Parents of middle school girls, please...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Honest question... could you please help me understand why those kinds of clothes are a problem? Thanks!

I get that certain places have rules, and while I disagree in some ways with most dress codes I can acknowledge that I think they should almost always be followed, but I don't actually understand why any sort of clothing is specifically bad.

I guess I'm rather clueless, or at least not mainstream in my views.

This is my understanding of why it's an issue. There are areas of the body that we consider private, personal. For boys and girls, the genitals and the buttocks, and for girls the chest. Adults expose or accentuate these areas when trying to attract other adults. They will wear revealing, close cut clothing. If a child wears clothing that mimics that sexual enhancement, we read it as "wrong" because we're reading it as a child doing something to sexually enhance themselves. Those of us who don't see this as a particular issue understand that a young child wearing a triangle-cut bikini is not sexually enhancing herself because there is nothing to sexually enhance - she is a child. Those who view it as a girl's/woman's responsibility to cater to the male gaze see the girl as doing something wrong because she's trying to sexually enhance herself.

Short shorts can make other people uncomfortable because they can reveal areas that we consider sexually important. The emphasis is placed on the girl to not make others feel uncomfortable, so that adults don't have to consider why they're viewing 11-13 year old children as sexual objects.

Bingo! Here's the interesting thing. The girls know about sex at this age and they want to look like the sexy TV stars and fashion models, but they don't want to attract glances from creepy old men. I just explained my objection to one of my daughter's clothing option in this way. "You're developing to look like a woman. If you wear things like this that show off your womanly parts, some men will look at you in a sexual way." She was flabbergasted and grossed out. She then defended her right to wear a bikini at our summer pool (where there are no creepy old men she thinks) and we discussed how that might be a better choice than at the beach under the glaring eyes of lots of strangers. We're still navigating how we set appropriate standards for my 12 year old, but I think this sort of open conversation about why certain things make me as her parent (and particularly her dad) uncomfortable are important for her to understand. Trying to educate her rather than just forbid tons of stuff. And NO her but cheeks don't hang out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When the shorts available at stores are the short shorts, it's what the people buying them are going to wear. Perhaps you could petition clothing designers to make shorts with longer inseams. While you're at it, please alert clothing designers that girls and women would like to be able to purchase clothing that includes pockets.

In the meantime, my daughter will do her best to buy clothes that she finds comfortable and flattering. If they don't meet your standards, take it up with the clothing designers and the adults who are setting the examples our children are following.

Seriously??? You are blaming the clothing line manufacturers for your daughter wearing shorts that show her ass? What a lame cop out. Just say "I have no control over what my daughter buys or wears, nor do I care."

My daughter wears skater fashions, her ass doesn't show. She is a fringe kid, the majority of her friends do not wear skater fashions. And I just lucked out on this, my kid happened to latch onto a fashion that's modest, even if it's not pretty. She won't get dinged for showing her ass, she'll get dinged for dressing too messy/casual.

I completely understand why her friends wear short shorts. It's because it's what's at the store. It's what they see the stylish people they want to emulate wearing. They are what is to be found in stores. If adults do not want middle schoolers wearing revealing clothes, then don't design revealing clothes for middle schoolers, do not wear revealing clothes as the height of fashion, do not stock revealing clothes in stores. There are many many steps before we reach the "middle schooler picks out a pair of short shorts to purchase." Police those steps.

Shall we discuss how even in children's clothes - clothes designed for 4 and 5 year olds - the girls versions are cut to be much more body hugging and revealing than the boys versions? Shall we discuss how we reach the point where our 12 year olds think body hugging leggings are appropriate and fashionable coverage? Middle schoolers do not wake up one day and decide they like clothing with miniscule inseams and cleavage enhancing bras. They are trained into this from day one. How about we start there, where the problem lies - with the adults - rather than trying to shame middle schoolers who are doing their best to find clothing that is fashionable and attractive.

Again, be the parent. Don't allow your middle schooler to shop in adult clothing stores. Have them walk out of a dressing room and say "no way, I won't buy that for you." There are plenty of stores that have normal and modest clothing for this age. Shorts that show your ass is not the only option. You literally sound like a teen trying to rationalize with their mom why they should dress this way.

I'm poster 10:30, not the one to whom you were responding, but... why is it your business to tell me to parent in a specific way? Why would I do as you have suggested? It's utterly contrary to my parenting philosophy.

I am a parent. I guide and teach and help and love my child... but what I don't do, because I don't think it's my place just because I'm her parent, is decide what anyone older than toddler years wears, in most cases. Our main house rule is not to harm anyone, so clothing with hurtful messages like slurs is not ok, but other than that I am not the one with control over my child's body (except for possibly in the case of significant medical decisions). I believe every person has the right to that much personal autonomy at least.

