoid the low SES people who live in their neighborhoods and other parts of the city who do send their kids to the neighborhood schools.

At this point, I think that for the high SES people who bought houses in Columbia Heights and Petworth and Brookland, the myth of charters-as-escape-hatch is what is keeping them in DC. They say, "We can play the lottery" and then they say "Our IB school is fine for PK or K, but then we'll see." For the families who are engaging in that kind of thinking, at least in my experience, their kids are kindergarten age. None of them (us, really - my kid is in K) have had to face the realities of the middle school situation. It is hard hearing from the hardened lifers about how they tried, failed, and moved to Arlington because we still think that maybe this time it'll work for us.

Will it? Or are we Charlie Brown with the football? My DD goes to our not-well-regarded IB school, where we are happy, but I'm still concerned for the future.

Thing is it isn't/wasn't a "myth" to our family. Ward 4 charter family - IB for Takoma and Coolidge high school.

Kids went to LAMB (starting in 2004 when it was new and unproven) and attend a charter middle and a charter high school. Younger may try to go to an application high school when the time comes.

We looked at our IB for PK/K and it was filled with kids who lived no where near our neighborhood and commuted there every day via the Metro. For us it was a city-wide charter over a city-wide DCPS, which is what our IB was at the time.

Without question we would have left DC if charters didn't exist.

I said "at this point" and then mentioned that the kids of the people for whom is it not a viable back up plan are in kindergarten or below. Your children being in middle schools puts you solidly in the camp of people for whom it wasn't a myth. There are not as many seats in charter schools as there were when you were entering the system, and your younger kids get sibling preference now anyway.

I'm talking about people who moved into those areas and had their first child in 2009/2010 or later and bought in those areas thinking that the neighborhood school would be fine at first and then there's charters. I know a lot of people that applies to, and many of them did not seem to consider what would happen if there were NOT charters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing. I think that charters kept a lot of high SES families who did not want to or were not able to move to upper NW in the city when their children reached school age. The charters also provided a way for them to avoid the low SES people who live in their neighborhoods and other parts of the city who do send their kids to the neighborhood schools.

At this point, I think that for the high SES people who bought houses in Columbia Heights and Petworth and Brookland, the myth of charters-as-escape-hatch is what is keeping them in DC. They say, "We can play the lottery" and then they say "Our IB school is fine for PK or K, but then we'll see." For the families who are engaging in that kind of thinking, at least in my experience, their kids are kindergarten age. None of them (us, really - my kid is in K) have had to face the realities of the middle school situation. It is hard hearing from the hardened lifers about how they tried, failed, and moved to Arlington because we still think that maybe this time it'll work for us.

Will it? Or are we Charlie Brown with the football? My DD goes to our not-well-regarded IB school, where we are happy, but I'm still concerned for the future.

Thing is it isn't/wasn't a "myth" to our family. Ward 4 charter family - IB for Takoma and Coolidge high school.

Kids went to LAMB (starting in 2004 when it was new and unproven) and attend a charter middle and a charter high school. Younger may try to go to an application high school when the time comes.

We looked at our IB for PK/K and it was filled with kids who lived no where near our neighborhood and commuted there every day via the Metro. For us it was a city-wide charter over a city-wide DCPS, which is what our IB was at the time.

Without question we would have left DC if charters didn't exist.

I said "at this point" and then mentioned that the kids of the people for whom is it not a viable back up plan are in kindergarten or below. Your children being in middle schools puts you solidly in the camp of people for whom it wasn't a myth. There are not as many seats in charter schools as there were when you were entering the system, and your younger kids get sibling preference now anyway.

I'm talking about people who moved into those areas and had their first child in 2009/2010 or later and bought in those areas thinking that the neighborhood school would be fine at first and then there's charters. I know a lot of people that applies to, and many of them did not seem to consider what would happen if there were NOT charters.

I agree but there are also quite a few more charter schools than when we started out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing. I think that charters kept a lot of high SES families who did not want to or were not able to move to upper NW in the city when their children reached school age. The charters also provided a way for them to avoid the low SES people who live in their neighborhoods and other parts of the city who do send their kids to the neighborhood schools.

At this point, I think that for the high SES people who bought houses in Columbia Heights and Petworth and Brookland, the myth of charters-as-escape-hatch is what is keeping them in DC. They say, "We can play the lottery" and then they say "Our IB school is fine for PK or K, but then we'll see." For the families who are engaging in that kind of thinking, at least in my experience, their kids are kindergarten age. None of them (us, really - my kid is in K) have had to face the realities of the middle school situation. It is hard hearing from the hardened lifers about how they tried, failed, and moved to Arlington because we still think that maybe this time it'll work for us.

Will it? Or are we Charlie Brown with the football? My DD goes to our not-well-regarded IB school, where we are happy, but I'm still concerned for the future.

Thing is it isn't/wasn't a "myth" to our family. Ward 4 charter family - IB for Takoma and Coolidge high school.

Kids went to LAMB (starting in 2004 when it was new and unproven) and attend a charter middle and a charter high school. Younger may try to go to an application high school when the time comes.

