Is it Fair to Say That Both Parties Are to Blame in the Demise of a Marriage?

[Anonymous]

Whoever cheats is the responsible party. Anything that happens after the affair is a result of the affair and thus, the cheater is responsible for the break up if the marriage not the wounded party.

[Anonymous]

I would say that the person who has the affair did something very wrong and probably pushed the relationship past recovery but that an affair is usually a symptom of a bigger problem. So, as with almost every question asked in this forum, additional context is needed on a case by case basis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That sounds like victim blaming to me. The person who had the affair created the problem. They get the blame.

What drove him/her to have an affair?

being a duplicitous douche-bag.

If you are unhappy in your marriage, get out, and then go sleep with other people. Cheaters always try to rationalize, but no-go. Cheating is not justifiable. Divorce is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This whole "the spouse made me cheat" line of thinking is so insane. No one makes you cheat. No one. If your marriage is falling apart, then your marriage is falling apart. It still doesn't mean you have been pushed into cheating.

Also, since we're on the topic, "She was wearing a short skirt and a tank top" also doesn't make you rape. And "hurling insults at me" doesn't make you slug someone.

There can be a million reasons that make you want to do something immoral, but stepping over the line and actually doing them is your choice and your responsibility alone.

Thank you! Agree totally. It is called being an adult and taking responsibility for your actions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[b]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thoughts? If one party has an affair and the other party is hurt and angry over it and the hurt and anger eventually cause the breakup? Now it is just as much to do with the hurt party?

I think yes.

There were reasons there was an affair, usually. I would think that most people wouldn't have an affair if their marriage was going well. If things are humming along and everybody is happy ... nobody has an affair. (usually)

It might not be apparent at first glance, but I think there usually is a reason that that space was there that allowed the affair. I am not blaming the spouse who was cheated on. The affair isn't their fault. But the state of the marriage before the affair is. Even if they thought things were PERFECT

It seems to me that a lot of cheated upon wives act all surprised, as if their marriages were perfect, delicious, amazing, before they found their husband cheating. They are so surprised and profess they were the perfect, loving, giving wife. Their marriage was roses and petunias.

Maybe.

But maybe not. I'm not saying they deserve to be cheated upon. But something in the marriage was really fundamentally wrong. Sex. Communication. Long held hurts. The affair really is just a symptom. A really really painful symptom. But a symptom.

The above is such an inaccurate stereotype about affairs.

My husband was began cheating on me the first year we met, even though he was at the same time romancing me, having hot sex with me, proposing to me, moving in with me, and encouraging me to have children with him. Even when I discovered his cheating, he begged me not to kick him out and not to terminate our relationship. I loved him and was shocked by his behavior. We engaged in counseling, but I only discovered that he continued to lie about his life throughout. The entire cycle lasted less than 5 years. What is a person supposed to do with this? The affairs weren't about me at all. The "space" in the marriage wasn't my creation and wasn't something I "allowed." They were part a reflection of illness (the hypomania of bipolar depression, undiagnosed at the time), dysfunctional family of origin issues (alcoholism, insecurity, anxiety, etc.) and character flaw (a willingness to lie to create a desired reality rather than negotiate openly with a partner).

As a cheated upon wife, I feel victimized twice -- once by my husband's behavior, and a second time by society which blames me for it and tells me that I should have accepted it (with the notion that I should swallow my hurt and anger and stay in the marriage).

It's like how society views the victim of a date rape -- everyone thinks you did something to deserve it or cause it, or that you "wanted it" on some level. Thankfully our views on date rape are changing, but, unfortunately, societal views about adultery have not yet changed.

Married people want to believe that adultery is the fault of both parties, because it reassures a married person that as long as they are doing "what it takes" (whatever the hell that is) to have a healthy marriage, adultery will never happen to them. Marriage is an incredibly risky proposition. You are making and emotional, physical and financial commitment to someone with whom there is really no guarantee that they will treat you fairly. People want to believe that that risk won't unpredictably blow up in their face.

Unfortunately, for many of us, adultery was like being hit by a bus while in the middle of a crosswalk while the walk light was green. Completely unpredictable, life-altering, years of recovery and not our fault at all.

I am sorry for your pain, and think what your ex did was wrong. But, you chose to marry someone who had already shown you he was a cheater. You made a bad choice, so ultimately, you do bear some responsibility for the demise of the marriage. He pulled the trigger, absolutely, but you handed him the gun.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thoughts? If one party has an affair and the other party is hurt and angry over it and the hurt and anger eventually cause the breakup? Now it is just as much to do with the hurt party?