I also don't believe in such a thing as "adult" clothing stores for non-lingerie items... and you seem to be talking about regular clothing not undergarments or things meant to be worn in the bedroom. My child has a clothing budget based on what will work for our family, and she chooses where to shop.

I don't find any of her clothing choices objectionable, because I'm not sure why some clothing is supposed to be "bad". I just don't believe in that. Sorry. No one will force your child to wear something you object to, but neither do you get to impose your standards, to which DD and I strongly object, on my DD without her consent. No one has the right to force their standards for behavior on anyone else, unless the standard is to prevent harm or to do with something directly impacting the imposer's rights... with the exception being the duly appointed authority that actually makes the rules for a specific location or event. The school administration has the right to handle dress code violations, and if DD violates school rules she and I will deal with that, but that still is not specifically your business.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Bingo! Here's the interesting thing. The girls know about sex at this age and they want to look like the sexy TV stars and fashion models, but they don't want to attract glances from creepy old men. I just explained my objection to one of my daughter's clothing option in this way. "You're developing to look like a woman. If you wear things like this that show off your womanly parts, some men will look at you in a sexual way." She was flabbergasted and grossed out. She then defended her right to wear a bikini at our summer pool (where there are no creepy old men she thinks) and we discussed how that might be a better choice than at the beach under the glaring eyes of lots of strangers. We're still navigating how we set appropriate standards for my 12 year old, but I think this sort of open conversation about why certain things make me as her parent (and particularly her dad) uncomfortable are important for her to understand. Trying to educate her rather than just forbid tons of stuff. And NO her but cheeks don't hang out.

The problem with this is that some men will look at her in a sexual way regardless of what she wears.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/teenage-girl-blossoming-into-beautiful-object,31061/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When the shorts available at stores are the short shorts, it's what the people buying them are going to wear. Perhaps you could petition clothing designers to make shorts with longer inseams. While you're at it, please alert clothing designers that girls and women would like to be able to purchase clothing that includes pockets.

In the meantime, my daughter will do her best to buy clothes that she finds comfortable and flattering. If they don't meet your standards, take it up with the clothing designers and the adults who are setting the examples our children are following.

Seriously??? You are blaming the clothing line manufacturers for your daughter wearing shorts that show her ass? What a lame cop out. Just say "I have no control over what my daughter buys or wears, nor do I care."

My daughter wears skater fashions, her ass doesn't show. She is a fringe kid, the majority of her friends do not wear skater fashions. And I just lucked out on this, my kid happened to latch onto a fashion that's modest, even if it's not pretty. She won't get dinged for showing her ass, she'll get dinged for dressing too messy/casual.

I completely understand why her friends wear short shorts. It's because it's what's at the store. It's what they see the stylish people they want to emulate wearing. They are what is to be found in stores. If adults do not want middle schoolers wearing revealing clothes, then don't design revealing clothes for middle schoolers, do not wear revealing clothes as the height of fashion, do not stock revealing clothes in stores. There are many many steps before we reach the "middle schooler picks out a pair of short shorts to purchase." Police those steps.

Shall we discuss how even in children's clothes - clothes designed for 4 and 5 year olds - the girls versions are cut to be much more body hugging and revealing than the boys versions? Shall we discuss how we reach the point where our 12 year olds think body hugging leggings are appropriate and fashionable coverage? Middle schoolers do not wake up one day and decide they like clothing with miniscule inseams and cleavage enhancing bras. They are trained into this from day one. How about we start there, where the problem lies - with the adults - rather than trying to shame middle schoolers who are doing their best to find clothing that is fashionable and attractive.

Again, be the parent. Don't allow your middle schooler to shop in adult clothing stores. Have them walk out of a dressing room and say "no way, I won't buy that for you." There are plenty of stores that have normal and modest clothing for this age. Shorts that show your ass is not the only option. You literally sound like a teen trying to rationalize with their mom why they should dress this way.

I'm poster 10:30, not the one to whom you were responding, but... why is it your business to tell me to parent in a specific way? Why would I do as you have suggested? It's utterly contrary to my parenting philosophy.

I am a parent. I guide and teach and help and love my child... but what I don't do, because I don't think it's my place just because I'm her parent, is decide what anyone older than toddler years wears, in most cases. Our main house rule is not to harm anyone, so clothing with hurtful messages like slurs is not ok, but other than that I am not the one with control over my child's body (except for possibly in the case of significant medical decisions). I believe every person has the right to that much personal autonomy at least.

I also don't believe in such a thing as "adult" clothing stores for non-lingerie items... and you seem to be talking about regular clothing not undergarments or things meant to be worn in the bedroom. My child has a clothing budget based on what will work for our family, and she chooses where to shop.