We looked at our IB for PK/K and it was filled with kids who lived no where near our neighborhood and commuted there every day via the Metro. For us it was a city-wide charter over a city-wide DCPS, which is what our IB was at the time.

Without question we would have left DC if charters didn't exist.

I said "at this point" and then mentioned that the kids of the people for whom is it not a viable back up plan are in kindergarten or below. Your children being in middle schools puts you solidly in the camp of people for whom it wasn't a myth. There are not as many seats in charter schools as there were when you were entering the system, and your younger kids get sibling preference now anyway.

I'm talking about people who moved into those areas and had their first child in 2009/2010 or later and bought in those areas thinking that the neighborhood school would be fine at first and then there's charters. I know a lot of people that applies to, and many of them did not seem to consider what would happen if there were NOT charters.

I agree but there are also quite a few more charter schools than when we started out.

There are, but there are very limited spaces in those charters for non-siblings. How many non-siblings did LAMB admit last year? And how many on the waiting list?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think the two alternatives presented by the OP present a fair picture of what's going on.

I think it's more accurate to say (for our family) that charters are keeping us in DC AND they are holding back our DCPS.

The charters are also (1) adding to the variety of academic programs that are available to us; (2) creating an incentive for DCPS to do better; and (3) illustrating for DCPS what parents want. Considering all of the above, I think they are good for the system as a whole, even though they are holding back our in boundary DCPS elementary school.

on 2) -- the overall results are largely comparable between DCPS and charters. if charters are pushing DCPS to improve academically one would assume a larger differential on outcomes

hmm. I don't agree with that assumption. There only needs to be a perceived difference in quality to motivate parents to switch, and as a parent I don't think a statistic showing overall results would be very persuasive. I'm interested in what I think is best for my kids, and I thought the charter option was better than in boundary DCPS, so that's the decision I made. I think DCPS is definitely pushed to improved by the fact that so many (including myself) are voting with their feet and enrolling their kids in charters.

so evidence and data don't carry much weight. got it.

I think paretns care less about PARCC and more about diversity and FARMS rates.

Oh please -- I don't buy for a second that diversity is a real attraction for charters. There are ample compelling arguments for charters but that's pretty weak. Plenty of charters are as non-diverse as DCPS schools serving lower income communities, and some have comparable FARM rates. Those just aren't the "choices" you'd make

standardized scores absolutely matter in understanding achievement levels of cohorts. I may place less value in seeing schools reach a range of abilities rather than a substantial % remedial or worse, but many schools in both sectors have students well below the line academically. With a few exceptions the highest achieving charters are also the least the diverse (ie KIPP).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vote here!

Definitely the latter camp here. We go to a WOTP DCPS but live in ward 1. I'm pretty sure if all the high SES kids went to our IB school, we'd have a great walkable option.

The irony that you make this about charters, when you go to another school OOB.

Maybe say, get rid of the OOB lottery. Why should you get to go to a WOTP school when you don't live there?

+1. What a great example of hypocresy.

OP here and I agree we are hypocritices. But that still doesn't preclue us from wishing we could go to our neighborhood school, so let me clarify that I think both the OOB process and charters are harming some neighborhood schools that could really stand on their own if motivated/connected/afraid-of-poors families had no choice but to attend them.

Depriving people of choices is never a recipe for success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vote here!

Definitely the latter camp here. We go to a WOTP DCPS but live in ward 1. I'm pretty sure if all the high SES kids went to our IB school, we'd have a great walkable option.

The irony that you make this about charters, when you go to another school OOB.

Maybe say, get rid of the OOB lottery. Why should you get to go to a WOTP school when you don't live there?

+1. What a great example of hypocresy.

OP here and I agree we are hypocritices. But that still doesn't preclue us from wishing we could go to our neighborhood school, so let me clarify that I think both the OOB process and charters are harming some neighborhood schools that could really stand on their own if motivated/connected/afraid-of-poors families had no choice but to attend them.

Depriving people of choices is never a recipe for success.

Please quit with the BS "afraid of poors"--we have 50 years of research that shows the poverty/achievement gap is huge and real and almost always correlates for major behaviroal issues. Its a well known fact that schools with more than 30% FARMS hurt both high and low SES kids. Its not fear, its informed parents trying to do the right thing for their kid. I am amazed at the number of parents who are willing to sacrifice their kids well being, education etc just to make a point about public schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vote here!

Definitely the latter camp here. We go to a WOTP DCPS but live in ward 1. I'm pretty sure if all the high SES kids went to our IB school, we'd have a great walkable option.

The irony that you make this about charters, when you go to another school OOB.

Maybe say, get rid of the OOB lottery. Why should you get to go to a WOTP school when you don't live there?

+1. What a great example of hypocresy.

OP here and I agree we are hypocritices. But that still doesn't preclue us from wishing we could go to our neighborhood school, so let me clarify that I think both the OOB process and charters are harming some neighborhood schools that could really stand on their own if motivated/connected/afraid-of-poors families had no choice but to attend them.

Depriving people of choices is never a recipe for success.

+1. Especially when aimed at the people who obviously will always have other options, from going private to moving to the burbs.