I think yes.

There were reasons there was an affair, usually. I would think that most people wouldn't have an affair if their marriage was going well. If things are humming along and everybody is happy ... nobody has an affair. (usually)

It might not be apparent at first glance, but I think there usually is a reason that that space was there that allowed the affair. I am not blaming the spouse who was cheated on. The affair isn't their fault. But the state of the marriage before the affair is. Even if they thought things were PERFECT

It seems to me that a lot of cheated upon wives act all surprised, as if their marriages were perfect, delicious, amazing, before they found their husband cheating. They are so surprised and profess they were the perfect, loving, giving wife. Their marriage was roses and petunias.

Maybe.

But maybe not. I'm not saying they deserve to be cheated upon. But something in the marriage was really fundamentally wrong. Sex. Communication. Long held hurts. The affair really is just a symptom. A really really painful symptom. But a symptom.

The above is such an inaccurate stereotype about affairs.

My husband was began cheating on me the first year we met, even though he was at the same time romancing me, having hot sex with me, proposing to me, moving in with me, and encouraging me to have children with him. Even when I discovered his cheating, he begged me not to kick him out and not to terminate our relationship. I loved him and was shocked by his behavior. We engaged in counseling, but I only discovered that he continued to lie about his life throughout. The entire cycle lasted less than 5 years. What is a person supposed to do with this? The affairs weren't about me at all. The "space" in the marriage wasn't my creation and wasn't something I "allowed." They were part a reflection of illness (the hypomania of bipolar depression, undiagnosed at the time), dysfunctional family of origin issues (alcoholism, insecurity, anxiety, etc.) and character flaw (a willingness to lie to create a desired reality rather than negotiate openly with a partner).

As a cheated upon wife, I feel victimized twice -- once by my husband's behavior, and a second time by society which blames me for it and tells me that I should have accepted it (with the notion that I should swallow my hurt and anger and stay in the marriage).

It's like how society views the victim of a date rape -- everyone thinks you did something to deserve it or cause it, or that you "wanted it" on some level. Thankfully our views on date rape are changing, but, unfortunately, societal views about adultery have not yet changed.

Married people want to believe that adultery is the fault of both parties, because it reassures a married person that as long as they are doing "what it takes" (whatever the hell that is) to have a healthy marriage, adultery will never happen to them. Marriage is an incredibly risky proposition. You are making and emotional, physical and financial commitment to someone with whom there is really no guarantee that they will treat you fairly. People want to believe that that risk won't unpredictably blow up in their face.

Unfortunately, for many of us, adultery was like being hit by a bus while in the middle of a crosswalk while the walk light was green. Completely unpredictable, life-altering, years of recovery and not our fault at all.

PP - I think this sounds awful, and I do not believe people should accept and remain in a toxic relationship just because they said wedding vows. But as someone who divorced a BPD person (thank goodness no children), I disagree a little about the "blame" bit. It's not all one person's fault or the others. She was nutty and emotionally abusive and took a hell of a toll on me while I only tried to love her and make her happy. However, I knew that relationship wasn't right and I had my own "white knight" syndrome going on, and that is what drew me to her 'damsel in distress' routine. It takes two to tango. Yes, I was a victim, but I was a willing victim who volunteered for far too damn long because I didn't want to investigate my own unhealthy behaviors and contributions. Did you really never have any idea he had hypomanic behavior? No hints of Bipolar swings? I had to take a hard look at myself to see why I was drawn to such an abusive awful person, even when they clearly made me miserable. It takes two to tango.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[b]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thoughts? If one party has an affair and the other party is hurt and angry over it and the hurt and anger eventually cause the breakup? Now it is just as much to do with the hurt party?

I think yes.

There were reasons there was an affair, usually. I would think that most people wouldn't have an affair if their marriage was going well. If things are humming along and everybody is happy ... nobody has an affair. (usually)

It might not be apparent at first glance, but I think there usually is a reason that that space was there that allowed the affair. I am not blaming the spouse who was cheated on. The affair isn't their fault. But the state of the marriage before the affair is. Even if they thought things were PERFECT

It seems to me that a lot of cheated upon wives act all surprised, as if their marriages were perfect, delicious, amazing, before they found their husband cheating. They are so surprised and profess they were the perfect, loving, giving wife. Their marriage was roses and petunias.

Maybe.

But maybe not. I'm not saying they deserve to be cheated upon. But something in the marriage was really fundamentally wrong. Sex. Communication. Long held hurts. The affair really is just a symptom. A really really painful symptom. But a symptom.

The above is such an inaccurate stereotype about affairs.