I don't find any of her clothing choices objectionable, because I'm not sure why some clothing is supposed to be "bad". I just don't believe in that. Sorry. No one will force your child to wear something you object to, but neither do you get to impose your standards, to which DD and I strongly object, on my DD without her consent. No one has the right to force their standards for behavior on anyone else, unless the standard is to prevent harm or to do with something directly impacting the imposer's rights... with the exception being the duly appointed authority that actually makes the rules for a specific location or event. The school administration has the right to handle dress code violations, and if DD violates school rules she and I will deal with that, but that still is not specifically your business.

So you're agreeing that if the school policy states "do not reveal private body parts at school," and admin says "please don't show your rear end in school," and DD continues to do so and is pulled from class because of it and yada yada yada, you'll then encourage her not to show her bum at school? If you know this is the expectation to begin with, why not proactively have the conversation if you have cause to believe DD might need the conversation eventually?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Honest question... could you please help me understand why those kinds of clothes are a problem? Thanks!

I get that certain places have rules, and while I disagree in some ways with most dress codes I can acknowledge that I think they should almost always be followed, but I don't actually understand why any sort of clothing is specifically bad.

I guess I'm rather clueless, or at least not mainstream in my views.

This is my understanding of why it's an issue. There are areas of the body that we consider private, personal. For boys and girls, the genitals and the buttocks, and for girls the chest. Adults expose or accentuate these areas when trying to attract other adults. They will wear revealing, close cut clothing. If a child wears clothing that mimics that sexual enhancement, we read it as "wrong" because we're reading it as a child doing something to sexually enhance themselves. Those of us who don't see this as a particular issue understand that a young child wearing a triangle-cut bikini is not sexually enhancing herself because there is nothing to sexually enhance - she is a child. Those who view it as a girl's/woman's responsibility to cater to the male gaze see the girl as doing something wrong because she's trying to sexually enhance herself.

Short shorts can make other people uncomfortable because they can reveal areas that we consider sexually important. The emphasis is placed on the girl to not make others feel uncomfortable, so that adults don't have to consider why they're viewing 11-13 year old children as sexual objects.

Bingo! Here's the interesting thing. The girls know about sex at this age and they want to look like the sexy TV stars and fashion models, but they don't want to attract glances from creepy old men. I just explained my objection to one of my daughter's clothing option in this way. "You're developing to look like a woman. If you wear things like this that show off your womanly parts, some men will look at you in a sexual way." She was flabbergasted and grossed out. She then defended her right to wear a bikini at our summer pool (where there are no creepy old men she thinks) and we discussed how that might be a better choice than at the beach under the glaring eyes of lots of strangers. We're still navigating how we set appropriate standards for my 12 year old, but I think this sort of open conversation about why certain things make me as her parent (and particularly her dad) uncomfortable are important for her to understand. Trying to educate her rather than just forbid tons of stuff. And NO her but cheeks don't hang out.

OK, but... there's another side to that. If SHE is uncomfortable by the fact that some people will possibly think of her based on her outfit, then it's totally legitimate for her to choose to avoid that. But, I hope that was your message, and not that she HAS TO care what anyone else thinks of however she dresses. That was my approach with my DD and the only one I personally think makes sense.

If she's comfortable in what she's wearing, great.

If someone else thinks a thing, thoughts are fine as long as their actions are appropriate (UNLESS DD has decided she doesn't want to be thought of that way, in which case altering her clothing choices may be the only option because no one can change another's thoughts).

She still has the absolute right to wear whatever she chooses and NOT have anyone act inappropriate with her. That's totally on the agent of the potential action, not anyone's DD the recipient.

To me, that message, "what people think doesn't need to be relevant to you unless it impacts your comfort; the important thing is that YOU like how you have chosen to dress" is usually the most important message to send about clothing, because the basic theme is applicable to so many other important topics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Honest question... could you please help me understand why those kinds of clothes are a problem? Thanks!

I get that certain places have rules, and while I disagree in some ways with most dress codes I can acknowledge that I think they should almost always be followed, but I don't actually understand why any sort of clothing is specifically bad.

I guess I'm rather clueless, or at least not mainstream in my views.

This is my understanding of why it's an issue. There are areas of the body that we consider private, personal. For boys and girls, the genitals and the buttocks, and for girls the chest. Adults expose or accentuate these areas when trying to attract other adults. They will wear revealing, close cut clothing. If a child wears clothing that mimics that sexual enhancement, we read it as "wrong" because we're reading it as a child doing something to sexually enhance themselves. Those of us who don't see this as a particular issue understand that a young child wearing a triangle-cut bikini is not sexually enhancing herself because there is nothing to sexually enhance - she is a child. Those who view it as a girl's/woman's responsibility to cater to the male gaze see the girl as doing something wrong because she's trying to sexually enhance herself.