Frankly, at this point I'd support giving all parents say under $100k HHI an annual voucher of $15k per kid for them to decide what school better serves their needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Charters keeping me in the city. We live EOTP, and even if every high SES person in our neighborhood went to our IB, it would still be a terrible school.

palabra

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vote here!

Definitely the latter camp here. We go to a WOTP DCPS but live in ward 1. I'm pretty sure if all the high SES kids went to our IB school, we'd have a great walkable option.

The irony that you make this about charters, when you go to another school OOB.

Maybe say, get rid of the OOB lottery. Why should you get to go to a WOTP school when you don't live there?

+1. What a great example of hypocresy.

OP here and I agree we are hypocritices. But that still doesn't preclue us from wishing we could go to our neighborhood school, so let me clarify that I think both the OOB process and charters are harming some neighborhood schools that could really stand on their own if motivated/connected/afraid-of-poors families had no choice but to attend them.

Depriving people of choices is never a recipe for success.

Please quit with the BS "afraid of poors"--we have 50 years of research that shows the poverty/achievement gap is huge and real and almost always correlates for major behaviroal issues. Its a well known fact that schools with more than 30% FARMS hurt both high and low SES kids. Its not fear, its informed parents trying to do the right thing for their kid. I am amazed at the number of parents who are willing to sacrifice their kids well being, education etc just to make a point about public schools.

+1. Always a surprise to meet someone with a brain here on DCUM

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Please quit with the BS "afraid of poors"--we have 50 years of research that shows the poverty/achievement gap is huge and real and almost always correlates for major behaviroal issues. Its a well known fact that schools with more than 30% FARMS hurt both high and low SES kids. Its not fear, its informed parents trying to do the right thing for their kid. I am amazed at the number of parents who are willing to sacrifice their kids well being, education etc just to make a point about public schools.

Your "well known fact" does not include an in-depth understanding of my kids specific school, which has well more than 30% FARMS. You sound like a typical armchair statistician with no idea what it really means. I'm aware of the research, and also that it's not a clear cut fact that revolves around some magic number.

On top of that, implying that people like me make choices "just to make a point about public schools" is insulting, but it says a lot more about your insecurities than my choices.



TL;DR - GFY, my kids will eat yours alive

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please quit with the BS "afraid of poors"--we have 50 years of research that shows the poverty/achievement gap is huge and real and almost always correlates for major behaviroal issues. Its a well known fact that schools with more than 30% FARMS hurt both high and low SES kids. Its not fear, its informed parents trying to do the right thing for their kid. I am amazed at the number of parents who are willing to sacrifice their kids well being, education etc just to make a point about public schools.

I send my child to our neighborhood school EOTP. Our official FARMs rate is 99%. Our actual FARMs rate is around 40%. I am not "sacrificing my kid['s] well being, education, etc. to make a point about education. I'm sending my child to school in the neighborhood where we live. My problem with the OOB people is that they're perfectly happy to live in the neighborhood and take advantage of the housing market in that neighborhood, but they're not willing to send their kids to the schools there. The "have my cake and eat it too" is bad enough, but when people then say that I'm sacrificing something for my kid (who is doing just fine) to make a point? No, it's called living in the neighborhood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please quit with the BS "afraid of poors"--we have 50 years of research that shows the poverty/achievement gap is huge and real and almost always correlates for major behaviroal issues. Its a well known fact that schools with more than 30% FARMS hurt both high and low SES kids. Its not fear, its informed parents trying to do the right thing for their kid. I am amazed at the number of parents who are willing to sacrifice their kids well being, education etc just to make a point about public schools.

but there many charters with FARM rates well above that threshold

[Anonymous]

I am inbounds for a top DCPS and send my kids to a top charter. Why? Because I want my kids to speak Spanish and understand their grandparents and culture. I don't begrudge the OOB person who takes our spot in our DCPS even though we paid a ton more to live inbounds for that good DCPS than my neighbors who are inbounds for a title 1 school did. I understand the frustration on both sides, but charters are here to stay so there is no point in arguing about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing. I think that charters kept a lot of high SES families who did not want to or were not able to move to upper NW in the city when their children reached school age. The charters also provided a way for them to avoid the low SES people who live in their neighborhoods and other parts of the city who do send their kids to the neighborhood schools.

At this point, I think that for the high SES people who bought houses in Columbia Heights and Petworth and Brookland, the myth of charters-as-escape-hatch is what is keeping them in DC. They say, "We can play the lottery" and then they say "Our IB school is fine for PK or K, but then we'll see." For the families who are engaging in that kind of thinking, at least in my experience, their kids are kindergarten age. None of them (us, really - my kid is in K) have had to face the realities of the middle school situation. It is hard hearing from the hardened lifers about how they tried, failed, and moved to Arlington because we still think that maybe this time it'll work for us.

Will it? Or are we Charlie Brown with the football? My DD goes to our not-well-regarded IB school, where we are happy, but I'm still concerned for the future.

Ask someone who lives on the Hill. The schools have been "improving" in the Cluster for 35+ years. Thank goodness for Latin & Basis & DCI to keep Hill families in DC...