My husband was began cheating on me the first year we met, even though he was at the same time romancing me, having hot sex with me, proposing to me, moving in with me, and encouraging me to have children with him. Even when I discovered his cheating, he begged me not to kick him out and not to terminate our relationship. I loved him and was shocked by his behavior. We engaged in counseling, but I only discovered that he continued to lie about his life throughout. The entire cycle lasted less than 5 years. What is a person supposed to do with this? The affairs weren't about me at all. The "space" in the marriage wasn't my creation and wasn't something I "allowed." They were part a reflection of illness (the hypomania of bipolar depression, undiagnosed at the time), dysfunctional family of origin issues (alcoholism, insecurity, anxiety, etc.) and character flaw (a willingness to lie to create a desired reality rather than negotiate openly with a partner).

As a cheated upon wife, I feel victimized twice -- once by my husband's behavior, and a second time by society which blames me for it and tells me that I should have accepted it (with the notion that I should swallow my hurt and anger and stay in the marriage).

It's like how society views the victim of a date rape -- everyone thinks you did something to deserve it or cause it, or that you "wanted it" on some level. Thankfully our views on date rape are changing, but, unfortunately, societal views about adultery have not yet changed.

Married people want to believe that adultery is the fault of both parties, because it reassures a married person that as long as they are doing "what it takes" (whatever the hell that is) to have a healthy marriage, adultery will never happen to them. Marriage is an incredibly risky proposition. You are making and emotional, physical and financial commitment to someone with whom there is really no guarantee that they will treat you fairly. People want to believe that that risk won't unpredictably blow up in their face.

Unfortunately, for many of us, adultery was like being hit by a bus while in the middle of a crosswalk while the walk light was green. Completely unpredictable, life-altering, years of recovery and not our fault at all.

I am sorry for your pain, and think what your ex did was wrong. But, you chose to marry someone who had already shown you he was a cheater. You made a bad choice, so ultimately, you do bear some responsibility for the demise of the marriage. He pulled the trigger, absolutely, but you handed him the gun.

I think you missed that she did not know all of this until she went to counseling with him 5 years into the whole thing. He lied to her the whole time, she found all this out in hindsight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That sounds like victim blaming to me. The person who had the affair created the problem. They get the blame.

What drove him/her to have an affair?

being a duplicitous douche-bag.

If you are unhappy in your marriage, get out, and then go sleep with other people. Cheaters always try to rationalize, but no-go. Cheating is not justifiable. Divorce is.

This. Nothing in a marriage causes someone to cheat or excuses the cheating--divorce yes, cheat no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Both parties are to blame, but in my mind, not exactly for the reasons everyone else has listed.

It takes two to run a marriage. Yes, there are cheaters who just do it for the thrill. That being said, there are also the inside partners who freeze out a marriage, which to me is just as bad as cheating, for their own reasons/ ends.

I'm not here to pass judgement, or pick sides, or any of it. I wasn't in the relationship or did I see what went on behind closed doors. I know plenty of "victims" who have chosen that path, thinking it will gain them maximum hand in the end.

If you end a marriage because your partner cheated, then you are not a victim. You escaped a bullet. But you don't get extra pats on the head for doing what is best for you. That's your choice. I've had friends leave, some stay. These are life choices that affect no ones other than you. And there's no extra bones for the victim in that situation, regardless of outcome.

Now, I don't think this way in terms of abuse. That's the one place where sides are fair, warranted, and preferential.

Adultery is abuse. Weird that you would think otherwise...

And I think it is weird and disturbing that you equate the two.

I don't think you understand affairs if you don't understand all the other things that go on to enable an affair. Read 15:04's story there was so much lying, deceit, double life, manipulation, gas lighting, etc that went on to make the affair possible.

That is clearly the definition of abuse.

It's not a competition of suffering. There is, however, a big difference between a spouse who secretly sleeps with his personal trainer and a spouse who secretly beats his wife. The story 15:04 tells is terrible, but it is still a different than the story from a while back of the woman whose spouse hit her in front of her kids who felt that she couldn't leave because she was trapped without options.

It's not the same. Both are bad. They are not the same bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thoughts? If one party has an affair and the other party is hurt and angry over it and the hurt and anger eventually cause the breakup? Now it is just as much to do with the hurt party?

I think yes.