Short shorts can make other people uncomfortable because they can reveal areas that we consider sexually important. The emphasis is placed on the girl to not make others feel uncomfortable, so that adults don't have to consider why they're viewing 11-13 year old children as sexual objects.

Bingo! Here's the interesting thing. The girls know about sex at this age and they want to look like the sexy TV stars and fashion models, but they don't want to attract glances from creepy old men. I just explained my objection to one of my daughter's clothing option in this way. "You're developing to look like a woman. If you wear things like this that show off your womanly parts, some men will look at you in a sexual way." She was flabbergasted and grossed out. She then defended her right to wear a bikini at our summer pool (where there are no creepy old men she thinks) and we discussed how that might be a better choice than at the beach under the glaring eyes of lots of strangers. We're still navigating how we set appropriate standards for my 12 year old, but I think this sort of open conversation about why certain things make me as her parent (and particularly her dad) uncomfortable are important for her to understand. Trying to educate her rather than just forbid tons of stuff. And NO her but cheeks don't hang out.

This. This, this, this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

So you're agreeing that if the school policy states "do not reveal private body parts at school," and admin says "please don't show your rear end in school," and DD continues to do so and is pulled from class because of it and yada yada yada, you'll then encourage her not to show her bum at school? If you know this is the expectation to begin with, why not proactively have the conversation if you have cause to believe DD might need the conversation eventually?

I'm not the PP, but as far as I can tell, the PP's point was that the PP's daughter's clothing choices are

1. her business
2. the school's business, as far as her clothing choices violate the school dress code
3. not your business

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Honest question... could you please help me understand why those kinds of clothes are a problem? Thanks!

I get that certain places have rules, and while I disagree in some ways with most dress codes I can acknowledge that I think they should almost always be followed, but I don't actually understand why any sort of clothing is specifically bad.

I guess I'm rather clueless, or at least not mainstream in my views.

This is my understanding of why it's an issue. There are areas of the body that we consider private, personal. For boys and girls, the genitals and the buttocks, and for girls the chest. Adults expose or accentuate these areas when trying to attract other adults. They will wear revealing, close cut clothing. If a child wears clothing that mimics that sexual enhancement, we read it as "wrong" because we're reading it as a child doing something to sexually enhance themselves. Those of us who don't see this as a particular issue understand that a young child wearing a triangle-cut bikini is not sexually enhancing herself because there is nothing to sexually enhance - she is a child. Those who view it as a girl's/woman's responsibility to cater to the male gaze see the girl as doing something wrong because she's trying to sexually enhance herself.

Short shorts can make other people uncomfortable because they can reveal areas that we consider sexually important. The emphasis is placed on the girl to not make others feel uncomfortable, so that adults don't have to consider why they're viewing 11-13 year old children as sexual objects.

Bingo! Here's the interesting thing. The girls know about sex at this age and they want to look like the sexy TV stars and fashion models, but they don't want to attract glances from creepy old men. I just explained my objection to one of my daughter's clothing option in this way. "You're developing to look like a woman. If you wear things like this that show off your womanly parts, some men will look at you in a sexual way." She was flabbergasted and grossed out. She then defended her right to wear a bikini at our summer pool (where there are no creepy old men she thinks) and we discussed how that might be a better choice than at the beach under the glaring eyes of lots of strangers. We're still navigating how we set appropriate standards for my 12 year old, but I think this sort of open conversation about why certain things make me as her parent (and particularly her dad) uncomfortable are important for her to understand. Trying to educate her rather than just forbid tons of stuff. And NO her but cheeks don't hang out.

OK, but... there's another side to that. If SHE is uncomfortable by the fact that some people will possibly think of her based on her outfit, then it's totally legitimate for her to choose to avoid that. But, I hope that was your message, and not that she HAS TO care what anyone else thinks of however she dresses. That was my approach with my DD and the only one I personally think makes sense.

If she's comfortable in what she's wearing, great.

If someone else thinks a thing, thoughts are fine as long as their actions are appropriate (UNLESS DD has decided she doesn't want to be thought of that way, in which case altering her clothing choices may be the only option because no one can change another's thoughts).

She still has the absolute right to wear whatever she chooses and NOT have anyone act inappropriate with her. That's totally on the agent of the potential action, not anyone's DD the recipient.

To me, that message, "what people think doesn't need to be relevant to you unless it impacts your comfort; the important thing is that YOU like how you have chosen to dress" is usually the most important message to send about clothing, because the basic theme is applicable to so many other important topics.

I like this. I work in education, and too often, I have girls complaining to me that what people said about their outfits upset them. It's a tough line -- I don't think anyone has the right to make another person feel badly about themselves based on their choices or beliefs (which so often seems to be the case on here!), but at the same time, when what they're wearing overtly goes against the accepted social norms, it's not surprising that 12 and 13 year olds will be critical. Maybe we need to educate all people in how to be nicer to each other ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When the shorts available at stores are the short shorts, it's what the people buying them are going to wear. Perhaps you could petition clothing designers to make shorts with longer inseams. While you're at it, please alert clothing designers that girls and women would like to be able to purchase clothing that includes pockets.

In the meantime, my daughter will do her best to buy clothes that she finds comfortable and flattering. If they don't meet your standards, take it up with the clothing designers and the adults who are setting the examples our children are following.

Seriously??? You are blaming the clothing line manufacturers for your daughter wearing shorts that show her ass? What a lame cop out. Just say "I have no control over what my daughter buys or wears, nor do I care."

My daughter wears skater fashions, her ass doesn't show. She is a fringe kid, the majority of her friends do not wear skater fashions. And I just lucked out on this, my kid happened to latch onto a fashion that's modest, even if it's not pretty. She won't get dinged for showing her ass, she'll get dinged for dressing too messy/casual.

I completely understand why her friends wear short shorts. It's because it's what's at the store. It's what they see the stylish people they want to emulate wearing. They are what is to be found in stores. If adults do not want middle schoolers wearing revealing clothes, then don't design revealing clothes for middle schoolers, do not wear revealing clothes as the height of fashion, do not stock revealing clothes in stores. There are many many steps before we reach the "middle schooler picks out a pair of short shorts to purchase." Police those steps.

Shall we discuss how even in children's clothes - clothes designed for 4 and 5 year olds - the girls versions are cut to be much more body hugging and revealing than the boys versions? Shall we discuss how we reach the point where our 12 year olds think body hugging leggings are appropriate and fashionable coverage? Middle schoolers do not wake up one day and decide they like clothing with miniscule inseams and cleavage enhancing bras. They are trained into this from day one. How about we start there, where the problem lies - with the adults - rather than trying to shame middle schoolers who are doing their best to find clothing that is fashionable and attractive.

Again, be the parent. Don't allow your middle schooler to shop in adult clothing stores. Have them walk out of a dressing room and say "no way, I won't buy that for you." There are plenty of stores that have normal and modest clothing for this age. Shorts that show your ass is not the only option. You literally sound like a teen trying to rationalize with their mom why they should dress this way.

I'm poster 10:30, not the one to whom you were responding, but... why is it your business to tell me to parent in a specific way? Why would I do as you have suggested? It's utterly contrary to my parenting philosophy.

I am a parent. I guide and teach and help and love my child... but what I don't do, because I don't think it's my place just because I'm her parent, is decide what anyone older than toddler years wears, in most cases. Our main house rule is not to harm anyone, so clothing with hurtful messages like slurs is not ok, but other than that I am not the one with control over my child's body (except for possibly in the case of significant medical decisions). I believe every person has the right to that much personal autonomy at least.

I also don't believe in such a thing as "adult" clothing stores for non-lingerie items... and you seem to be talking about regular clothing not undergarments or things meant to be worn in the bedroom. My child has a clothing budget based on what will work for our family, and she chooses where to shop.

I don't find any of her clothing choices objectionable, because I'm not sure why some clothing is supposed to be "bad". I just don't believe in that. Sorry. No one will force your child to wear something you object to, but neither do you get to impose your standards, to which DD and I strongly object, on my DD without her consent. No one has the right to force their standards for behavior on anyone else, unless the standard is to prevent harm or to do with something directly impacting the imposer's rights... with the exception being the duly appointed authority that actually makes the rules for a specific location or event. The school administration has the right to handle dress code violations, and if DD violates school rules she and I will deal with that, but that still is not specifically your business.

So you're agreeing that if the school policy states "do not reveal private body parts at school," and admin says "please don't show your rear end in school," and DD continues to do so and is pulled from class because of it and yada yada yada, you'll then encourage her not to show her bum at school? If you know this is the expectation to begin with, why not proactively have the conversation if you have cause to believe DD might need the conversation eventually?

My DD's current shorts THAT SHE WEARS TO SCHOOL comply with the dress code, for convenience not agreement, yet they are some of the shorts people usually say they consider too short. Sorry, but that's irrelevant to DD and I at that point.

We discuss the expectations and rules prior to major clothing purchases intended to be worn to someplace with rules or defined standards. Part of my role as a parent is to help DD make fully informed decisions. If she violates the dress code unintentionally or thoughtlessly on occasion, then yes it's on her to accept the consequences and we will revisit a chat about the expectations.