There were reasons there was an affair, usually. I would think that most people wouldn't have an affair if their marriage was going well. If things are humming along and everybody is happy ... nobody has an affair. (usually)

It might not be apparent at first glance, but I think there usually is a reason that that space was there that allowed the affair. I am not blaming the spouse who was cheated on. The affair isn't their fault. But the state of the marriage before the affair is. Even if they thought things were PERFECT

It seems to me that a lot of cheated upon wives act all surprised, as if their marriages were perfect, delicious, amazing, before they found their husband cheating. They are so surprised and profess they were the perfect, loving, giving wife. Their marriage was roses and petunias.

Maybe.

But maybe not. I'm not saying they deserve to be cheated upon. But something in the marriage was really fundamentally wrong. Sex. Communication. Long held hurts. The affair really is just a symptom. A really really painful symptom. But a symptom.

The above is such an inaccurate stereotype about affairs.

My husband was began cheating on me the first year we met, even though he was at the same time romancing me, having hot sex with me, proposing to me, moving in with me, and encouraging me to have children with him. Even when I discovered his cheating, he begged me not to kick him out and not to terminate our relationship. I loved him and was shocked by his behavior. We engaged in counseling, but I only discovered that he continued to lie about his life throughout. The entire cycle lasted less than 5 years. What is a person supposed to do with this? The affairs weren't about me at all. The "space" in the marriage wasn't my creation and wasn't something I "allowed." They were part a reflection of illness (the hypomania of bipolar depression, undiagnosed at the time), dysfunctional family of origin issues (alcoholism, insecurity, anxiety, etc.) and character flaw (a willingness to lie to create a desired reality rather than negotiate openly with a partner).

As a cheated upon wife, I feel victimized twice -- once by my husband's behavior, and a second time by society which blames me for it and tells me that I should have accepted it (with the notion that I should swallow my hurt and anger and stay in the marriage).

It's like how society views the victim of a date rape -- everyone thinks you did something to deserve it or cause it, or that you "wanted it" on some level. Thankfully our views on date rape are changing, but, unfortunately, societal views about adultery have not yet changed.

Married people want to believe that adultery is the fault of both parties, because it reassures a married person that as long as they are doing "what it takes" (whatever the hell that is) to have a healthy marriage, adultery will never happen to them. Marriage is an incredibly risky proposition. You are making and emotional, physical and financial commitment to someone with whom there is really no guarantee that they will treat you fairly. People want to believe that that risk won't unpredictably blow up in their face.

Unfortunately, for many of us, adultery was like being hit by a bus while in the middle of a crosswalk while the walk light was green. Completely unpredictable, life-altering, years of recovery and not our fault at all.

PP - I think this sounds awful, and I do not believe people should accept and remain in a toxic relationship just because they said wedding vows. But as someone who divorced a BPD person (thank goodness no children), I disagree a little about the "blame" bit. It's not all one person's fault or the others. She was nutty and emotionally abusive and took a hell of a toll on me while I only tried to love her and make her happy. However, I knew that relationship wasn't right and I had my own "white knight" syndrome going on, and that is what drew me to her 'damsel in distress' routine. It takes two to tango. Yes, I was a victim, but I was a willing victim who volunteered for far too damn long because I didn't want to investigate my own unhealthy behaviors and contributions. Did you really never have any idea he had hypomanic behavior? No hints of Bipolar swings? I had to take a hard look at myself to see why I was drawn to such an abusive awful person, even when they clearly made me miserable. It takes two to tango.

Very well put PP. Depending on the context, the idea of "blame" may not be very useful. The first task of a couples therapist is to get the couple to stop fighting over who gets to claim being the injured party who can then blame the other. Only then can a discussion begin about where each party is in life and in the marriage, and whether they're willing/able to do what work it would take to get the marriage back on track. Of course the decision may be a yes or a no, and there can be good reason for a "no."

The "white knight" role can provide good cover for one's own issues, and can do a lot of damage under the guise of helping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's my take:

the cheater cheats for whatever reason. Maybe the non cheating spouse was a lousy spouse. That gives the cheater the right to leave that spouse but not the right to deceive by cheating. Still blame the cheater here.

The non cheating spouse doesn't do well being magnanimous, forgiving, taking the hurt gracefully, accepting that they were a lousy spouse to begin with, but instead responds with hurt and anger, and doesn't get over it in the time frame that's convenient for the cheater. The non cheating spouse stays mad/hurt/angry longer than the cheater deems appropriate.

I'd say the cheater lacks a lot of empathy to put a time table on recovering from being deceived and restoring trust. Even when things get back to being on track, the cheater should be aware that there will still be eruptions. And when I say back on track, I mean that non cheating spouse recognizes their part in the dynamic. Still, lack of empathy in length of recovery : still mostly on the cheater. Until that empathy can be demonstrated, I don't think the non cheating spouse can begin to be in a place where they can let go of defensive hurt to look at adjustments they may need to make.