If DD chose to take a principled stand and violate the dress code for philosophical reasons, I may well support her while helping her look into alternate learning environments, but if we have chosen to be at a place when there was an alternative we are choosing to consent to being bound by the rules unless the rules will directly lead someone to predictable in advance harm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So you're agreeing that if the school policy states "do not reveal private body parts at school," and admin says "please don't show your rear end in school," and DD continues to do so and is pulled from class because of it and yada yada yada, you'll then encourage her not to show her bum at school? If you know this is the expectation to begin with, why not proactively have the conversation if you have cause to believe DD might need the conversation eventually?

I'm not the PP, but as far as I can tell, the PP's point was that the PP's daughter's clothing choices are

1. her business
2. the school's business, as far as her clothing choices violate the school dress code
3. not your business

If OP is speaking as person from a school, it is his/her business?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If OP is speaking as person from a school, it is his/her business?

If OP is the principal of a middle school, OP should not be wasting OP's time on DCUM telling parents of middle-school girls to not let their daughters wear short shorts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Honest question... could you please help me understand why those kinds of clothes are a problem? Thanks!

I get that certain places have rules, and while I disagree in some ways with most dress codes I can acknowledge that I think they should almost always be followed, but I don't actually understand why any sort of clothing is specifically bad.

I guess I'm rather clueless, or at least not mainstream in my views.

This is my understanding of why it's an issue. There are areas of the body that we consider private, personal. For boys and girls, the genitals and the buttocks, and for girls the chest. Adults expose or accentuate these areas when trying to attract other adults. They will wear revealing, close cut clothing. If a child wears clothing that mimics that sexual enhancement, we read it as "wrong" because we're reading it as a child doing something to sexually enhance themselves. Those of us who don't see this as a particular issue understand that a young child wearing a triangle-cut bikini is not sexually enhancing herself because there is nothing to sexually enhance - she is a child. Those who view it as a girl's/woman's responsibility to cater to the male gaze see the girl as doing something wrong because she's trying to sexually enhance herself.

Short shorts can make other people uncomfortable because they can reveal areas that we consider sexually important. The emphasis is placed on the girl to not make others feel uncomfortable, so that adults don't have to consider why they're viewing 11-13 year old children as sexual objects.

Bingo! Here's the interesting thing. The girls know about sex at this age and they want to look like the sexy TV stars and fashion models, but they don't want to attract glances from creepy old men. I just explained my objection to one of my daughter's clothing option in this way. "You're developing to look like a woman. If you wear things like this that show off your womanly parts, some men will look at you in a sexual way." She was flabbergasted and grossed out. She then defended her right to wear a bikini at our summer pool (where there are no creepy old men she thinks) and we discussed how that might be a better choice than at the beach under the glaring eyes of lots of strangers. We're still navigating how we set appropriate standards for my 12 year old, but I think this sort of open conversation about why certain things make me as her parent (and particularly her dad) uncomfortable are important for her to understand. Trying to educate her rather than just forbid tons of stuff. And NO her but cheeks don't hang out.

OK, but... there's another side to that. If SHE is uncomfortable by the fact that some people will possibly think of her based on her outfit, then it's totally legitimate for her to choose to avoid that. But, I hope that was your message, and not that she HAS TO care what anyone else thinks of however she dresses. That was my approach with my DD and the only one I personally think makes sense.

If she's comfortable in what she's wearing, great.

If someone else thinks a thing, thoughts are fine as long as their actions are appropriate (UNLESS DD has decided she doesn't want to be thought of that way, in which case altering her clothing choices may be the only option because no one can change another's thoughts).

She still has the absolute right to wear whatever she chooses and NOT have anyone act inappropriate with her. That's totally on the agent of the potential action, not anyone's DD the recipient.

To me, that message, "what people think doesn't need to be relevant to you unless it impacts your comfort; the important thing is that YOU like how you have chosen to dress" is usually the most important message to send about clothing, because the basic theme is applicable to so many other important topics.

I like this. I work in education, and too often, I have girls complaining to me that what people said about their outfits upset them. It's a tough line -- I don't think anyone has the right to make another person feel badly about themselves based on their choices or beliefs (which so often seems to be the case on here!), but at the same time, when what they're wearing overtly goes against the accepted social norms, it's not surprising that 12 and 13 year olds will be critical. Maybe we need to educate all people in how to be nicer to each other ...

Poster you're replying to... Yep, you've perfectly understood the point I was intending to convey to DD.

YES, exactly. People need to learn what is their business (things that impact them or harm someone else) and what isn't (everything else) and to be kind and accepting and not judge for non-harmful choices because there's nothing objectively wrong with anything that doesn't cause harm or a problem for someone not making the choice to accept that.

You sound like a great person and a great educator with that attitude; I hope you work at DD's school but regardless some students are lucky to have an influence like you in their lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am with OP.

So am I.
--Middle school teacher sick of seeing butts

Then send the girls to the principal office.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Honest question... could you please help me understand why those kinds of clothes are a problem? Thanks!

I get that certain places have rules, and while I disagree in some ways with most dress codes I can acknowledge that I think they should almost always be followed, but I don't actually understand why any sort of clothing is specifically bad.

I guess I'm rather clueless, or at least not mainstream in my views.

This is my understanding of why it's an issue. There are areas of the body that we consider private, personal. For boys and girls, the genitals and the buttocks, and for girls the chest. Adults expose or accentuate these areas when trying to attract other adults. They will wear revealing, close cut clothing. If a child wears clothing that mimics that sexual enhancement, we read it as "wrong" because we're reading it as a child doing something to sexually enhance themselves. Those of us who don't see this as a particular issue understand that a young child wearing a triangle-cut bikini is not sexually enhancing herself because there is nothing to sexually enhance - she is a child. Those who view it as a girl's/woman's responsibility to cater to the male gaze see the girl as doing something wrong because she's trying to sexually enhance herself.

Short shorts can make other people uncomfortable because they can reveal areas that we consider sexually important. The emphasis is placed on the girl to not make others feel uncomfortable, so that adults don't have to consider why they're viewing 11-13 year old children as sexual objects.

Bingo! Here's the interesting thing. The girls know about sex at this age and they want to look like the sexy TV stars and fashion models, but they don't want to attract glances from creepy old men. I just explained my objection to one of my daughter's clothing option in this way. "You're developing to look like a woman. If you wear things like this that show off your womanly parts, some men will look at you in a sexual way." She was flabbergasted and grossed out. She then defended her right to wear a bikini at our summer pool (where there are no creepy old men she thinks) and we discussed how that might be a better choice than at the beach under the glaring eyes of lots of strangers. We're still navigating how we set appropriate standards for my 12 year old, but I think this sort of open conversation about why certain things make me as her parent (and particularly her dad) uncomfortable are important for her to understand. Trying to educate her rather than just forbid tons of stuff. And NO her but cheeks don't hang out.

OK, but... there's another side to that. If SHE is uncomfortable by the fact that some people will possibly think of her based on her outfit, then it's totally legitimate for her to choose to avoid that. But, I hope that was your message, and not that she HAS TO care what anyone else thinks of however she dresses. That was my approach with my DD and the only one I personally think makes sense.

If she's comfortable in what she's wearing, great.

If someone else thinks a thing, thoughts are fine as long as their actions are appropriate (UNLESS DD has decided she doesn't want to be thought of that way, in which case altering her clothing choices may be the only option because no one can change another's thoughts).

She still has the absolute right to wear whatever she chooses and NOT have anyone act inappropriate with her. That's totally on the agent of the potential action, not anyone's DD the recipient.

To me, that message, "what people think doesn't need to be relevant to you unless it impacts your comfort; the important thing is that YOU like how you have chosen to dress" is usually the most important message to send about clothing, because the basic theme is applicable to so many other important topics.

I like this. I work in education, and too often, I have girls complaining to me that what people said about their outfits upset them. It's a tough line -- I don't think anyone has the right to make another person feel badly about themselves based on their choices or beliefs (which so often seems to be the case on here!), but at the same time, when what they're wearing overtly goes against the accepted social norms, it's not surprising that 12 and 13 year olds will be critical. Maybe we need to educate all people in how to be nicer to each other ...

Poster you're replying to... Yep, you've perfectly understood the point I was intending to convey to DD.

YES, exactly. People need to learn what is their business (things that impact them or harm someone else) and what isn't (everything else) and to be kind and accepting and not judge for non-harmful choices because there's nothing objectively wrong with anything that doesn't cause harm or a problem for someone not making the choice to accept that.

You sound like a great person and a great educator with that attitude; I hope you work at DD's school but regardless some students are lucky to have an influence like you in their lives.

I'm the Bingo PP. I think you're right but at some point the girls have to be taught that sexually suggestive clothes is sexually suggestive. They don't inherently know that. They don't know that some dance moves are mimicking sex acts unless you tell them so. My DD has a lot of body confidence and I love that and she will attract unwanted attention in the future as we all have. She needs to have as much information upon which to base her decisions as possible. She doesn't have as much world experience as I do in this department, so some explaining and guidance is necessary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Honest question... could you please help me understand why those kinds of clothes are a problem? Thanks!