Bottom line: if cheating spouse wants to make it work, cheating spouse needs to approach non cheating spouse with lots and lots of humbleness for a long while (not up to cheating spouse for how long) before cheating spouse gets to ask for concessions from non cheating spouse. No one made cheating spouse cheat. Cheating spouse had opportunity to negotiate those concessions BEFORE cheating. Still blame cheating spouse.

If cheating spouse wants a time table of recovery and can't offer lots and lots of patience, cheating spouse should cut losses and let everyone move on. Inability to see that - cheating spouse didn't have empathy, patience, or humbleness to walk the path of recovery - still blame the cheater for not acknowledging that recovery is very very difficult and takes massive commitment upfront before lousy spouse can take steps to become better spouse.

Cheating takes a broken marriage, that would have taken work to repair regardless of the complication of cheating, and detonates an atomic bomb in the scene.

Yep, mostly the fault of the cheater in the final demise.

This times a million. My husband has cheated and is denying. I'm figuring out my next step and really trying to give him all the chances in the world to make it right mostly for our children's sake. I do think our marriage had major issues pre cheating however I think it was his faulty coping mechanisms that drove him to cheat rather than confront our/his issues. This is the part that terrifies me- I think a person that can cheat and lie has something flawed within them- which only, maybe can be credited with lots of introspection and therapy. He needs to learn to empathize more. I don't think someone could cheat if they has the ability to be empathetic.

[Anonymous]

Corrected. Not credited

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: This is the part that terrifies me- I think a person that can cheat and lie has something flawed within them- which only, maybe can be credited with lots of introspection and therapy. He needs to learn to empathize more. I don't think someone could cheat if they has the ability to be empathetic.

Since -- what, 25-50% of spouses cheat at least once during their lifespan? -- that a vast majority of people must be "broken" or flawed. Have you never lied? or cheated in any way (not necessarily on your spouse. On a gf/bf? on a test? on your resume?)

We all make bad decisions. We all make unhealthy decisions (third slice of pie, anyone? did you skip the gym AGAIN this morning?). Cheating is among the biggest and baddest of the bad decisions. But it isn't uncommon, which makes me think it is normal. Cheaters aren't flawed. They are normal. We are all -- at our very core -- selfish. That doesn't mean I approve of cheating, but I understand it.

I do agree with with your comment that cheaters probably don't have the ability to empathize. At least with their spouse at that current time.

[Anonymous]

If I skip the gym or have a third slice of pie, yes that's unhealthy and my decision. But it is not hurting anyone aside from myself. I never made a lifelong vow to not eat pie or to go to the gym everyday. It doesn't destroy someone's life. So yes- I think if you are able to fuck someone else and then come home to your wife and kids to eat dinner and pretend like nothing happened you have some part of you that is broken.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Both parties are to blame, but in my mind, not exactly for the reasons everyone else has listed.

It takes two to run a marriage. Yes, there are cheaters who just do it for the thrill. That being said, there are also the inside partners who freeze out a marriage, which to me is just as bad as cheating, for their own reasons/ ends.

I'm not here to pass judgement, or pick sides, or any of it. I wasn't in the relationship or did I see what went on behind closed doors. I know plenty of "victims" who have chosen that path, thinking it will gain them maximum hand in the end.

If you end a marriage because your partner cheated, then you are not a victim. You escaped a bullet. But you don't get extra pats on the head for doing what is best for you. That's your choice. I've had friends leave, some stay. These are life choices that affect no ones other than you. And there's no extra bones for the victim in that situation, regardless of outcome.

Now, I don't think this way in terms of abuse. That's the one place where sides are fair, warranted, and preferential.

Adultery is abuse. Weird that you would think otherwise...

And I think it is weird and disturbing that you equate the two.

I don't think you understand affairs if you don't understand all the other things that go on to enable an affair. Read 15:04's story there was so much lying, deceit, double life, manipulation, gas lighting, etc that went on to make the affair possible.

That is clearly the definition of abuse.

It's not a competition of suffering. There is, however, a big difference between a spouse who secretly sleeps with his personal trainer and a spouse who secretly beats his wife. The story 15:04 tells is terrible, but it is still a different than the story from a while back of the woman whose spouse hit her in front of her kids who felt that she couldn't leave because she was trapped without options.

It's not the same. Both are bad. They are not the same bad.

Like YOU said .. it is NOT a competition of suffering. They are both bad, they are both abuse. You really don't understand gaslighting and the toll it takes.