I get that certain places have rules, and while I disagree in some ways with most dress codes I can acknowledge that I think they should almost always be followed, but I don't actually understand why any sort of clothing is specifically bad.

I guess I'm rather clueless, or at least not mainstream in my views.

This is my understanding of why it's an issue. There are areas of the body that we consider private, personal. For boys and girls, the genitals and the buttocks, and for girls the chest. Adults expose or accentuate these areas when trying to attract other adults. They will wear revealing, close cut clothing. If a child wears clothing that mimics that sexual enhancement, we read it as "wrong" because we're reading it as a child doing something to sexually enhance themselves. Those of us who don't see this as a particular issue understand that a young child wearing a triangle-cut bikini is not sexually enhancing herself because there is nothing to sexually enhance - she is a child. Those who view it as a girl's/woman's responsibility to cater to the male gaze see the girl as doing something wrong because she's trying to sexually enhance herself.

Short shorts can make other people uncomfortable because they can reveal areas that we consider sexually important. The emphasis is placed on the girl to not make others feel uncomfortable, so that adults don't have to consider why they're viewing 11-13 year old children as sexual objects.

Bingo! Here's the interesting thing. The girls know about sex at this age and they want to look like the sexy TV stars and fashion models, but they don't want to attract glances from creepy old men. I just explained my objection to one of my daughter's clothing option in this way. "You're developing to look like a woman. If you wear things like this that show off your womanly parts, some men will look at you in a sexual way." She was flabbergasted and grossed out. She then defended her right to wear a bikini at our summer pool (where there are no creepy old men she thinks) and we discussed how that might be a better choice than at the beach under the glaring eyes of lots of strangers. We're still navigating how we set appropriate standards for my 12 year old, but I think this sort of open conversation about why certain things make me as her parent (and particularly her dad) uncomfortable are important for her to understand. Trying to educate her rather than just forbid tons of stuff. And NO her but cheeks don't hang out.

OK, but... there's another side to that. If SHE is uncomfortable by the fact that some people will possibly think of her based on her outfit, then it's totally legitimate for her to choose to avoid that. But, I hope that was your message, and not that she HAS TO care what anyone else thinks of however she dresses. That was my approach with my DD and the only one I personally think makes sense.

If she's comfortable in what she's wearing, great.

If someone else thinks a thing, thoughts are fine as long as their actions are appropriate (UNLESS DD has decided she doesn't want to be thought of that way, in which case altering her clothing choices may be the only option because no one can change another's thoughts).

She still has the absolute right to wear whatever she chooses and NOT have anyone act inappropriate with her. That's totally on the agent of the potential action, not anyone's DD the recipient.

To me, that message, "what people think doesn't need to be relevant to you unless it impacts your comfort; the important thing is that YOU like how you have chosen to dress" is usually the most important message to send about clothing, because the basic theme is applicable to so many other important topics.

I like this. I work in education, and too often, I have girls complaining to me that what people said about their outfits upset them. It's a tough line -- I don't think anyone has the right to make another person feel badly about themselves based on their choices or beliefs (which so often seems to be the case on here!), but at the same time, when what they're wearing overtly goes against the accepted social norms, it's not surprising that 12 and 13 year olds will be critical. Maybe we need to educate all people in how to be nicer to each other ...

Poster you're replying to... Yep, you've perfectly understood the point I was intending to convey to DD.

YES, exactly. People need to learn what is their business (things that impact them or harm someone else) and what isn't (everything else) and to be kind and accepting and not judge for non-harmful choices because there's nothing objectively wrong with anything that doesn't cause harm or a problem for someone not making the choice to accept that.

You sound like a great person and a great educator with that attitude; I hope you work at DD's school but regardless some students are lucky to have an influence like you in their lives.

I'm the Bingo PP. I think you're right but at some point the girls have to be taught that sexually suggestive clothes is sexually suggestive. They don't inherently know that. They don't know that some dance moves are mimicking sex acts unless you tell them so. My DD has a lot of body confidence and I love that and she will attract unwanted attention in the future as we all have. She needs to have as much information upon which to base her decisions as possible. She doesn't have as much world experience as I do in this department, so some explaining and guidance is necessary.

Absolutely, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. One of my roles as a parent is helping DD make fully informed decisions. We definitely discuss what our culture has decided about such things, and consequently what many people may think, even if we then have to discuss how and why I think our culture's attitude/approach is messed up. I almost always think our culture has a messed up attitude towards anything related to gender/gender norms/people's bodies/anything to do even slightly with sexuality. But I definitely ensure DD knows the mainstream line of thought, because like it or not that's the world we live in and the way most people with whom we interact view things. That's important to keep in mind.